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A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce

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A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 31 Aug 2004, 23:51
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A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States [#permalink] New post 05 Dec 2013, 10:00
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bagdbmba wrote:
Hi Shraddha,
I've two possible explanations for this sentence so,please let me know whether any one of these is correct, if at all ?

1.Here, if we say that per the sentence and the meaning it's clear that 'till 1972 municipalities were allowed to dump a certain amount of phosphate into the Great Lakes but a 1972 agreement reduced this amount'. Now isn't it evident that the phrase "A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount" provides a time frame that clearly indicates that dumping was there before this agreement in 1972. So no need to use past perfect 'had been allowed to dump' explicitly.


This is not the reason that past perfect cannot be used here. We are not referring to the act of dumping itself, but to a reduction in the AMOUNT that can be dumped. So, it is illogical to say that a 1972 agreement can reduce the amount that was dumped before the agreement was made. The agreement can only reduce the amount that is dumped in the future. So, it makes no sense to use the past perfect tense here.

bagdbmba wrote:
2. 'allowed to dump' and 'reduced this amount' are NOT really related - dumping can occur even if there is no REDUCTION in 1972. So, two unrelated events in the past - no need to use past perfect.

Please let me know your thoughts.


Again, the way to eliminate past perfect tense here is not to say that the two events are unrelated, but to focus on the fact that the reduction is to be done after the agreement is made.

I hope this helps! :-)

Regards,
Meghna
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 07 Jan 2014, 07:51
rahul wrote:
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities


the agreement already happened, so present tense is wrong.. C/E are gone.

"had been allowed", distorts intended meaning. It implies that the agreement in itself reduced allowed amounts of phosphates, AFTER the phosphates had been dumped. In other words, putting restrictions on something that had already happened. A is gone

B makes the same mistake but not on "allowed", but on the actual action of dumping. "reduced the amount that X had been dumping".. an agreement is not a time machine that can go back in time and reduce something that already happened.

D is not only the best because it doesn't distort meaning, it also implies that the restrictions put forth by the agreement still apply, to this day. This makes perfect sense.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 16 Feb 2014, 07:09
rahul wrote:
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities


Pl review my analysis

Meaning

Agreement to reduce the amt of phosphate that was allowed to be dumped

POE

1) A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United
States reduced the amount of phosphates
2) that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the
Great Lakes.

SV correct
Agreement...reduced
municipalities...had been allowed

Modifier
into the Great Lakes...is correctly placed

Meaning Correct

Parallelism
B/w C and the US...correct

Pronoun-

Idiom
allowed to...correct

Other-

Verb

Here though even after the agreement municipalities will dump the waste (of reduced amt) the sequence is

Municipalities allowed to dump waste --->Agreement to reduce waste----> Municipalities allowed to dump less waste

POE A correct

As per the sequence it is correct to state that municipalities had been allowed, because agreement happened later

So why is D correct here?
Also, what is the difference in amt of phosphate and phosphate amount
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 27 Feb 2014, 04:04
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jrashish wrote:
rahul wrote:
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities


Pl review my analysis

Meaning

Agreement to reduce the amt of phosphate that was allowed to be dumped

POE

1) A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United
States reduced the amount of phosphates
2) that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the
Great Lakes.

SV correct
Agreement...reduced
municipalities...had been allowed

Modifier
into the Great Lakes...is correctly placed

Meaning Correct

Parallelism
B/w C and the US...correct

Pronoun-

Idiom
allowed to...correct

Other-

Verb

Here though even after the agreement municipalities will dump the waste (of reduced amt) the sequence is

Municipalities allowed to dump waste --->Agreement to reduce waste----> Municipalities allowed to dump less waste

POE A correct

As per the sequence it is correct to state that municipalities had been allowed, because agreement happened later

So why is D correct here?
Also, what is the difference in amt of phosphate and phosphate amount


Dear Ashish,

As I explained in my post above, according to the intended meaning of the sentence, the agreement can only reduce the amount of phosphates that can be dumped AFTER the agreement is made. "Had been dumped" refers to the amount that was dumped BEFORE the agreement was made. So, logically, it doesn't make sense to say that the agreement can reduce this amount. The correct answer must use either the simple past tense or the present tense.

