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# Alpacas' fleece is worth surprisingly little compared to

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Manager
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Man, you guys rock.

I am learning quite a bit from your posts. (especially U2Lover, ps_dhahia, haas_mba07, shoonya et all)

Keep up the good work and I am sure you guys are going to do very well in GMAT.
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Re: SC: Fleece [#permalink]  25 Jul 2006, 07:27
sumitsarkar82 wrote:
zoom612 wrote:
Alpacas' fleece is worth surprisingly little compared to their market value; a top breeding specimen bringing upwards of $100,000 even if five pounds of fleece fetches only$80 to $240. A. Alpacas' fleece is worth surprisingly little compared to their market value; a top breeding specimen bringing upwards of$100,000 even if five pounds of fleece fetches only $80 to$240.

B. Alpacas' fleece is worth surprisingly little in comparison with its market value; a top breeding specimen bringing upwards of $100,000 while five pounds of fleece fetches only$80 to $240. C. The fleece of the alpaca is worth surprisingly little compared to its market value, while a top breeding specimen can bring upwards of$100,000 even though five pounds of fleece fetch only $80 to$240.

D. The fleece of the alpaca is worth surprisingly little compared to the animal's market value; a top breeding specimen can bring upwards of $100,000 while five pounds of fleece fetch only$80 to $240. E. The worth of the alpaca's fleece is surprisingly little compared to the animal's market value; a top breeding specimen can bring upwards of$100,000 even though five pounds of fleece fetches only $80 to$240.

Please discuss 'The fleece of the alpaca is worth ' in option D and
'The worth of the alpaca's fleece' in option E.

Shouldn't it be B....

Why are we using compared to here, we are trying to compare the market value of two things (similar).... so shouldn't it be compared with.

I have never been clear on this issue

compared to (for similarities)
vs
compared with (for differences)

Can someone pls throw some light on this, possibly with an example?
Director
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Re: All you need to know about subject-verb agreement [#permalink]  25 Jul 2006, 13:12
u2lover wrote:
Futuristic wrote:
When "it" is not the subject, its always singular.

It was us who asked u2lovergirl to throw a party for the GMAT crowd.
NOT
It were us who asked u2lovergirl to throw a party for the GMAT crowd.

Hey futuristic, nice to see you adding value to the posts here!!! This is AWESOME!

Just to add to "IT" part... I am sure you know this, but when "IF" is used with IT" it implies a hypothetical situation (Subjuntive mood) and we must use "WERE" which contradits the rule of SVA.

If it were up to u2lovergal, she would have gone to Ireland to meet BONO.

I would love to throw a party for the GMAT crowd once I beat this stupid test

shoonya... thanks again for the pointer and the shoutout... I am not as good as you might think but thanks anyways

u2, the key point here is that you've added an 'if' to my example, to make it subjunctive. Without the if, the were is not needed. Hope you agree.

If u2lover were to marry u2lovergirl, U2 CDs would fall from the sky.
VS
It was u2lover who was to marry u2lovergirl.
VP
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Re: All you need to know about subject-verb agreement [#permalink]  25 Jul 2006, 13:25
Futuristic wrote:
u2, the key point here is that you've added an 'if' to my example, to make it subjunctive. Without the if, the were is not needed. Hope you agree.

If u2lover were to marry u2lovergirl, U2 CDs would fall from the sky.
VS
It was u2lover who was to marry u2lovergirl.

though it's hard to find u2lover loving the humor

ps... I agree 100%
Senior Manager
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guys, i took one of the first tests of manhattan's gmat review and found this question. The OA is D. Zoom didn't provid the OA, so i think we never concluded on this one.

guys, anyone up for discussion on Alpaca again
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shoonya wrote:
guys, i took one of the first tests of manhattan's gmat review and found this question. The OA is D. Zoom didn't provid the OA, so i think we never concluded on this one.

guys, anyone up for discussion on Alpaca again

this is an interesting question. since you reveled the OA, do you have OE too?
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Guys, here is the OA.

