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A newly discovered painting on wooden panel by Michelangelo

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A newly discovered painting on wooden panel by Michelangelo [#permalink] New post 06 Aug 2006, 10:35
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A newly discovered painting on wooden panel by Michelangelo must have been completed after 1507 but before 1509. It cannot have been painted earlier than 1507 because one of its central figures carries a coin that was not minted until that year. It cannot have been painted after 1509 because it contains a pigment that Michelangelo is known to have abandoned when a cheaper alternative became available in that year.

Which of the following is an assumption on which the argument depends?


A) No stocks of the abandoned pigment existed after 1509.

B) Michelangelo did not work on the painting over the course of several years.

C) The coin depicted in the painting was known to general public in 1507.

D) The wooden panel on which the painting was executed cannot be tested accurately for age.

E) Michelangelo's painting style did not change between 1507 and 1509.
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Last edited by akkane on 17 Apr 2013, 16:15, edited 2 times in total.
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 [#permalink] New post 26 Aug 2007, 12:41
bkk145 wrote:
asaf wrote:
...For C, it is essentially restating part of the argument...

bkk145, I think C gives a different ideas than what we have in the stem. Can you read it again and C if you agree with me? and if you do then how would you elliminate C?


You know that the coin was minted that year from the stem. So it doesn't matter, in my opinion, whether the public know about the coin before or after. It is still minted that year. I guess I should have said irrelevant, not restating part of the argument.


So if Angelo knew about the coin prior to that year, doesn't that mean he could also know how it was going to look or appear?
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 [#permalink] New post 26 Aug 2007, 12:49
I would go with D. as it says the same with the passage, since we cannot find the age of it. the passage is based on that assumption.
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 [#permalink] New post 26 Aug 2007, 13:05
asaf wrote:
bkk145 wrote:
asaf wrote:
...For C, it is essentially restating part of the argument...

bkk145, I think C gives a different ideas than what we have in the stem. Can you read it again and C if you agree with me? and if you do then how would you elliminate C?


You know that the coin was minted that year from the stem. So it doesn't matter, in my opinion, whether the public know about the coin before or after. It is still minted that year. I guess I should have said irrelevant, not restating part of the argument.


So if Angelo knew about the coin prior to that year, doesn't that mean he could also know how it was going to look or appear?


he could, but you don't know if MA is in general public or not. He might not be in general public or might be. Since you don't know about that, it is irrelevant.
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Re: CR - Michel Angelo [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2007, 10:04
Stem clearly states that MichelAngelo made a switch to use a cheaper option after 1509. So, we can elliminate B right?
Wrong. OA is B.
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 [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2007, 10:10
I agree the (B) is correct..............but why is (A) wrong?

If MA had the stock of "abandoned pigment", he could have used it
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 [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2007, 10:34
A is a strech...
Just because he abondoned its use does not mean argument saying/assuming that the pigment ceased to exists!
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Re: CR - Michel Angelo [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2007, 10:51
asaf wrote:
Lets hear your rationale not just the the answer!!!

A newly discovered painting on wooden panel by Michelangelo must have been completed after 1507 but before 1509. It cannot have been painted earlier than 1507 because one of its central figures carries a coin that was not minted until that year. It cannot have been painted after 1509 because it contains a pigment that Michelangelo is known to have abandoned when a cheaper alternative became available in that year.

Which of the following is an assumption on which the argument depends?

A) No stocks of the abandoned pigment existed after 1509.
He just stopped using the old pigment does not mean that the pigment itself does not exist after 1509

B) Michelangelo did not work on the painting over the course of several years.
He might have worked over the painting over the course of year and might have drawn coin and used the color only during 07-09

C) The coin depicted in the painting was known to general public in 1507.
If it was not known among general public, how does he know that ?

D) The wooden panel on which the painting was executed cannot be tested accurately for age.
This looks correct to me ...since they could not test the actual age with whatever method they have ...thats whay they are going for this kind of test analysis

E) Michelangelo's painting style did not change between 1507 and 1509.
Lets say that he has changed the style ...it can be related only to pigment not to coin ..since coin did not exist before 1507 ...and he stopped using the pigment bwecause the cheaper one was available ..even this does not have to do anything with the style ...infact it suggest that he might have used the same style onwards also ...but the same thing .this inference is irrelevant to the sentence
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Re: CR - Michel Angelo [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2007, 10:58
asaf wrote:
Lets hear your rationale not just the the answer!!!

A newly discovered painting on wooden panel by Michelangelo must have been completed after 1507 but before 1509. It cannot have been painted earlier than 1507 because one of its central figures carries a coin that was not minted until that year. It cannot have been painted after 1509 because it contains a pigment that Michelangelo is known to have abandoned when a cheaper alternative became available in that year.