There is no real difference in meaning between "amount of phosphates" and "phosphate amount", but idiomatically, we use "number of" and "amount of". So, "amount of phosphates" is better.

I hope this helps with your doubts.

Regards,
Meghna
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A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States.. [#permalink] New post 30 Mar 2014, 16:50
2. A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.
(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities


Spoiler:

The OA is D, but I fail to understand why A is incorrect. The bone of contention is "had been allowed" in A vs "are allowed" in D.

I searched on forums and people have mentioned that dumping is an ongoing process, hence "are allowed" in D is correct. Experts have mentioned that since what has already been dumped cannot be reduced, hence "reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump" in A is incorrect. But I think if the choice A was "reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had dumped", then it was wrong, since you cant go back in time and reduce what has been dumped, but this question is about what has been "allowed" to dump.

E.g. municipalities were allowed to dump 20 tons per day before 1972 and after the agreement they were allowed to dump 15 tons per day, so the agreement reduced what municipalities had been allowed to dump (he 20 tons limit).

Can experts explain why A is wrong?
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 30 Mar 2014, 22:21
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Re: [#permalink] New post 01 Apr 2014, 19:47
amit_upasani wrote:
I picked D as it better follows the intent of the sentence...

"agreement reduced the amount that the municipalities are allowed to dump"....that the agreement refers to dumping that is ongoing is best expressed here.

"agreement reduced the amount that the municipalities had been allowed to dump" the agreement could not really have reduced the amount that had already been dumped, right?


But my friend there's a discrepancy here. What you are saying can be true for the sentence:

- agreement reduced the amount that the municipalities had dumped

Are you getting it? what you are saying is 'agreement could not really have reduced the amount that had already been dumped', well the truth is that the municipality isn't reducing that amount either. It's reducing the amount that is ALLOWED to be dumped.

the statement in the option says

- agreement reduced the amount that the municipalities had been allowed to dump

Something was allowed before the timeframe referred and then the AMOUNT ALLOWED was reduced.

Notice the AMOUNT is NOT reduced but the AMOUNT ALLOWED.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2014, 04:24
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 18 Apr 2014, 21:17
souvik101990 wrote:



Hi Souvik, I saw the explanation and copied the answer here to keep the discussion focused -- hope that's OK.

"Now, since the agreement is in the past, I cannot use a present tense verb. So "reduces" does not work at all. Eliminate C and E.

Now let's think about tenses.
If I use past perfect, what does it mean really? It means that the agreement reduced something that happened before the passage of the agreement. SO I cannot use the perfect past tense. Eliminate A and B.
D is the correct answer "


I understand WHAT you're trying to say about not being able to use past perfect but for some reason, I cannot seem to decipher the meaning of A & B. The way I read A & B is as follows - "The agreement b/w Can and US reduced the amount of phosphates(that will be dumped in the future) and it has been reduced(by an arbitrary %) compared to what they were allowed to dump". I know it's wrong because of all the other explanations but I can't see why? Are there other simple examples that could demonstrate why i'm not understanding this part?
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 20 Apr 2014, 11:48
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Quote:
I understand WHAT you're trying to say about not being able to use past perfect but for some reason, I cannot seem to decipher the meaning of A & B. The way I read A & B is as follows - "The agreement b/w Can and US reduced the amount of phosphates(that will be dumped in the future) and it has been reduced(by an arbitrary %) compared to what they were allowed to dump". I know it's wrong because of all the other explanations but I can't see why? Are there other simple examples that could demonstrate why i'm not understanding this part?


Okay
Let's look at this again

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump

1. Agreement happened in 1972
2. People are dumbing a lot of waste before 1972
3. Agreement prohibits people from dumping more than a certain amount.

Now what A is trying to say is that the agreement reduces the waste that HAS ALREADY BEEN DUMPED. That's not possible is it?

Does that help?

