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Almost 50% SC questions use <ing>, non-ing forms in

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Almost 50% SC questions use , non-ing forms in [#permalink] New post 14 Sep 2007, 23:46
00:00
A
B
C
D
E

Difficulty:

  5% (low)

Question Stats:

0% (00:00) correct 0% (00:00) wrong based on 0 sessions
:idea: Almost 50% SC questions use <ing>, non-ing forms in the various options.
Lets get the clarification about the usage of various <ing> forms.
Share your knowledge with everybody.

Start the discussions with the following example:
"Consultants engage in preliminary discussions with clients, complete an initial analysis of ......."

So where do you feel "engage" like above has to be used with <ing> form, and where we need <ing> forms.
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 [#permalink] New post 16 Sep 2007, 08:19
Some verbs can take either the gerund or the infinitive and the sentence still means the same thing.

but other times it does,

* With the verb remember - "I remembered to do my homework". or "I remembered doing my homework."

In the first sentence (I remembered to do my homework), the person speaking remembered they had some homework first and then carried out the action and did it. In the second sentence (I remembered doing my homework.), the person speaking carried out the action (their homework) first and then remembered doing it.

It looks like it will not be easy to spot whether the meaning of the sentence will change.

If anyone has more on this it would be appreciated.
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 [#permalink] New post 18 Sep 2007, 03:57
how commas....vlad cud u elaborate pls :)
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 [#permalink] New post 19 Sep 2007, 05:27
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An example of -ing participle

762. The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed
(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing

IMO E

"Determined" is participle whereas "differed" is past form of verb. So, "differing" , which is a participle, is appropriate.

Here, "the abolition of local times" if followed by which/ that would modify the noun before the "of" preposition structure (of + preposition object) therefore GMAT would like us to use a modifying phrase. Therefore, we let the A, B and C go.

Now the tough part. To understand which option is correct, we must first try to construct how the clauses would have modified "local time"

"local times, which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed"

When we reduce an adjective clause to a modifying phrase the rule is:

1. If there is a "be" verb after the "pronoun" (which/ that), then we simply remove the pronoun and the "be" verb.

2. If "be" verb is absent, then we remove the "pronoun" (which/ that) and change the verb to verb-ing (participle)

Using the rules the sentence becomes:

"local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing"

and this is the choice E.
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 [#permalink] New post 19 Sep 2007, 06:12
msrinath wrote:
An example of -ing participle

762. The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed
(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing

IMO E

"Determined" is participle whereas "differed" is past form of verb. So, "differing" , which is a participle, is appropriate.

Here, "the abolition of local times" if followed by which/ that would modify the noun before the "of" preposition structure (of + preposition object) therefore GMAT would like us to use a modifying phrase. Therefore, we let the A, B and C go.

Now the tough part. To understand which option is correct, we must first try to construct how the clauses would have modified "local time"

"local times, which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed"

When we reduce an adjective clause to a modifying phrase the rule is:

1. If there is a "be" verb after the "pronoun" (which/ that), then we simply remove the pronoun and the "be" verb.

2. If "be" verb is absent, then we remove the "pronoun" (which/ that) and change the verb to verb-ing (participle)

Using the rules the sentence becomes:

"local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing"

and this is the choice E.


thank you for explaining these rules.
However, could you please clarify what it means when you say:

"When we reduce an adjective clause to a modifying phrase"
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 [#permalink] New post 19 Sep 2007, 06:39
DTM wrote:
msrinath wrote:
An example of -ing participle

762. The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed
(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing

IMO E

"Determined" is participle whereas "differed" is past form of verb. So, "differing" , which is a participle, is appropriate.

Here, "the abolition of local times" if followed by which/ that would modify the noun before the "of" preposition structure (of + preposition object) therefore GMAT would like us to use a modifying phrase. Therefore, we let the A, B and C go.

Now the tough part. To understand which option is correct, we must first try to construct how the clauses would have modified "local time"

"local times, which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed"

When we reduce an adjective clause to a modifying phrase the rule is:

1. If there is a "be" verb after the "pronoun" (which/ that), then we simply remove the pronoun and the "be" verb.

2. If "be" verb is absent, then we remove the "pronoun" (which/ that) and change the verb to verb-ing (participle)

Using the rules the sentence becomes:

"local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing"

and this is the choice E.


thank you for explaining these rules.
However, could you please clarify what it means when you say:

"When we reduce an adjective clause to a modifying phrase"


Hi msrinath,
Pls try to provide small examples supporting ur explainaiton of the rules. It become difficult to understand,without small examples.
Thanks for such efforts and nice explainations.
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 [#permalink] New post 19 Sep 2007, 17:05
msrinath wrote:
An example of -ing participle

When we reduce an adjective clause to a modifying phrase the rule is:

1. If there is a "be" verb after the "pronoun" (which/ that), then we simply remove the pronoun and the "be" verb.

2. If "be" verb is absent, then we remove the "pronoun" (which/ that) and change the verb to verb-ing (participle)



Can you elaborate this? Maybe using some examples.
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 [#permalink] New post 19 Sep 2007, 19:37
bkk145 wrote:
msrinath wrote:
An example of -ing participle

When we reduce an adjective clause to a modifying phrase the rule is:

1. If there is a "be" verb after the "pronoun" (which/ that), then we simply remove the pronoun and the "be" verb.

2. If "be" verb is absent, then we remove the "pronoun" (which/ that) and change the verb to verb-ing (participle)



Can you elaborate this? Maybe using some examples.


