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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
Thanks Pelihu, another great edition!

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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
pelihu wrote:
So, as I see it, this is probably the most important aspect to successful recruiting. Etiquette includes not just manners when you sit down at dinner, but also how you act at company presentations, how you behave at events, and perhaps most importantly how you interact with fellow students. So, let's try to look at each step of the recruiting process.

<snip>
Firms absolutely definitely notice when people are too pushy, and they don't like it. I have many many examples of people who are plenty smart but just didn't have any self-awareness and ended up making no closed lists. I suggest supporting your fellow classmates,


I am somewhat surprised by this. I am not surprised that there are pushy jerks in B-school but, given that Darden is famous for being collaborative, why would they have selected Darden (or vice-versa)? Does someone from the school, perhaps career development, work with these people and try to point them in the right direction? If getting an interview by bidding for the last 25% of available interview slots is not productive, (after all the firm already knows that your are a poor fit) then these people are on the road to ruin. Perhaps their learning team could stage an intervention... :)

pelihu wrote:
<snip>
In the US, you should hold your fork in your left hand and cut with the knife in your right hand, then switch your fork to your right hand to deliver food to your mouth. Generally, you don't want to 'point-and-shoot' by keeping the fork in your left hand to deliver food to your mouth.



Ah, this might be a hard habit to break. I grew up in house with one American parent and one outlander and was given a choice at an early age that was basically, "pick one side of the ocean and stick with it." It is funny how those lessons that your parents tried to drum into you at early age seem more valuable when faced with eating in the company of ones (potential) employer.
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
helpslip wrote:
pelihu wrote:
<snip>
In the US, you should hold your fork in your left hand and cut with the knife in your right hand, then switch your fork to your right hand to deliver food to your mouth. Generally, you don't want to 'point-and-shoot' by keeping the fork in your left hand to deliver food to your mouth.



Ah, this might be a hard habit to break. I grew up in house with one American parent and one outlander and was given a choice at an early age that was basically, "pick one side of the ocean and stick with it." It is funny how those lessons that your parents tried to drum into you at early age seem more valuable when faced with eating in the company of ones (potential) employer.
Help!


Same here, we just don't do that over here. Will be hard to practice, too, as noone else does it. But oh well, maybe I'll get an internationals-bonus. ;)
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
I think an important thing I have seen people let slip is that they forget who they are recruiting with, and how that industry will work - and that applies to all industry sets. This will make sense, I promise.

Letting your guard down, being stupid and blowing up at a bank (hey, it's what I know) can have a lot larger repercussions than a lot of people like to think. They often think that it will be a bit bad, but it is only one bank and there are twelve.

While this is true, you have to remember that you will, typically, recruit with alum (assuming your school has a solid presence at the company). These alum were where you are about 4-5 years ago. Read that as they made a lot of friends at school, recruiting for the same industry. Good friends who became their drinking buddies, and meet and speak to regularly - still. If you make a fool of yourself, you have to consider the way it will go. The person who sees it, if you blow up badly, might just go and call his friend - an alum at another bank - to tell the tale. Maybe two or three people - tip them off. Consequently they may pass it on to another couple. Quickly you can find that you have suddenly written off about half of the industry, or at least put yourself on a weaker stand-point to your peers, and people are watching out for you.

I have seen a few people blow up badly, and their interviews across the industry were significantly effected. I am pretty confident this is why - the alum want to look after the name of the school as much as anyone, and will share information. Blowing up at some companies is likely to happen - it just does in really overt ways. What you really must avoid is doing something that would ever make you think they might want to tell others about it, because then you are in big trouble.

I know this all may sound a bit daft, but I have seen some very smart people wipe themselves out across NYC industry-wide by losing their cool, saying things in the heat of the moment and just ruining their recruitment as a result.
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
This is an excellent thread and reminds me of all the valuable lessons I learned in the undergrad fraternity days!

One more suggestion:

For the brief time that you're actually drinking something (water, wine, etc.) don't look around the table - focus both eyes on your drink. We were charged $1 every time we were caught looking around while drinking at our formal dinners!
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
helpslip wrote:
pelihu wrote:
So, as I see it, this is probably the most important aspect to successful recruiting. Etiquette includes not just manners when you sit down at dinner, but also how you act at company presentations, how you behave at events, and perhaps most importantly how you interact with fellow students. So, let's try to look at each step of the recruiting process.

