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A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce

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A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 31 Aug 2004, 23:51
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A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States [#permalink] New post 05 Dec 2013, 10:00
Expert's post
bagdbmba wrote:
Hi Shraddha,
I've two possible explanations for this sentence so,please let me know whether any one of these is correct, if at all ?

1.Here, if we say that per the sentence and the meaning it's clear that 'till 1972 municipalities were allowed to dump a certain amount of phosphate into the Great Lakes but a 1972 agreement reduced this amount'. Now isn't it evident that the phrase "A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount" provides a time frame that clearly indicates that dumping was there before this agreement in 1972. So no need to use past perfect 'had been allowed to dump' explicitly.


This is not the reason that past perfect cannot be used here. We are not referring to the act of dumping itself, but to a reduction in the AMOUNT that can be dumped. So, it is illogical to say that a 1972 agreement can reduce the amount that was dumped before the agreement was made. The agreement can only reduce the amount that is dumped in the future. So, it makes no sense to use the past perfect tense here.

bagdbmba wrote:
2. 'allowed to dump' and 'reduced this amount' are NOT really related - dumping can occur even if there is no REDUCTION in 1972. So, two unrelated events in the past - no need to use past perfect.

Please let me know your thoughts.


Again, the way to eliminate past perfect tense here is not to say that the two events are unrelated, but to focus on the fact that the reduction is to be done after the agreement is made.

I hope this helps! :-)

Regards,
Meghna
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 07 Jan 2014, 07:51
rahul wrote:
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities


the agreement already happened, so present tense is wrong.. C/E are gone.

"had been allowed", distorts intended meaning. It implies that the agreement in itself reduced allowed amounts of phosphates, AFTER the phosphates had been dumped. In other words, putting restrictions on something that had already happened. A is gone

B makes the same mistake but not on "allowed", but on the actual action of dumping. "reduced the amount that X had been dumping".. an agreement is not a time machine that can go back in time and reduce something that already happened.

D is not only the best because it doesn't distort meaning, it also implies that the restrictions put forth by the agreement still apply, to this day. This makes perfect sense.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 16 Feb 2014, 07:09
rahul wrote:
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities


Pl review my analysis

Meaning

Agreement to reduce the amt of phosphate that was allowed to be dumped

POE

1) A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United
States reduced the amount of phosphates
2) that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the
Great Lakes.

SV correct
Agreement...reduced
municipalities...had been allowed

Modifier
into the Great Lakes...is correctly placed

Meaning Correct

Parallelism
B/w C and the US...correct

Pronoun-

Idiom
allowed to...correct

Other-

Verb

Here though even after the agreement municipalities will dump the waste (of reduced amt) the sequence is

Municipalities allowed to dump waste --->Agreement to reduce waste----> Municipalities allowed to dump less waste

POE A correct

As per the sequence it is correct to state that municipalities had been allowed, because agreement happened later

So why is D correct here?
Also, what is the difference in amt of phosphate and phosphate amount
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 27 Feb 2014, 04:04
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Expert's post
jrashish wrote:
rahul wrote:
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities


Pl review my analysis

Meaning

Agreement to reduce the amt of phosphate that was allowed to be dumped

POE

1) A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United
States reduced the amount of phosphates
2) that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the
Great Lakes.

SV correct
Agreement...reduced
municipalities...had been allowed

Modifier
into the Great Lakes...is correctly placed

Meaning Correct

Parallelism
B/w C and the US...correct

Pronoun-

Idiom
allowed to...correct

Other-

Verb

Here though even after the agreement municipalities will dump the waste (of reduced amt) the sequence is

Municipalities allowed to dump waste --->Agreement to reduce waste----> Municipalities allowed to dump less waste

POE A correct

As per the sequence it is correct to state that municipalities had been allowed, because agreement happened later

So why is D correct here?
Also, what is the difference in amt of phosphate and phosphate amount


Dear Ashish,

As I explained in my post above, according to the intended meaning of the sentence, the agreement can only reduce the amount of phosphates that can be dumped AFTER the agreement is made. "Had been dumped" refers to the amount that was dumped BEFORE the agreement was made. So, logically, it doesn't make sense to say that the agreement can reduce this amount. The correct answer must use either the simple past tense or the present tense.

There is no real difference in meaning between "amount of phosphates" and "phosphate amount", but idiomatically, we use "number of" and "amount of". So, "amount of phosphates" is better.

I hope this helps with your doubts.

Regards,
Meghna
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A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States.. [#permalink] New post 30 Mar 2014, 16:50
2. A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.
(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities


Spoiler:

The OA is D, but I fail to understand why A is incorrect. The bone of contention is "had been allowed" in A vs "are allowed" in D.

I searched on forums and people have mentioned that dumping is an ongoing process, hence "are allowed" in D is correct. Experts have mentioned that since what has already been dumped cannot be reduced, hence "reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump" in A is incorrect. But I think if the choice A was "reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had dumped", then it was wrong, since you cant go back in time and reduce what has been dumped, but this question is about what has been "allowed" to dump.

E.g. municipalities were allowed to dump 20 tons per day before 1972 and after the agreement they were allowed to dump 15 tons per day, so the agreement reduced what municipalities had been allowed to dump (he 20 tons limit).

Can experts explain why A is wrong?
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 30 Mar 2014, 22:21
Expert's post
Mereged similar topic

See the above explanation
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Re: [#permalink] New post 01 Apr 2014, 19:47
amit_upasani wrote:
I picked D as it better follows the intent of the sentence...

"agreement reduced the amount that the municipalities are allowed to dump"....that the agreement refers to dumping that is ongoing is best expressed here.

"agreement reduced the amount that the municipalities had been allowed to dump" the agreement could not really have reduced the amount that had already been dumped, right?


But my friend there's a discrepancy here. What you are saying can be true for the sentence:

- agreement reduced the amount that the municipalities had dumped

Are you getting it? what you are saying is 'agreement could not really have reduced the amount that had already been dumped', well the truth is that the municipality isn't reducing that amount either. It's reducing the amount that is ALLOWED to be dumped.

the statement in the option says

- agreement reduced the amount that the municipalities had been allowed to dump

Something was allowed before the timeframe referred and then the AMOUNT ALLOWED was reduced.

Notice the AMOUNT is NOT reduced but the AMOUNT ALLOWED.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2014, 04:24
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce   [#permalink] 04 Apr 2014, 04:24
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