As I understand....

For example:
the cat, which was chased by your dog and escaped by jumping on a high wall, is mine (sorry for my poor example :P )

1.since after "which" is "was chased" , the modification is to eliminate "which was"
2. Since "escaped" is without a be-verb, the modification is to transform "escaped" into "escaping"

==> The overall modification is:
the cat, chased by your dog and escaping by jumping on a high wall, is mine

Hope you all catch it :)

BTW, thank to the author who posted this interesting grammatical point :)
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 [#permalink] New post 19 Sep 2007, 19:43
Hi, msrinath, could you please divulge the source of this grammatical point to us all? Thank you :)
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 [#permalink] New post 20 Sep 2007, 07:40
Thanks for your wonderful explanation ...Msrinath ...buty could you please let us know ...from where did you learn this rule ..I mean the source ...
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 [#permalink] New post 20 Sep 2007, 10:57
Check this interesting observation by vlad...
http://www.gmatclub.com/forum/p372412#372412

lets combine these 2 posts together for discussions.
Will surely get 2-3 SC questions based on this rule.

Cheers!!
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Re: SC Rule: use of <-ing> forms [#permalink] New post 20 Sep 2007, 11:16
younggun044 wrote:
:idea: Almost 50% SC questions use <ing>, non-ing forms in the various options.
Lets get the clarification about the usage of various <ing> forms.
Share your knowledge with everybody.

Start the discussions with the following example:
"Consultants engage in preliminary discussions with clients, complete an initial analysis of ......."

So where do you feel "engage" like above has to be used with <ing> form, and where we need <ing> forms.


We need Participles experts....Trainers please help!! :roll: :o :arrow:
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 [#permalink] New post 20 Sep 2007, 21:52
One notable point :)

If a participial phrase comes at the end of a sentence, a comma usually precedes the phrase if it modifies an earlier word in the sentence but not if the phrase directly follows the word it modifies.

The local residents often saw Ken wandering through the streets.
(The phrase modifies Ken, not residents.)
Tom nervously watched the woman, alarmed by her silence.
(The phrase modifies Tom, not woman.)

Younggun, you can just type "participial phrase" in google to get a bunch of useful elaborations :)
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 [#permalink] New post 20 Sep 2007, 22:34
I found some contradiction here:

According to this URL http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/ ... rbals.html

If a participial phrase comes at the end of a sentence, a comma usually precedes the phrase if it modifies an earlier word in the sentence but not if the phrase directly follows the word it modifies.

The local residents often saw Ken wandering through the streets.
(The phrase modifies Ken, not residents.)
Tom nervously watched the woman, alarmed by her silence.
(The phrase modifies Tom, not woman.)


Then, back to the example provided by msrinath:

"The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing"

If we follow the rule provided by the authoritative page, "determined...." will be understood to refer to "the growth of..."

Apart from the meaning and logic of the original sentence, is there a more universal rule governing adjective phrase?
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 [#permalink] New post 21 Sep 2007, 13:16
laxieqv wrote:
I found some contradiction here:

According to this URL http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/ ... rbals.html

If a participial phrase comes at the end of a sentence, a comma usually precedes the phrase if it modifies an earlier word in the sentence but not if the phrase directly follows the word it modifies.

The local residents often saw Ken wandering through the streets.
(The phrase modifies Ken, not residents.)
Tom nervously watched the woman, alarmed by her silence.
(The phrase modifies Tom, not woman.)


Then, back to the example provided by msrinath:

"The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing"

If we follow the rule provided by the authoritative page, "determined...." will be understood to refer to "the growth of..."

Apart from the meaning and logic of the original sentence, is there a more universal rule governing adjective phrase?


I guess its not contradiction, since determined by does not come at the end of the sentence.
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 [#permalink] New post 21 Sep 2007, 17:46
oops, my mistake :oops:
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Re: [#permalink] New post 24 Sep 2010, 08:54
tone of kudos msrinath!!!
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Re: SC Rule: use of <-ing> forms [#permalink] New post 24 Sep 2010, 16:34
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing


I would pick "differing" over "differed" because the "differing" phrase provides more information on the time at which the sun reaches an observer's median, whereas "differed" makes the phrase parallel to "the sun.." which is inappropriate.
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Re: SC Rule: use of <-ing> forms [#permalink] New post 19 Dec 2010, 06:07
In E, could determined and differing refer to "The growth" instead of "local times"?

Please clarify.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: SC Rule: use of <-ing> forms [#permalink] New post 19 Dec 2010, 09:35
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To come to the original question where one should use a word like ‘engage’ and where one should use the ‘+ ing' form’:
1. engage: a verb when we say the consultants ‘engage’. – A description of an action that normally occurs
2. Engaging: A present progressive when we say consultants ‘are engaging’ – a description of action that is happening at the time of writing,
3. Consultants, engaging in preliminary …. A present participle used as post –subject modifier.

4. Engaging in preliminary discussions with clients, consultants; a present participle used a pre- subject modifier.

5. In addition ‘engaging’ can also be used as gerund in certain cases although ‘engagement ‘will be largely preferred in such cases. : Engaging adolescent children is a tough task. Engaging describes a noun
Re: SC Rule: use of <-ing> forms   [#permalink] 19 Dec 2010, 09:35
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