Advice/Suggestions required for admission

Best of luck on the admissions process!!! I'd definitely recommend you read the series "Handicapping Your Elite MBA Odds" on the website Poets and Quants to compare how you stack up against other candidates aiming for top schools -- the advice really helped me figure out how to improve my own profile and what schools would be a good fit for me. I also think you may potentially benefit from investing in an admissions consultant (even just a couple of consulting hours), if a top school is a must-have for you. Otherwise, keep exploring the forums on this site, and I'm sure you'll find lots of great tips!

With your profile as it stands now, realistically, I don't know if you're a strong candidate for a top 10 school. Of course, nobody on a forum can properly assess your profile with the limited info or speak for the admissions committees for these schools, so don't get discouraged with what I'm about to say. The reality is that for U.S. schools, it's much harder to get accepted after age 30 (because many of these schools offer Executive MBAs for people further along in their careers). From my experience, no amount of strong academics can overcome a low GMAT score, unless you're from an extremely underrepresented group. Improving your GMAT score is the easiest way to improve your profile, since it's completely in your control, and I have no doubt you could improve your score to 700+ over the next few months (I got a 650 the first time I took the GMAT, then improved my score to a 730 -- make sure to take weekly full-length practice exams to build endurance). Yes, acceptance rates are a little lower Round 2, but for many schools, that's only because the overachieving candidates who have been perfecting their applications for months and months all apply round 1, so the quality of the overall applicant pool in Round 2 is slightly worse, which is why the acceptance rate is lower. My recommendation is to apply in the round that you're ready -- don't rush your application. The benefits of rushing to apply Round 1 don't outweigh the benefits of a stronger GMAT score and better application package for Round 2. If you plan to take the GMAT again, don't work on your essays or application at all, just study for the test, then switch over the completing your essays once you've taken the GMAT. Most people do significantly better on the GMAT the second time they take it (less nervous, better prepared on what to expect on test day, better time management), so if you can afford it, take the test twice -- the school only looks at your top score! Yes, there are exceptions to needing a 720+ GMAT -- people get in to top schools with 550s -- but that means everything else in your application has to be stellar to make up for it.

I would advise against your plan to apply to some schools round 1 and wait to apply to your dream schools round 2. The reason is that if you get accepted to a school in Round 1, you will have to accept the offer and pay the non-refundable deposit ($1000) BEFORE you hear back from other schools in Round 2. Also, if you application isn't strong enough to apply to top schools by the Round 1 deadline, why would you think it's strong enough to apply to other schools and get accepted? Acceptance rates at the top 20 schools are LOW. You want to present the strongest application possible to maximize your chances of getting accepted but also increase your chances of getting a fellowship or scholarship as well. In my opinion, it would be better to apply to your top schools Round 1 so if you get in, you don't need to apply Round 2 at all. However, because you want to improve your GMAT score, it makes more sense for you to apply to ALL your schools Round 2. This is what I did. The most stressful part about this strategy was having all four interviews in the same period of time, but then I got all my acceptances around the same time and could weigh my choices.

Another piece of advice is don't forget the resume. Most people spend all their time on the essays, but the resume is extremely important. Have a friend NOT in your work industry read the resume and critique it. This way, you'll know that the admissions committees will understand what you've done. Also, make sure to quantify your achievements and really show your impact on the organization and your leadership abilities.

The last thing -- budget and time constraints. Application fees are expensive, and traveling for interviews is expensive and time-consuming as well. Applying to more schools means more essays and a lot more school research to show you're a good fit for that specific program. Figure out what's a realistic number of schools to apply to -- a couple reach schools, a couple of realistic schools, and a couple of safety schools. If you're submitting all your applications in one application round (example Round 2), you'll get overwhelmed if you pick too many schools, and it's better to do an amazing job on your applications than rush through them all. Be realistic with your chances of getting accepted at a particular school before deciding on whether to apply or not.

You're in for an exciting journey, and it will all be worth it when you get your acceptance letter! Best of luck! I'm rooting for you

Thanks techfan, your points completely make sense. I have read the series.

