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Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American

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Re: Usage of pronoun "it" [#permalink] New post 01 Sep 2012, 08:40
psdeol wrote:
Dear Friends
Kindly help me through this OG question

Q: Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry and had pretended to imitate Native
American forms in their own works, it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying traditional Native American poetry in native
languages.

This is a question from official guide 12th edition. I have written the correct sentence. Please elaborate the usage of pronoun"it" at the beginning of second clause. What is it referring to here?


IMO "it" is used here as place holder pronoun. Here it is not referring to any noun/pronoun.
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Re: Usage of pronoun "it" [#permalink] New post 02 Sep 2012, 11:36
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Case of Placeholder IT

IT is raining : Here, IT doesnt have an antecedent

IT is a pronoun : Here, IT doesnt refer back to anything / anyone

Eg : Although SKM is a regular poster on SC forum, IT is too early to form an opinion on his SC skills : Here, IT doesnt refer back to anything, just hangs there to give the sentence a logical structure.
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Re: Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American [#permalink] New post 11 Jan 2013, 00:36
I have not studied gmat until now

is correct

I had not studied gmat untill 2010

is incorrect.

"had done" is not used to show the action which began before and continued into another past action/past point of time. (this is different from "have done")

I had finished gmat before 2010
is correct

is my thinking correct?
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Re: Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American [#permalink] New post 11 Jan 2013, 15:06
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thangvietnam wrote:
I have not studied gmat until now

is correct

I had not studied gmat untill 2010

is incorrect.

"had done" is not used to show the action which began before and continued into another past action/past point of time. (this is different from "have done")

I had finished gmat before 2010
is correct

is my thinking correct?


Hi thangvietnam,

Yes, usages of present perfect tense and past perfect tense are very different.
One of the usages of present perfect tense is that it can be used to denote an action that took place in the recent past nut the effect of which can be felt in the present. However, this past perfect tense cannot be used in this way. On GMAT, past perfect tense is used to show the verb sequencing. If two events took place in the past, we use past perfect tense for the earlier event and simple present tense for the later event.

I had finished GMAT 2010 before 2010.

This sentence is correct. However, we can write this sentence in simple past tense also because the presence of "before" which clearly establishes the time-frame that GMAT was finished before 2010. In presence of such time markers, use of past perfect tense becomes optional.

Hope this helps.:)
Thanks.
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Re: Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American [#permalink] New post 15 Jan 2013, 01:32
thank your e gmat posting.

B is wrong because
"had done" is used to show an action which began before and continue into the later past action/time. This is not acceptable for had done

we used to mistake this case because "have done" shows an action hapen before and continued in to present action/time.

the only case in which had done is used is to show an action which happen before another past action.

is my thingkinc correct. ?
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Re: Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 09:13
it was not until X that someone DID
until X, someone HAD DONE

are idioms

Am I correct?, pls confirm
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Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American [#permalink] New post 25 Mar 2013, 00:35
Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century
American poets had professed an interest in Native
American poetry and had pretended to imitate Native
American forms in their own works, until almost 1900,
scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study

traditional Native American poetry in native
languages.
(A) until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not
begin seriously to study
(B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not
begun seriously studying
(C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics
to begin seriously to study
(D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and
critics began to seriously study
(E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and
critics seriously began studying
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Re: help in solving this. [#permalink] New post 25 Mar 2013, 00:44
Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry and had pretended to imitate Native American forms in their own works, until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study traditional Native American poetry in native languages.

The sentence begins with "Although" so we are looking for a contraposition and opt A and B do not offer one.
(A) until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study
(B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not begun seriously studying

All these 3 use "not" which completes the contraposition, so the main structure of the sentence is correct.
(C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics to begin seriously to study
"were scholars (...) to begin seriously to study" is grammatically wrong.
(D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study
the right order is "it was not until almost" and not "it was not almost until "(because modifies the meaning). Moreover the sentence "1900 when scholars bagan to study" is not idiomatic
(E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying
CORRECT
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Re: help in solving this. [#permalink] New post 25 Mar 2013, 05:19
Zarrolou wrote:
Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry and had pretended to imitate Native American forms in their own works, until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study traditional Native American poetry in native languages.

The sentence begins with "Although" so we are looking for a contraposition and opt A and B do not offer one.
(A) until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study
(B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not begun seriously studying

All these 3 use "not" which completes the contraposition, so the main structure of the sentence is correct.
(C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics to begin seriously to study
"were scholars (...) to begin seriously to study" is grammatically wrong.
(D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study
the right order is "it was not until almost" and not "it was not almost until "(because modifies the meaning). Moreover the sentence "1900 when scholars bagan to study" is not idiomatic
(E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying
CORRECT



Thanks for the response .