<snip>
Firms absolutely definitely notice when people are too pushy, and they don't like it. I have many many examples of people who are plenty smart but just didn't have any self-awareness and ended up making no closed lists. I suggest supporting your fellow classmates,


I am somewhat surprised by this. I am not surprised that there are pushy jerks in B-school but, given that Darden is famous for being collaborative, why would they have selected Darden (or vice-versa)? Does someone from the school, perhaps career development, work with these people and try to point them in the right direction? If getting an interview by bidding for the last 25% of available interview slots is not productive, (after all the firm already knows that your are a poor fit) then these people are on the road to ruin. Perhaps their learning team could stage an intervention... :)

Help!


You are right about Darden's collaborative nature, which really makes the few people that are jackasses stand out. Darden does interview 100% of admitted students, and I believe all those in the US are required to interview on campus. This definitely goes a long way towards weeding out the jerks, but it's just one 30-45 minute meeting and some people get through. Also, some international students interview locally, so standards can vary a bit in those cases. Extreme competitiveness is viewed as a plus in certain cultures.

I completely agree with 3underscore that word gets around quickly. I a few stories that illustrate this point; the first is from our Week on Wall Street. I was invited to dinner with a firm (we'll call it firm A) on Monday night. On Tuesday night, I had dinner with another firm B (both would be considered among the 3 most popular for this year) and the person I sat next to asked what I did the night before. I told them I had dinner with Firm A and he responded, oh yeah, you sat next to such and such. How was that? It's unbelievable how quickly word got around - they knew exactly who was invited to closed events at other firms. I have another example from interview season. A firm (firm C) that I had become well acquainted with didn't make me an offer. We both knew this was perhaps because they weren't a "top 5 bank" and I had great traction most of the top 5 and was unlikely to accept their offer. I did in fact receive an offer later that evening at about 7PM from firm D. I joined firm D for a few cocktails, and when I returned home at 10PM that night, I had an email waiting from firm C basically saying we're sorry things didn't work out but we heard it through the grapevine that you got good news from firm D. I was just thinking, how in the heck did they get this info? I just barely found out myself and I didn't tell anyone yet! So, yes, if you make an ass out of yourself at an event, a lot of other banks will know about it as well.

Regarding the 'point and shoot' eating technique, I think it's fine if you are European. People seem to accept that that is the custom there. I will also add that it is totally inappropriate to shovel food into your mouth, or to grip your spoon or fork with your whole hand. It's hard to describe, so an etiquette book or video would be valuable if there are any questions.
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
I do have to add. Western etiquette is a cakewalk compared to Far Eastern etiquette.

If you ever have a business meeting in Volcanic baths!!!!! :lol:
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
I understand such things are de rigeur these days and I genuinely appreciate the effort pelihu is put into this thread. But I am actually a little disappointed that such "Western" notions of etiquette play such a huge role in recruiting even in this day and age.

In an ideal world, a lot more cultural sensitivity would be shown and a student would be recruited based purely on his ability and not how he cuts his food, how he holds his glass, or where he places his bread plate etc. Or is the whole "we seek international diversity" bit a pure marketing gimmick.

I did not grow up in a culture with such a ritualistic approach to dining, so maybe this is just a rant. I know I will have trouble with such things later on in my career. :|
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
I know what you mean. In my culture, eating with a spoon or some such utensil rather than with one's bare hand is considered disrespectul to the food we consume. I have never used a fork/spoon before coming to the US. Sometimes, these etiquette rules sound very silly, but having decided to compete in the US job market we will have to adapt or perish. Sigh!

Nevertheless, great insight pelihu. Your guide is extremely useful to me.

solaris1 wrote:
I understand such things are de rigeur these days and I genuinely appreciate the effort pelihu is put into this thread. But I am actually a little disappointed that such "Western" notions of etiquette play such a huge role in recruiting even in this day and age.

In an ideal world, a lot more cultural sensitivity would be shown and a student would be recruited based purely on his ability and not how he cuts his food, how he holds his glass, or where he places his bread plate etc. Or is the whole "we seek international diversity" bit a pure marketing gimmick.

I did not grow up in a culture with such a ritualistic approach to dining, so maybe this is just a rant. I know I will have trouble with such things later on in my career. :|
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
ncprasad wrote:
I know what you mean. In my culture, eating with a spoon or some such utensil rather than with one's bare hand is considered disrespectul to the food we consume. I have never used a fork/spoon before coming to the US. Sometimes, these etiquette rules sound very silly, but having decided to compete in the US job market we will have to adapt or perish. Sigh!

Nevertheless, great insight pelihu. Your guide is extremely useful to me.


Here's a tip.... Use the cultural diversity when eating to strike up interesting conversation :) . People are generally interested in cultural differences, and if you show yourself to be adaptable in this area, it will add extra plus points when applying to an international company. You're not going to send a culturally ignorant person on an international business trip so being culturally aware has its advantages too.