Well if you are saying (and almost everyone suggesting) is to retake GMAT, so then should I apply in round 2 only. Based on your experience, do you have any idea about no. of intake from round2 in these colleges. That would be really helpful.

The reason why I wanted to apply few (other than top 10) in round 1 was to have atleast some chances to get an interview call, assesment of my profile and plus not too many applications in round 2, so like 2-3 schools in round 1 (colleges which are like around 15-20th places in ranking, may be a safe school also with little lower ranking) and then 4 schools in round 2 with better GMAT score (top schools). What's your view on this strategy?

Typically, as per your experience, how many months are good enough for 3-4 applications?

Regarding age, can I justify why I need MBA now and not earlier as I am looking to start my venture and have few skills missing which I can gain from the MBA. Do you think age factor can be justified?

Btw, did you also only apply in round 2 and which college you got?

Cheers

Hey Techfan,

Finally after talking to consultant and getting many feedback, I have decided to retake GMAT. I am targeting first week of Sep and then after that will start my applications. I am applying in all school in round 2 only.

What do you think? Does that make sense, not applying in round 1 but only in round 2 in 6-7 colleges.

Kindly revert.

Hi Navi -- Have you ever checked out the blog from MBA Data Guru? Here's his post on the optimal number of schools to apply to: https://www.mbadataguru.com/blog/admissi ... on-number/ -- he also does blog entries on each top school and the odds of being accepted based on whether you apply R1, R2, or R3 and other data points, like GPA and GMAT score. Here is a link to his new admissions calculator (gives you odds of getting accepted to various business schools): https://www.mbadataguru.com/blog/admissi ... -launched/

For what it's worth, I think that it's better for you to apply to all your schools in R2 (if you can increase your GMAT score to 700+). GMAT score (unfortunately) matters a LOT at top schools.

Best of luck!

Thanks techfan. I tried running this calculator and there was an interesting observation. If I take 730 GMAT score and apply in round 2, there was hardly any difference in the % chances at Harvard, Sloan and Booth though for other school obviously there was significant improvement. This was really surprising for me. Chances are quite at almost every top school <20%.
And this was not just for my case. I even tried assuming 750 GMAT and round 1, 27 yrs age and 4 years experience which is like kind of perfect case, still there was not much improvement. And then I saw the most significant factor- Region. Except India, if I choose any other region, chances shoot up.

Really surprised. If over representation is the reason, then China should also fall with India. But seems only India has this issue. As per my understanding, probably because of Chinese language, they are still valued while we Indian opted English and have no respect whatsoever.

Well now comes a stupid but important question- How do they consider from which region I am. Is it based on citizenship, native or based on my current location. So for example, if I am living and working in Singapore at the time of application, will they consider me from that location. If that is the case, it can be played out in favour.

Kindly revert.

Navneet

Hi techfan,

Hope you are doing well. If you recall we were in touch couple of months back when I took guidance from you regarding MBA admission.
I reappeared for GMAT and now got 700 score (which people are saying is still low considering Q51/V32, they are saying verbal is too low). I made few mistakes on verbal, so they are saying to take one last chance and improve on verbal a bit. What do you think?

Second, on the application side, as I am applying for R2, how much time, on average, every application will take? Is it like completely different SOP for different college or like 40-50% will remain same. I talked to a consultant and he is saying 2-3 weeks for every application.

One more point, I was thinking to hire a consultant but it's way too costly. Do you think a consultant is really required?

Kindly revert. Thanks

Hey Navi1784 -- thanks for the update, and congrats on your awesome GMAT score!!! Both Techfan and myself were giving you advice previously on this thread, so I'd be happy to offer some additional thoughts. First off, a 700 is a really good score! However, for the M7 (Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, Kellogg, Booth, Columbia, and MIT Sloan), you really need a 730+ (coming from an overrepresented group and being older than the average applicant, GMAT will matter a lot). Because these schools only look at your top GMAT score, it's worth taking the test one more time, if you think you can improve your verbal score. If it doesn't work out, you still have the solid 700 score to submit.