I am not aware of the concept of contraposition. Can you please explain that in a little more detail
Also,
I referred MGMAT SC. and found that Although can be used without "not". Here is an example from IDIOMS chapter of MGMAT.

Example:
Although I take frequent naps, I study effectively.


Am i missing something ?
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Re: help in solving this. [#permalink] New post 25 Mar 2013, 05:41
z3nith wrote:
Zarrolou wrote:
Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry and had pretended to imitate Native American forms in their own works, until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study traditional Native American poetry in native languages.

The sentence begins with "Although" so we are looking for a contraposition and opt A and B do not offer one.
(A) until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study
(B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not begun seriously studying

All these 3 use "not" which completes the contraposition, so the main structure of the sentence is correct.
(C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics to begin seriously to study
"were scholars (...) to begin seriously to study" is grammatically wrong.
(D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study
the right order is "it was not until almost" and not "it was not almost until "(because modifies the meaning). Moreover the sentence "1900 when scholars bagan to study" is not idiomatic
(E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying
CORRECT



Thanks for the response .

I am not aware of the concept of contraposition. Can you please explain that in a little more detail
Also,
I referred MGMAT SC. and found that Although can be used without "not". Here is an example from IDIOMS chapter of MGMAT.

Example:
Although I take frequent naps, I study effectively.


Am i missing something ?


Well, I have to say that I didn`t know that "although" could be used also without "not", my bad sorry
Analyzing A and B again I found that:
A)It is not clear what "until almost 1900" modifies. Does it refer to "did not begin seriously to study" or to the prior verb ("had professed an interest in Native American poetry and had pretended")? not clear
B)"had professed and had pretended" both happen before before the second action, which cannot be expresed by the same tense("had begun"). "began" should be used instead to express the sequence

Hope it`s clear, and sorry again.
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Re: Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American [#permalink] New post 07 May 2013, 19:00
All duplicate threads on this topic have been merged.

Please read and follow the Guidelines for Posting in Verbal GMAT forum before posting anything.
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Re: Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American [#permalink] New post 16 Aug 2013, 00:28
Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry and had pretended to imitate Native American forms in their own works, until almost 1900,scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study traditional Native American poetry in native languages.

A) until almost 1900,scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study
B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not begun seriously studying
C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics to begin seriously to study
D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study
E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying

POE:
1.Sentence Start with "Although" --------> There should be contrast
2. non underline portion is use past perfect(had professed and had pretended) that means there will be definitely sequence of event.one event is already presented as past perfect so this was earlier event.hence second event should be later event and should expressed in simple past.
Option B,C are out!!
3. "almost 1900" should modify scholar that means "almost 1900" should immediately be followed "scholars and critics"(without any comma)
Option A is out
4. almost should be placed closed to 1900 as this convey the proper meaning
almost until 1900 is vague and until almost 1900 is clear
Option D is out

this POE left Option E as the correct choice

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Re: Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American [#permalink] New post 11 Sep 2013, 01:12
I think the main problem with A and B is that the phrase " untill almost 1900..." is inserted between 2 clauses and become ambiguous. it can modifies the first clause or the latter clause. This is not good.
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Re: Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American [#permalink] New post 10 Jan 2014, 21:47
Hi E-Gmat Team , I need your help on this official Guide qs no-2

Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry and had pretended to imitate Native American forms in their own works, until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study traditional Native American poetry in native languages

A) until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study
(B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not begun seriously studying
(C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics to begin seriously to study
(D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study
(E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying

Meaning-Starts with contrast although American poets had professed & pretended to intimate the native American forms in their work , it was almost 1900 when the scholars and critics took it seriously.

1.Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry
and had pretended to imitate Native American forms in their own works -D.C staring with subordinate conjuction / Past Perfect
2.until almost 1900- modifier phrase
3.scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study traditional Native American poetry in native languages -I.C- past tense ( use of begin is wrong)
S-Verb - No Error

POE-
A) until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study- Incorrect Begin is wrong ,should be simple past
(B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not begun seriously studying- Incorrect -1900 scholars changes the meaning/ past perfect is used
(C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics to begin seriously to study- Incorrect -wrong construction, 1900 were scholars/ begin seriously to study- is wrong
(D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study - Incorrect split infinitive,/ modifier not almost until
(E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying-Correct past tense.

Kindly review and advise

Having a tough time shifting from vertical to horizontal split.

Kindly advise if there are links for E-Gmat explanation of OG- sc problems.