The original sentence contains several errors. First, the pronoun "their" logically refers to alpacas, yet alpacas are not mentioned in the sentence. Instead, we have "alpacas' fleece," i.e. we have alpacas' in the possessive form. Second, the singular verb "fetches" is paired with the plural noun phrase "five pounds of fleece." Third, the use of the semicolon here is improper. A semicolon is used to separate two closely related clauses (subject + verb). Here, however, what follows the semicolon is not a clause since it can not stand alone as a sentence. Lastly the word "while" is preferable to "even if" or "even though" for showing contrast.

(A) This choice is incorrect as it reapeats the original sentence.

(B) This choice does not remedy the pronoun issue, merely replacing "their" with "its". The "its" now seems to replace fleece, however, it is not the market value of the fleece to which the Alpacas' fleece is being compared. It does not remedy the subject-verb or semicolon problems, either.

(C) This choice does not remedy the pronoun issue, merely replacing "their" with "its". The "its" now seems to replace fleece, however, it is not the market value of the fleece to which the Alpacas' fleece is being compared. This choice does fix the semicolon issue by getting rid of it, however, the construction while... even though... makes no sense. The subject-verb issue (pounds fetch) has been corrected.

(D) CORRECT. The pronoun issue is solved by replacing the pronoun "the animal's." The semicolon correctly separates two independent clauses. The "while" correctly separates two contrasting ideas and the verb "fetch" agrees with "pounds."

(E) The comparison between "worth" and "value" is illogical, as is their description as "little." Nonetheless, the pronoun issue is remedied by replacing "their" with "the animal's". The semicolon is used correctly here (two clauses). The subject-verb agreement remains (pounds fetches) and the "while" construction from D is preferable to the "even though" to express the contrast in the second clause.

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Senior Manager
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Yeaaaaah!!!
VP
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this was a great discussion... and I repeated the history again with switching from right to wrong

mailtheguru... you need to party today for sure
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Re: All you need to know about subject-verb agreement [#permalink]  04 Aug 2006, 17:49
Futuristic wrote:
Revision for subject-verb agreement as per "Grammar Smart"

1. Subjects connected by "and" are plural.

E.g. At the station are Futuristic and Unfuturistic.
NOT At the station is Futuristic and Unfuturistic.

2. "and" is the only way to convert 2 or more singular subjects to a single plural subject.

E.g. Futuristic, as well as Unfuturistic, is able to see the future.
NOT Futuristic, as well as Unfuturistic, are able to see the future.

3. Singular subjects connected by either-or/neither-nor stay singular.
E.g. Neither Futuristic nor Unfuturistic is able to see the future.
NOT
Neither Futuristic nor Unfuturistic are able to see the future.

4. If a singular subject is connected to a plural subject using either-or/neither-nor, then the verb should agree with the subject closest to it.

E.g. Neither Futuristic nor his dogs were hungry.
Neither Futuristic's dogs nor he was hungry.

5. "There" is never the subject of a sentence. Its a pointing pronoun, and may point to the subject of the sentence. E.g. There, amidst the smelly cows, lay Futuristic, who did not care two hoots for the GMAT.

6. When "it" is not the subject, its always singular.

It was us who asked u2lovergirl to throw a party for the GMAT crowd.
NOT
It were us who asked u2lovergirl to throw a party for the GMAT crowd.

7. *body, *one, *thing are all singular, where * = { any, some, every}

8. The relative pronouns who, which and what inherit SVA requirement from their noun/antecedent.

9. Collective nouns are always singular, unless expression a diversion among the group. This one is tricky.

E.g. The jury were split in their opinion.
E.g. The jury was unanimous in its decision.

General case:
The army marches every morning at 4am. (Trivia: for GMAT we follow American English. If it were In British english, we'd say "The army march every morning at 4am)

10. Numbers representing a single unit are singular. This applies to the SC being discussed.

Five pounds of meat costs $3.50 NOT Five pounds of meat cost$3.50

Futuristic: Do you still want to stick to the 10th point? Where did you get these rules from? Can you (or somone) confirm if this is a valid point?
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shoonya wrote:
Guys, here is the OA.