As for applications -- this is a harder question to answer, as it really depends on the individual applicant (how much time you have to devote in a day to working on your applications) and which programs you choose to apply to (whether essay prompts are similar to possibly re-use portions of essays for multiple schools). There is a fair amount of overlap on applications. For example, you will want to spend a lot of time creating a stellar resume, and you will use the same resume for every school you apply to. Each school has its own application you will need to fill out (which takes several hours), but much of the info is the same, example: listing out your extracurriculars, describing your employment history, etc. The most time-consuming part of the application is the essays. Some schools have very similar essay questions, while other schools have unique essay prompts. You will also want to make the case for why this school/this specific program, which requires extensive research on each MBA program. I would say 3 weeks per application is a good estimate, and it is doable to be working on a couple applications at a time. The best advice I can give is to start the online application for every school you are applying to sooner rather than later so you know everything you need to write/prepare, and then create a spreadsheet to track every task for each school.

As for consultants -- do you need a consultant to get into a good MBA program? Absolutely not. Would YOU personally benefit from a consultant? Probably. The reason being that you are aiming for the top schools and have a background that could use some explaining. Consultants help you explain any potential weaknesses/areas for concern, find stories to highlight your strengths, and help you to create a cohesive and compelling narrative. They are expensive but can be a good investment. Another approach is just to buy a few consultant hours (much cheaper) to review your essays for 1 or 2 of your schools -- this way, you learn a few tricks, and you will likely end up using parts of those essays for all your other schools anyway. If you don't have the budget, just get a friend who doesn't work in your industry to edit all your essays and resume -- this person can tell you how you are perceived based on the essay (does this person seem friendly? Driven? Analytical?) and whether the essays make sense to someone who doesn't come from your industry background. It's totally doable to get into business school without using a consultant, so don't feel pressured either way.

Consultants also help you choose programs that are realistic. In Round 2, you might only apply to 4 - 7 schools, so school selection is very important. With your stats, I'd encourage you to broaden your school selection and look into programs in the top 20. If you have your heart set on attending business school next year, it's important to apply to some safety schools (meaning your GMAT score, GPA, and work experience are far better than the average for that school), some schools that are a solid fit for your stats (where you are a bit above average or average), and a couple of reach schools (the M7). It's extremely hard to get into the top schools, so it's important to be strategic in which schools you apply to -- know what you are looking for in a program, and focus your energy on schools that match those interests.

Please keep us updated, and happy to answer any other questions! Best of luck!

Hi Giapo,

Thanks for your response. I do remember that earlier also you gave me good suggestions. I am planning to retake GMAT in next 10-15 days to improve in verbal. Have noticed that if I improve in verbal from 31 to 35-36 while keeping Q same at 51, I will be close to 730 and also 75+ percentile in both, which ppl are saying is must.

As far as application are concern, can I do 4 applications by Jan first week if I assume 4-5 hrs daily and 8-9 hrs on weekend. The consultant also suggested to do max 4 by then. You think is it achievable considering I will start from Nov mid if I reappear for GMAT. Consultant is asking around $4500 for single application including resume and around $8000 for 4 applications, out of my budget. Do you know anybody who can provide 2-3 hrs service for application at a cheaper rate.

In terms of school, I was thinking Wharton as they have strong finance focus and my experience and CFA charter could give me weightage, then one from Harvard or Stanford (both I know are quite tough but wanted to give a try to one of them, more as you can say kind of a dream), then 2 from Booth/MIT/Berkeley/Columbia/Kellog. Do you want to add any more in the suggestion list.
INSEAD I am keeping separate as their deadline is Jan last and then Feb last also. Worst case if I couldn't apply by then, will target for Jan'18 class. LBS also have Feb mid, so can target that also.

On safe school, I was little confuse. See the biggest reason why I wanted to do MBA is obviously career growth but at the same time also focused on entrepreneurship post MBA. These safe will probably give me career growth but I doubt on my second aspiration, entrepreneurship. So if you ask me honestly, I was thinking that at least this year I don't target safe school. Worst case, if didn't get anything, next year probably will look for safe options also. On otherwise may be after Jan first week, I noticed few non top 20 schools have deadline in Feb,so may be then will think about those. What do you suggest on this?

Thanks and looking forward.