Tks/Brgds
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Re: Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American [#permalink] New post 13 Jan 2014, 05:11
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anuragd wrote:
Hi E-Gmat Team , I need your help on this official Guide qs no-2

Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry and had pretended to imitate Native American forms in their own works, until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study traditional Native American poetry in native languages

A) until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study
(B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not begun seriously studying
(C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics to begin seriously to study
(D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study
(E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying

Meaning-Starts with contrast although American poets had professed & pretended to intimate the native American forms in their work , it was almost 1900 when the scholars and critics took it seriously.

1.Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry
and had pretended to imitate Native American forms in their own works -D.C staring with subordinate conjuction / Past Perfect
2.until almost 1900- modifier phrase
3.scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study traditional Native American poetry in native languages -I.C- past tense ( use of begin is wrong)
S-Verb - No Error

POE-
A) until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study- Incorrect Begin is wrong ,should be simple past
(B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not begun seriously studying- Incorrect -1900 scholars changes the meaning/ past perfect is used
(C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics to begin seriously to study- Incorrect -wrong construction, 1900 were scholars/ begin seriously to study- is wrong
(D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study - Incorrect split infinitive,/ modifier not almost until
(E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying-Correct past tense.

Kindly review and advise

Having a tough time shifting from vertical to horizontal split.

Kindly advise if there are links for E-Gmat explanation of OG- sc problems.

Tks/Brgds
Anurag


Dear Anurag,

You did a good analysis.

However, there is one error in your analysis that needs to be pointed out.

Note that "did not begin" is indeed simple past.

Let me solve the question using the 3-step process.

Meaning Analysis: The sentence states a contrast.

Fact 1 = Various 18th & 19th century poets showed interest in Native American poetry & pretended to imitate this form in their works.

Fact 2 = But still scholars and critics seriously began studying this topic (Native American poetry) after 1900.


Error Analysis:

Clause 1: Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry and had pretended to imitate Native American forms in their own works,until almost 1900,

Clause 2: scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study traditional Native American poetry in native languages.

There is no Subject Verb error.

The actions "had professed" and "had pretended" took place prior to "did not begin". Therefore the usage of past perfect tense represents the correct sequencing of events.

However, there is an issue with the usage of the modifier "until almost 1900". It appears that this modifier should modify the verb in clause 2, but its placement (separated by commas from both clauses) is such that it can modify clause 1 verbs as well. Thus, this sentence has modifier error.

POE:

(A) until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study - Incorrect - Modifier Error as discussed.

(B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not begun seriously studying - Incorrect - Although, modifier error is corrected by removing the comma after 1900, there is a verb tense error - "had begun" should be "began" to show the intended verb sequencing.

(C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics to begin seriously to study - Incorrect - Awkward construction - scholars and critics were to begin...

(D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study - Incorrect - It is not clear what "almost" modifies. Per the intended meaning "almost" should modify 1900 implying "around 1900 - e.g it could be in 1899 or 1901". But placing "almost" before "until" no longer communicates the intended approximation of time period "around 1900".

(E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying - Correct. The modifier has been correctly placed.


Hope this helps :)

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Re: Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American [#permalink] New post 17 May 2014, 19:04
Usage if "IT" in option E.

So E i correct. No issues there.

But how does one actually figure out if the "dangling" IT is because of an error or part of correct grammar?
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Re: Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American [#permalink] New post 19 May 2014, 16:49
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Dear vingmat001,

I will be happy to respond to your question. If I understand your question correctly, you are asking when it is correct for "it" to not have an antecedent. I believe that is what you mean when you say "dangling it". Please do correct me if my understanding of your question is not correct.

Let's look at this sentence:

It is very windy today.

In this sentence, you will see that "it" has no antecedent and "it" is used correctly. Basically such usage of it is referred to as "placeholder it".

Thus, you need to always go by the context of the sentence and determine if you really need a noun to replace the "it".

Now let's consider two official sentences:

Choice E of the question in discussion - "it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying"
Choice D of another official question - "It can hardly be said that educators are at fault for not anticipating the impact of microcomputer technology"

Here also "it" is used as a placeholder. Now how do you check that - ask yourself, can I replace this with any noun and still have the sentence make sense?
I look forward to your response for this question for both official answers above.

Regards,

Payal
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Re: Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American [#permalink] New post 28 May 2014, 12:31
Thanks Payal!

This is exactly what I was looking to confirm. Does "it" have an antecedent.
Thanks for clarifying that its a "placeholder-IT".

-Vin
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Re: Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American [#permalink] New post 14 Jun 2014, 03:43
The answer is E. After comma here the new clause should start and almost should should come before 1900.
Re: Although various eighteenth and nineteenth-century American   [#permalink] 14 Jun 2014, 03:43
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