Which of the following is an assumption on which the argument depends?

A) No stocks of the abandoned pigment existed after 1509.

B) Michelangelo did not work on the painting over the course of several years.

C) The coin depicted in the painting was known to general public in 1507.

D) The wooden panel on which the painting was executed cannot be tested accurately for age.

E) Michelangelo's painting style did not change between 1507 and 1509.



Eventhough the OA is released, B is not correct because how do we assume that he stopped working on painting after 1507-09? suppose if MA stoped working on painting only after 1515? what if MA started working on this painting in 1507-09 and ended it in 1510 or 1515 and then stoped working on?

so B ambigious. A and D are possible.

what s the source?
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Re: CR - Michel Angelo [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2007, 13:21
My pick, even before knowing the OA, continues to be B.
The important part is the statement that michalangelo did start at a particular time and finished by 1509. Clearly there is an assumption that inspite of the coin with a central figure, abandonment of a pigment, he did not paint it over a perid of years. If he started in 1505 and then in 1507 he painted a coin in the central figure, simply because he painted that bit only in 1507 and lets say finished it in 1509. Even with this we have proved the statement wrong that he did not start it until 1507.

As far as C is concerned i don't think it matters whether the public had any idea about it. What matters is that he was familiar with the coin and it was available in 1507.

D is hardly important because today you can draw a painting on a 17th century piece of wood and radio carbon dating will never give you any accurate dates exact to a month or a year. Besides you are missing the whole stem focussing on actual start and finish dates.

asaf wrote:
Lets hear your rationale not just the the answer!!!

A newly discovered painting on wooden panel by Michelangelo must have been completed after 1507 but before 1509. It cannot have been painted earlier than 1507 because one of its central figures carries a coin that was not minted until that year. It cannot have been painted after 1509 because it contains a pigment that Michelangelo is known to have abandoned when a cheaper alternative became available in that year.

Which of the following is an assumption on which the argument depends?

A) No stocks of the abandoned pigment existed after 1509.

B) Michelangelo did not work on the painting over the course of several years.

C) The coin depicted in the painting was known to general public in 1507.

D) The wooden panel on which the painting was executed cannot be tested accurately for age.

E) Michelangelo's painting style did not change between 1507 and 1509.
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Re: CR - Michel Angelo [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2007, 14:24
A newly discovered painting on wooden panel by Michelangelo must have been completed after 1507 but before 1509. It cannot have been painted earlier than 1507 because one of its central figures carries a coin that was not minted until that year. It cannot have been painted after 1509 because it contains a pigment that Michelangelo is known to have abandoned when a cheaper alternative became available in that year.

Which of the following is an assumption on which the argument depends?

A) No stocks of the abandoned pigment existed after 1509.
Irrelevant: Even if they existed, Michael didnt use them.

B) Michelangelo did not work on the painting over the course of several years.
Seems like an Answer. Lets say Michael took 10 years to make the painting. He painted the coin in 1507, used pigment in 1509 and completed the painting in 1517.

C) The coin depicted in the painting was known to general public in 1507.
Irrelevant: Minting of the coin has nothing to do with general public. Author compared Mint Date.

D) The wooden panel on which the painting was executed cannot be tested accurately for age.
If wood panel is tested for age, then rest of the argument need not be done. But again, the age of woodpanel may /may not coincide with the painting. What if Wood panel was given to Michael by his father ? ...huh? :lol:


E) Michelangelo's painting style did not change between 1507 and 1509.
Out of Scope.
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 [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2007, 23:48
I go for B

C restates a known fact
D and E are out of scope/irrelevant.

The only other strong contender is A. But A is not a necessary assumption. Even if there were some stocks of old pigments available, the painter might not have used it because he is known to have abandoned it.

B is an assumption if not considered lends little credibility to this argument.
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Re: CR - Michel Angelo [#permalink] New post 28 Aug 2007, 03:50
excelgmat wrote:
My pick, even before knowing the OA, continues to be B.
The important part is the statement that michalangelo did start at a particular time and finished by 1509. Clearly there is an assumption that inspite of the coin with a central figure, abandonment of a pigment, he did not paint it over a perid of years. If he started in 1505 and then in 1507 he painted a coin in the central figure, simply because he painted that bit only in 1507 and lets say finished it in 1509. Even with this we have proved the statement wrong that he did not start it until 1507.

As far as C is concerned i don't think it matters whether the public had any idea about it. What matters is that he was familiar with the coin and it was available in 1507.