Number of applications -- I disagree with the consultant on this one. It really depends on how quickly you're able to write your essays, how much material you can re-use from other essays, and how much thought you've already given to why an MBA and why now. For example, I did my HBS and MIT applications the night before they were due (do not recommend!), and I was accepted to both schools. I think 5 is a good number to target for one round, with 6 as the absolute maximum (and fewer is better, since you'll have more time to really execute well). If you're targeting reach schools (top 10 in rankings), you're likely going to want to apply to more schools to improve your odds of receiving an interview invite, let alone being accepted.

Consultants -- you can find listings from services on this site in various message boards. Make sure to read the reviews and do a free consultation before you choose a consultant to work with. I personally like Admit Advantage, which offers hourly services (so you can just pay to get feedback on an essay or have your resume reviewed). Again, you don't need to hire a consultant, but spending $1000 to get 4 hours of essay and resume feedback can be worth the investment when you're about to spend $160K on an MBA.

As for 75th percentile in verbal and quantitative -- yes, that's a good target to aim for, but not absolutely required (I scored 68% in the quantitative section, for example). It depends on your academic and work background (example: if I had not taken college calculus or done quantitative projects at work, my GMAT score may have been more of a concern). Also, some schools care a lot about the GMAT -- Wharton and Columbia are historically veryyyyyyy GMAT-focused, so you might want to aim for 750+ if you plan to apply to these schools, while other schools like HBS care more that you hit a certain threshold (that shows you can do the work, but they focus more on leadership experience). This is why it's important to do your school research and be strategic with the schools you select.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think your profile would be competitive at any of the schools you listed, so you're going to want to aim to execute your applications flawlessly (I only know a small amount of your background, so I could be very wrong and don't want to discourage you if your heart is set on a program). Your acceptance odds may be better at INSEAD and LBS, since they like older applicants (for American schools, you really need to have 4-6 yrs experience unless you were in the military, in which case you can be a little older). If you don't get in to a school and wait another year, you'll be even less likely to be accepted to an American program, so just be aware of that risk if you decide to only apply to reach schools Round 2. I would strongly encourage you to spend a few hours reading Poets and Quants website's series "Handicapping your Elite MBA Odds." Find a profile that's similar to yours and see what the experts recommend.

If your goal is to be an entrepreneur, you don't really need an MBA, but there are some benefits. A MBA will give you the business fundamentals to launch and run your own business, a lifelong network you can leverage, and some validation that can help you raise external funding. For these goals yes, going to a top program is beneficial. However, I think you could get many of the same benefits at any of the top 30 programs. There are many amazing programs, and I would encourage you to research more on which programs focus on entrepreneurship as opposed to just going off of rankings.

Hope this helps, and best of luck!

Thanks again for your detailed response. Sorry for the delay as I wasn't well since last 3-4 days.

Regarding no of applications, I agree with your point. Based on my understanding, I believe I can make 4-5 till Jan mid timeline and probably additional 1-2 for those colleges which have Jan end or Feb first week deadline, like INSTEAD or LBS. Once I will start writing essay, would get better idea about the time required each application etc.

Regarding Consultant your advice is very useful. I will surely try to see hourly services based on my budget. If I can get a review of single essay and resume in $1000-1200, would be happy to explore that. Will it be possible within this budget?

Regarding my profile, why do you feel that my profile is not competitive enough. Is it because I am from Indi (over representation), age factor or less than avg GMAT score. What if I improve my GMAT score to around 730? And then how can I improve my profile and make it strong and competitive enough. Would it be possible for you to review my current resume and give me some valuable feedback. I am sure your guidance would be very much helpful.

Regarding college selection, I have couple of points. First under 30, there are plenty of European colleges but I was not much interested to apply for any of those except INSEAD and LBS, mainly because they have one year program and also European economy is not doing great (if I see post MBA plans). While entrepreneurship is covered at most of MBA colleges, getting a degree from top one is always more helpful not just in terms of branding but also networking with more talented people, better infrastructure and value and you will be agree that branding plays a key role. MBA doesn't guarantee a success in your venture but it always increase chances of your success. And then to be on the safe side, if your start up doesn't work out, always easy to come back in the corporate world and join a reputed firm (for me a PE/HF). Obviously, I am also considering a worst case scenario for post MBA job options. Well, can you suggest me some other good option, which are in my reach, under top 30 based on what I am looking for, and I will be happy to do detailed research on those colleges then.

