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An proportion of women work/works????

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New post 01 Apr 2008, 17:03
In Hungary, as in much of Eastern Europe, an overwhelming proportion of women work,
many of which are in
middle management and light industry.
A. as in much of Eastern Europe, an overwhelming proportion of women work,
many of which are in
B. as with much of Eastern Europe, an overwhelming proportion of women works,
many in
C. as in much of Eastern Europe, an overwhelming proportion of women work,
many of them in
21
D. like much of Eastern Europe, an overwhelming proportion of women works, and
many are
E. like much of Eastern Europe, an overwhelming proportion of women work, many are in

Please explain your answer. :?:
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New post 01 Apr 2008, 17:33
First of all the 3 options are using "as" and remaining 2 are using "like". We need to determine which one of these is correct.
"As" is used as an adverb while serving as a preposition with the meaning of "in the capacity of". It should be used before a clause, adverb or prepositional phrase. This is exactly what we need here.
"Like" is used before a noun or pronoun, so does not suits here.
Now we are left with A, B, and C.

"As in" is correct usage than "As with".

So we are left with A, and C.

If you look carefully A is ending in "many of which are in" while C is ending in "many of them in". Obviously C is ending correctly.

Answer C.
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New post 01 Apr 2008, 18:58
Hmm...i would choose A. Actually, now that I think about it and seeing that answer, I will choose C as well.
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New post 01 Apr 2008, 20:25
abhijit_sen wrote:
First of all the 3 options are using "as" and remaining 2 are using "like". We need to determine which one of these is correct.
"As" is used as an adverb while serving as a preposition with the meaning of "in the capacity of". It should be used before a clause, adverb or prepositional phrase. This is exactly what we need here.
"Like" is used before a noun or pronoun, so does not suits here.

Answer C.

Tks for the great explaination! Actually I was confused with the use of "like" and "as" here. OA is C
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New post 01 Apr 2008, 20:26
abhijit_sen wrote:
First of all the 3 options are using "as" and remaining 2 are using "like". We need to determine which one of these is correct.
"As" is used as an adverb while serving as a preposition with the meaning of "in the capacity of". It should be used before a clause, adverb or prepositional phrase. This is exactly what we need here.
"Like" is used before a noun or pronoun, so does not suits here.
Now we are left with A, B, and C.

"As in" is correct usage than "As with".

So we are left with A, and C.

If you look carefully A is ending in "many of which are in" while C is ending in "many of them in". Obviously C is ending correctly.

Answer C.


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New post 01 Apr 2008, 20:57
One more point that I missed, "women work" vs "women works". Since women is plural so correct is "women work" that also helps in eliminating 2 choices.
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New post 01 Apr 2008, 21:04
One more C.

Good explanation Abhijit. I get good number of SC right but cant speak the grammar language. (english second language)

Is there any quick refresher compilation on these , like a word doc or something?
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New post 01 Apr 2008, 21:24
abhijit_sen wrote:
One more point that I missed, "women work" vs "women works". Since women is plural so correct is "women work" that also helps in eliminating 2 choices.


This one is important, too.

I remembered that for "ratio" and "proportion", V always agrees with the main Subject.
In this sentence: "a overwhelming proportion of women"--> "women" is the main Subjest--V should be "work".

Pls correct if I am wrong
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New post 04 Apr 2008, 08:38
In Hungary, as in much of Eastern Europe, an overwhelming proportion of women work,
many of which are in
middle management and light industry.
A. as in much of Eastern Europe, an overwhelming proportion of women work,
many of which are in
B. as with much of Eastern Europe, an overwhelming proportion of women works,
many in
C. as in much of Eastern Europe, an overwhelming proportion of women work,
many of them in
21
D. like much of Eastern Europe, an overwhelming proportion of women works, and
many are
E. like much of Eastern Europe, an overwhelming proportion of women work, many are in

Last but not least, Parallelism leaves you only with A & C (2-3 split)...
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New post 21 May 2016, 15:58
This is one of those rare GMAT questions whose correct answer I happen to disagree with.

The noun here is "proportion," not "women," because "women" is preceded by a preposition ("of") and is thus an object, not a subject. "proportion (of women) works" = "it works" = correct. Thus, "works" should be the correct verb, not "work."

I will admit that Choice B is not a perfect choice either, because of the non-parallel structure of "in / with", but I would argue that this error is less eggregious than the verb tense error in the "correct" answer, Choice C.

In addition, the "of them" in choice C is unnecessary.

GMAC says C, but I say B.

So what's the take-away here? On the GMAT, if the subject refers to a ratio, proportion, percentage, or number, then you should conjugate the object of the ratio, proportion, percentage, or number.

I know that a number of people disagree with me that B is best choice, especially since it would sound weird if I were to write, "a number of people disagrees with me." However, that which is grammatically correct is not always that which sounds best. Choice C sounds best, but the Choice B follows the rules of grammar more strictly, at least with regard to verb conjugation.

Ultimately, on this test, it doesn't matter what's technically and/or grammatically correct--it matters what the GMAC thinks is best.

Last edited by mcelroytutoring on 22 May 2016, 12:11, edited 1 time in total.
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New post 21 May 2016, 20:50
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mcelroytutoring wrote:
This is one of those rare GMAT questions whose correct answer I happen to disagree with.

The noun here is "proportion," not "women," because "women" is preceded by a preposition ("of") and is thus an object, not a subject. "proportion (of women) works" = "it works" = correct. Thus, "works" should be the correct verb, not "work."