D is hardly important because today you can draw a painting on a 17th century piece of wood and radio carbon dating will never give you any accurate dates exact to a month or a year. Besides you are missing the whole stem focussing on actual start and finish dates.



Excellent explanation! thx
If "when" in the stem were "because", we would have 2 OA's! :-D
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CR Q - Michelangelo painting [#permalink] New post 28 Oct 2007, 05:37
Here is a question that I got and I don't agree with the OA. Thought I'll post it in the forum and see if I'm totally mistaken.

A newly discovered painting on wooden panel by Michelangelo must have been completed after 1507 but before 1509. It cannot have been painted earlier than 1507 because one of its central figures carries a coin that was not minted until that year. It cannot have been painted after 1509 because it contains a pigment that Michelangelo is known to have abandoned when a cheaper alternative became available in that year.

Which of the following is an assumption on which the argument depends?

A) No stocks of the abandoned pigment existed after 1509.
B) Michelangelo did not work on the painting over the course of several years.
C) The coin depicted in the painting was known to general public in 1507.
D) The wooden panel on which the painting was executed cannot be tested accurately for age.
E) Michelangelo's painting style did not change between 1507 and 1509.
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 [#permalink] New post 28 Oct 2007, 06:17
B.

You can confirm this by negating the assumption. If the painting was indeed painted over the course of serveral (more than 2) years, then the conclusion would be significantly weakened.
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 [#permalink] New post 28 Oct 2007, 08:28
yuefei wrote:
B.

You can confirm this by negating the assumption. If the painting was indeed painted over the course of serveral (more than 2) years, then the conclusion would be significantly weakened.


May be A
if the stocks of the abandoned pigment existed after 1509 and Micelangelo might use them after 1509? It's also negating the argument as B
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 [#permalink] New post 28 Oct 2007, 08:48
However, answer B, when negated, refutes the conclusion (the first sentence). Answer A, when negated, refutes evidence, not the conclusion.

OA?
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Re: CR Q - Michelangelo painting [#permalink] New post 28 Oct 2007, 09:14
gmat_buf wrote:
Here is a question that I got and I don't agree with the OA. Thought I'll post it in the forum and see if I'm totally mistaken.

A newly discovered painting on wooden panel by Michelangelo must have been completed after 1507 but before 1509. It cannot have been painted earlier than 1507 because one of its central figures carries a coin that was not minted until that year. It cannot have been painted after 1509 because it contains a pigment that Michelangelo is known to have abandoned when a cheaper alternative became available in that year.

Which of the following is an assumption on which the argument depends?

A) No stocks of the abandoned pigment existed after 1509.
B) Michelangelo did not work on the painting over the course of several years.
C) The coin depicted in the painting was known to general public in 1507.
D) The wooden panel on which the painting was executed cannot be tested accurately for age.
E) Michelangelo's painting style did not change between 1507 and 1509.


Count D for me..first i wud like to know OA then will explain!
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 [#permalink] New post 28 Oct 2007, 10:17
yuefei wrote:
B.

You can confirm this by negating the assumption. If the painting was indeed painted over the course of serveral (more than 2) years, then the conclusion would be significantly weakened.


Yuefei.
I think the answer should be A.
I think we should not approach these questions by negating the assumptions.

The way I approached A is as follows:
1) Assuming the given assumption is correct.
2) There should not be any counter argument to the passage.

for all other options, there can be a counter argument.

Correct me if you think I'm missing something.

P.S. I have read both the threads, but just wanted to discuss the way we should approach such a problem.
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 [#permalink] New post 28 Oct 2007, 14:22
For CR questions, I look to identify the conclusion. In this question, the conclusion is the first sentence:

A newly discovered painting on wooden panel by Michelangelo must have been completed after 1507 but before 1509."

The other sentences are evidence supporting this conslusion. With the negation technique, we can ask: what would weaken this conclusion most directly? A different timeframe!

Answer B
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 [#permalink] New post 28 Oct 2007, 19:19
OA is B.

The reason why I don't agree with B is that B states that Michelangelo did not work on the painting over the course of several years. However, the stem states that the painting must have been completed after 1507 but before 1509. For example, the painting could have been initiated before 1505 and still have been completed between the given timeframe. This still supports the conclusion and negating this assumption does not do any harm to the logic of the sentence.

I went for A and got it wrong. The reason I went for A is if there were stocks of pigment that existed after 1509, then it cannot be stated irrefutable stated that the painting did complete by 1509.

This was a part of MGMAT CAT, in which I got a terrible verbal score. Not sure whether such ambigous questions appear on the real GMAT???
  [#permalink] 28 Oct 2007, 19:19
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