Wharton I was thinking because since they have Finance focus, my experience and CFA degree can give me weightage and then my Quant GMAT score is also good, Q51, what u think? Also MIT, Chicago, UCLA I thought would be better than Stanford (was thinking to apply in 1-2 of them, any suggestion which one would be better for my profile)?

And yes I agree that next year it will be even further difficult for me because of my age but just thinking that if I didn't get my dream college this year, will I be able to make to a reach college/lower ranking college next year based on my profile or even for that my chances will be significantly reduced? Just a hypothetical scenario I am asking you.

I read on Poets and Quants and other forums and almost everyone has mentioned that after 30, it's difficult to get into MBA but yes they have mentioned that if one can present a case that why one need MBA at this age and stage of career (like start up focus) and not looking to get into a consulting domain, which prefer young candidates for associate position post MBA, and if one can prove that she/he can gel with younger classmates, admission is possible. Can't I justify my reasons?

Looking forward for your suggestions.

Thanks

Hi Giapo,

I was awaiting your reply. Please try to reply whenever you get time.

Thanks

Hi Stratus,

Thanks for your response. My GMAT score is 690 now and I am planning to retake once more and hopefully can it to 720-730. Considering current score and if improvement happens, can you suggest me my chances for top B schools (If not Harvard but any other good schools where I make a good chances).

I would strongly recommend that you speak with students with a similar profile (age, background, career goals) and figure out what worked for them, how they went about their decisions and what advice they have for you. Speak with someone in your target schools to figure your shortlist and strategy. Also, acceptance rates are significantly higher for applicants that have their essays reviewed from current students and alums of the school. Customization is key.

If you have friends in these schools, reach out now. Otherwise, reach out to me and I'll put you in touch with students in every school in your list. We run a platform (CallPlato) that helps connect applicants with current students and alums for top MBA programs.

Best,
Nalini Callplato

I would strongly recommend that you speak with students with a similar profile (age, background, career goals) and figure out what worked for them, how they went about their decisions and what advice they have for you. Speak with someone in your target schools to figure your shortlist and strategy. Also, acceptance rates are significantly higher for applicants that have their essays reviewed from current students and alums of the school. Customization is key.

If you have friends in these schools, reach out now. Otherwise, reach out to me and I'll put you in touch with students in every school in your list. We run a platform (CallPlato) that helps connect applicants with current students and alums for top MBA programs.

Best,
Nalini at CallPlato

Nalini,

Thanks for your response. I talked to couple of my friends including many on this and other forums who did MBA from similar B schools. Obviously, none of them was of 30+ old while he went to b school and all of them have same general view that post 30, it becomes bit difficult to get admission though not impossible. All consultants also have same view but they are saying that if my post MBA goals are clear and reason for MBA is clear, I can very much make into a top b school.

Well everybody says that Indian have over representation, so you must have 720+ GMAT score, solid academic and background with strong essay to get into any top b school. However, one of my friend with 550 GMAT score with not so strong academic got into Stanford. Now people might call it lucky (in fact he also think so). However, like others, he also have same view that 720+ GMAT score is kind of must to get into a top school.

I am retaking GMAT one last time to see if I can improve it to 720 around. But yes, can't get away with my age. Another important point is also I need to get some scholarship or fellowship (based on my financial condition and current saving). Without that, I am not sure if I would be able to take admission. Loans, I believe there is limit in case of international students and also since post MBA, I have entrepreneurship aim, I would want to take as less debt burden as I can. So that's also a challenge for me.

It would be really great if you could connect with few students of similar background at 2-3 colleges. I will surely try to take some guidance from them.

Thanks

Hi,

Happy to connect with you students/ alums. Can you please visit www.CallPlato.com and choose someone relevant to your profile? The portal is fairly straightforward. Email / PM me in case you face any difficulties or if you want to speak with someone with a profile different from those listed on the portal. We have hundreds of other expert profiles that are not on the portal yet but provide consultation. I can be reached on nalini@callplato.com. Thanks!

Best,
Nalini