I learned a lot when i was in Bangalore about Indian culture.
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
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solaris1 wrote:
I understand such things are de rigeur these days and I genuinely appreciate the effort pelihu is put into this thread. But I am actually a little disappointed that such "Western" notions of etiquette play such a huge role in recruiting even in this day and age.

In an ideal world, a lot more cultural sensitivity would be shown and a student would be recruited based purely on his ability and not how he cuts his food, how he holds his glass, or where he places his bread plate etc. Or is the whole "we seek international diversity" bit a pure marketing gimmick.


I think it is more market appropriate, and Pelihu is guiding for US recruiting. I am certain that Asia and Europe are entirely different in the way that people engage, etiquette and a whole manner of other elements. It is more that if you want to work in a market and represent the company there, they need to be confident you can interact successfully as a sales-person in that market. That itself is a culturally sensitive thing - some bits are more important than others dependent on your background and ability anyway, but they need to be comfortable that it won't negatively affect the company.
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
I dont eat meat, and it always embarrasses my host when i mention that. Not tht i care too much abt it and am happy with it. While i do reassure that it is fine, i usually end up with a sandwich/Panini and thts difficult to eat with a fork. I have to use my hands. Help!!!
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
toDoorNot wrote:
I dont eat meat, and it always embarrasses my host when i mention that. Not tht i care too much abt it and am happy with it. While i do reassure that it is fine, i usually end up with a sandwich/Panini and thts difficult to eat with a fork. I have to use my hands. Help!!!


Most dinners I've been to include nicer options than a sandwich - recruiters usually like to wine and dine you a bit and will give you better chow. At a great restaurant in Durham I had this fabulous thing with winter vegetables, phylo, mushrooms and 6 shakes of some kind of magic. My point is, you probably won't get stuck with a sandwich.

On a similar note, I used to be vegetarian. I'm not anymore, but still don't eat much meat. I often want to get the veggie item, but do wonder if the recruiters might judge....people DO get defensive around vegetarians. So far, so good, I guess, but I wonder.

I would add one comment to Pelihu's detailed desciptions: While there are definitely accepted etiquette codes, they are not written in stone and do vary. For example, I did an etiquette dinner in college with a guy who used to be head snobby butler or some such at the White House. He actually prefers the "point and shoot" method, and said it's common enough in the states. He - and others, according to him - find that the American style of switching hands is awkward and inefficient.

My point isn't that one thing is right or wrong, but that there is some variance. And while it may vary by industry (I spent time with consultants, GMs, and commercial bankers, but no IB), in my experiences I didn't get the feeling that the recruiters were being very particular about the highest-level niceties. Don't chew with your mouth open and do be part of the natural flow of the meal. But I didn't see many people worrying overly much about exactly where you've placed your fork. I am not surprised that IB seems different.
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
Oh, and Peli, what about not eating until the recruiter starts? People tend to take that cue from the recruiter, though it can be awkward if the recruiter's chatting away and we're all thinking about our cooling salmon!
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
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Oh, and Peli, what about not eating until the recruiter starts? People tend to take that cue from the recruiter, though it can be awkward if the recruiter's chatting away and we're all thinking about our cooling salmon!


Definitely agree with that. There's generally someone from the firm that's in charge, generally the most senior person there. It's a good idea to wait until they start before digging in. Perhaps even more important, you should definitely wait until everyone at the table has been served before starting.

I also agree that the applicability of these guidelines vary depending on industry; and according to individual. Some people won't care, while others will definitely notice. It's better to be well polished on the basics because it's silly to get dinged for something like this - and I can assure you it happens. Generally, IB seems to be more formalized, perhaps because they host more sit-down dinners and senior bankers tend to get involved in the recruiting process. If you're just having dinner with some people from HR or something like that then things are different; it's also different if you're mostly dealing with more junior people.
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
So I can`t butter my bread, shout `Food Fight!!` and throw it at the head recruiter? :lol:
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Re: Guide to Recruiting and Schmoozing - Part 3 - Etiquette [#permalink]
Thanks peli and toga (for the Asian perspective) for the great guidelines!

As AAu said, these are only guidelines and are not set rules, but if you just happen to be with recruiters who really care about these things (like the one who said he would not interview anyone who wears a black suit), then you will be shooting yourself in the foot. Don't stand out in a bad way, that's the key thing.

Question for peli, what if you're left handed? Do you cut with your left and hold the fork in the right hand, then switch to eat with the left? :)
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