The original sentence contains several errors. First, the pronoun "their" logically refers to alpacas, yet alpacas are not mentioned in the sentence. Instead, we have "alpacas' fleece," i.e. we have alpacas' in the possessive form.

BTW, i am not convinced with this.

Joe's mom calls him a pig
is not ok, but
Joe's mom came to his room
is ok

By that analogy, a possessive "their" could refer to alpacas'. Comments?
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It means I was right !!!!!!
Good job me
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Sorry, forgot to give the OA.
The OA is D.
OE: The original sentence contains several errors. First, the pronoun "their" logically refers to alpacas, yet alpacas are not mentioned in the sentence. Instead, we have "alpacas' fleece," i.e. we have alpacas' in the possessive form. Second, the singular verb "fetches" is paired with the plural noun phrase "five pounds of fleece." Third, the use of the semicolon here is improper. A semicolon is used to separate two closely related clauses (subject + verb). Here, however, what follows the semicolon is not a clause since it can not stand alone as a sentence. Lastly the word "while" is preferable to "even if" or "even though" for showing contrast.
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it is indeed agreat discussion and a happy concluding.

zoom612 wrote:
:oops Sorry, forgot to give the OA.
The OA is D.
OE: The original sentence contains several errors. First, the pronoun "their" logically refers to alpacas, yet alpacas are not mentioned in the sentence. Instead, we have "alpacas' fleece," i.e. we have alpacas' in the possessive form. Second, the singular verb "fetches" is paired with the plural noun phrase "five pounds of fleece." Third, the use of the semicolon here is improper. A semicolon is used to separate two closely related clauses (subject + verb). Here, however, what follows the semicolon is not a clause since it can not stand alone as a sentence. Lastly the word "while" is preferable to "even if" or "even though" for showing contrast.
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Re: All you need to know about subject-verb agreement [#permalink]  04 Aug 2006, 20:29
Futuristic wrote:
10. Numbers representing a single unit are singular. This applies to the SC being discussed.

Five pounds of meat costs $3.50 NOT Five pounds of meat cost$3.50

a correction.

when uncount nouns are modified by quantity words, uncount noun is converted into count noun. for ex:
uncount/singular: "water is an impostant aspect of human life".
count/plural: "Five bottles of water are neded".

Five pounds of meat costs $3.50. is not correct since the uncount noun is quantified. going with the same rule, "Five pounds of meat cost$3.50[/quote]" is correct because we can count pound/s.

Last edited by Professor on 04 Aug 2006, 20:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All you need to know about subject-verb agreement [#permalink]  04 Aug 2006, 20:35
Professor wrote:
Futuristic wrote:
10. Numbers representing a single unit are singular. This applies to the SC being discussed.

Five pounds of meat costs $3.50 NOT Five pounds of meat cost$3.50

a correction.

when uncount nouns are modified by quantity words, uncount noun is converted into count noun. for ex:
uncount/singular: "water is an impostant aspect of human life".
count/plural: "Five bottles of water are neded".

Five pounds of meat costs $3.50. correct because we can count quantity pound/s. going with the same rule, "Five pounds of meat cost$3.50
" is not correct.[/quote]

But in this discussion we learnt that 'Five pounds of fleece.....fetch'.
Professor, can you please explain the difference?
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This is very confusing. I think the OA provided is not right as far as "five pounds of fleece" is concerned. Look at the following examples:

1) A million dollars IS a lot of money to keep under your mattress

2) Fifty percent IS a big commission.

3) Ten years is a long time to be without work.

Five pounds of fleece is still fleece, you can't count it. So, it "fetches" not "fetch" money. consider the following :

five bottles of water cost five dollars.

five litres of water costs five dollars.

I have my date with the beast on 8th of August. Wish me luck all
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My information is from Grammar Smart by Princeton Review, I believe it to be accurate.

Last edited by Futuristic on 04 Aug 2006, 20:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Yes, this information is also from Grammar Smart and I would go with Grammar Smart than with MGMAT on this issue.
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shoonya wrote:
I have my date with the beast on 8th of August. Wish me luck all

Great! Good luck!! You will score 8 shoonya shoonya

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