(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping

Same
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 22 Apr 2014, 00:48
rahul wrote:
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities


Analysis Done :-

1. E option is NG as allowed for is unidiomatic.
2.Options B C are NG as amount of phosphate = phosphate's anount and not phosphate amount.
Now I can not decide between A and D.

I chose A as my understanding of the OS is : Prior to agreement municipalities dumped hence past pefect tense is Ok.

Experts pl help

1.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 24 Apr 2014, 20:32
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purnima wrote:
rahul wrote:
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities


Analysis Done :-

1. E option is NG as allowed for is unidiomatic.
2.Options B C are NG as amount of phosphate = phosphate's anount and not phosphate amount.
Now I can not decide between A and D.

I chose A as my understanding of the OS is : Prior to agreement municipalities dumped hence past pefect tense is Ok.

Experts pl help

1.


Dear Purnima,
Thank you for your query. :)

Meghna has addressed the tense issue with choice A beautifully. Please have a look at her post above. If you still have any doubt, then kindly post your question and analysis keeping in mind the analysis Meghna has provided in her post. We’ll take our discussion forward from there. :)

As regards your analysis of other choices, I feel that you are relying heavily on your understanding of idiom issues in these choices and less on the tense and meaning issues in them. Accordingly, I would like to request you to kindly post a thorough meaning analysis of the original sentence and identify the tense and meaning issues, along with any other issues that the choices may have.

Regards,
Neeti.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 15 May 2014, 05:23
An agreement that occurred in 1972 is correctly
described with the past tense verb reduced. Since
the dumping continued after the date of the
agreement, the past perfect verb had been allowed
should instead be the present are allowed (if the
agreement remained in eff ect when the sentence
was written) or the past were allowed (if the
agreement was no longer in eff ect when the
sentence was written). Since were allowed does not
appear in any of the options, we can assume that
the correct verb tense is are allowed. Th e phrase
amount of phosphates is clear and idiomatically
correct, whereas phosphate amount is not idiomatic.

A) Had been allowed should be are allowed.
B ) The phosphate amount should be the amount of
phosphates; the omission of some form of
allow is incorrect since the agreement
changed not the amount dumped, but the
amount permitted to be dumped.
C) Present tense reduces should be the past tense
reduced; the phosphate amount should be the
amount of phosphates; have been allowed
should be are allowed.
D) Correct. Th e past tense reduced is correctly
used in this sentence to describe a past
action, and the present tense are allowed is
used to describe the present situation.
E) Present tense reduces should be the past tense
reduced; allowed for dumping is an incorrect
idiom; allowed for dumping by municipalities
is awkward.
The correct answer is D
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 11 Jun 2014, 08:04
Correct: D
An agreement that occurred in 1972 is correctly described with the past tense verb reduced. Since the dumping continued after the date of the agreement, the past perfect verb had been allowed should instead be the present are allowed (if the agreement remained in effect when the sentence was written) or the past were allowed( If the agreement was no longer in effect when the sentence was written). Since were allowed does not appear in any of the options,we can assume that the correct verb tense is are allowed. The phrase amount of phosphates is clear and idiomatically correct, whereas phosphate amount is not idiomatic.
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Re: [#permalink] New post 11 Jun 2014, 20:14
amit_upasani wrote:
I picked D as it better follows the intent of the sentence...

"agreement reduced the amount that the municipalities are allowed to dump"....that the agreement refers to dumping that is ongoing is best expressed here.

"agreement reduced the amount that the municipalities had been allowed to dump" the agreement could not really have reduced the amount that had already been dumped, right?



Makes sense .. I opted for D and this explanation makes sense as to why D is right.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 24 Jun 2014, 05:34
I will go with D

There was an agreement in 1972.
The agreement puts a limit on amount of phosphates.
That limit was put into effect from 1972 till present date.
Municipalities are still allowed to dump phosphates in Great Lakes but the amount is reduced.


I think D is clear in tense and meaning.

A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 19 Jul 2014, 03:35
Can any GMAT verbal experts explain why D is the right answer in OG ? I find A to be right like most of the people above me in this thread
Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce   [#permalink] 19 Jul 2014, 03:35
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