I will admit that Choice B is not a perfect choice either, because of the non-parallel structure of "in / with", but I would argue that this error is less eggregious than the verb tense error in the "correct" answer, Choice C.

In addition, the "of them" in choice C is unnecessary.

GMAC says C, but I say B.

So what's the take-away here? On the GMAT, if the subject refers to a ratio, proportion, percentage, or number, then you should conjugate the object of the ratio, proportion, percentage, or number.

I know that a number of people disagree with me that B is best choice, especially since it would sound weird if I were to write, "a number of people disagrees with me." However, that which is grammatically correct is not always that which sounds best. Choice C sounds best, but the Choice B follows the rules of grammar more strictly, at least with regard to the verb conjugation.

Ultimately, on this test, it doesn't matter what's technically and/or grammatically correct--it matters what the GMAC thinks is best.


Hi,

GMAC is correct in this Q too and PROPORTION acts in similar way as NUMBER..
proportion preceded by 'the' makes it singular AS THE is literally talking of the ratio/fraction-

The proportion of women working from home IS higher than that of men.

Whereas 'A proportion' talks of the NOUN itself and not fraction..
A higher proportion of women VOTE in elections nowadays.
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New post 27 May 2016, 20:02
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mcelroytutoring wrote:
Ultimately, on this test, it doesn't matter what's technically and/or grammatically correct--it matters what the GMAC thinks is best.
Chetan is almost certainly right on this one.

The proportion of students... has changed.
A small proportion of students opt for...


This is not something that puts the GMAT in a minority. If anything, the insistence on singular usage would be the minority view.
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New post 29 May 2016, 11:28
In my opinion, conjugating the object of a sentence instead of the subject is not an idiom--it's a grammatical error, related to the most basic structure of sentences (subjects and verbs).

Yes, it sometimes sounds awkward when used correctly, but that does not make it any less correct. If the writers at the GMAC want to consider that an "idiom," then that's fine, and of course GMAT students should take note. But that doesn't mean that I have to personally agree with them.

Although if I were forced to choose, I still would select Choice B (prioritizing correct grammar over awkwardness), I would say that there is no correct answer to this question, because Choice B is awkward (albeit correct) and non-parallel, and Choice C is grammatically incorrect. GMAC says (emphasis mine) "Select the answer that produces the most effective sentence; your answer should make the sentence clear, exact, and free of grammatical error. It should also minimize awkwardness, ambiguity, and redundancy." I don't see an answer choice here that fits all of those descriptions.

Would you say "a group of exchange students are coming to visit."? No, you would say "a group of exchange students is coming to visit, because "a group" is the subject, not "students." What's the difference between "a group" and "a proportion?" Essentially, nothing.

I think we need to stop treating the GMAC question-writers as infallible gods, and realize that they are also human, and whether they will admit it or not, they make mistakes sometimes too.

From the 2016 Official Guide, page 667:

"Sentence correction questions may include English-language idioms, which are standard constructions not derived from the most basic rules of grammar and vocabulary, but idioms are not intended to measure any specialized knowledge of colloquialisms or regionalisms."

In real life, when having conversations, I do prioritize avoiding awkwardness over grammatical correctness (for example, "It's me"--incorrect but accepted--vs. "It's I"--correct but awkward--when speaking on the phone), and I think that most of us do to avoid seeming pretentious in the company of our friends who are not necessarily grammar experts. But on the GMAT, the language provided by the GMAC suggests that correct grammar should be prioritized over a lack of awkwardness.
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New post 29 May 2016, 22:01
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mcelroytutoring wrote:
Yes, it sometimes sounds awkward when used correctly, but that does not make it any less correct. If the writers at the GMAC want to consider that an "idiom," then that's fine, and of course GMAT students should take note. But that doesn't mean that I have to personally agree with them.

Although if I were forced to choose, I still would select Choice B (prioritizing correct grammar over awkwardness), I would say that there is no correct answer to this question, because Choice B is awkward (albeit correct) and non-parallel, and Choice C is grammatically incorrect. GMAC says (emphasis mine) "Select the answer that produces the most effective sentence; your answer should make the sentence clear, exact, and free of grammatical error. It should also minimize awkwardness, ambiguity, and redundancy." I don't see an answer choice here that fits all of those descriptions.

Would you say "a group of exchange students are coming to visit."? No, you would say "a group of exchange students is coming to visit, because "a group" is the subject, not "students." What's the difference between "a group" and "a proportion?" Essentially, nothing.
I'm not sure how strongly you feel about this, so I'd like to leave the GMAT item writers/gods/human bit out.

You're welcome not to "personally agree with them", but you may be going overboard on grammatical concord. There are situations in which going "singular only" would be unacceptable.

A majority are Russians.
A majority is Russians.


mcelroytutoring wrote:
I know that a number of people disagree with me that B is best choice, especially since it would sound weird if I were to write, "a number of people disagrees with me." However, that which is grammatically correct is not always that which sounds best.
mcelroytutoring wrote:
The noun here is "proportion," not "women," because "women" is preceded by a preposition ("of") and is thus an object, not a subject. "proportion (of women) works" = "it works" = correct. Thus, "works" should be the correct verb, not "work."
I'm not sure how these statements can be defended. A number of is used here as many, and going plural on a number of people is, in fact, correct. Going plural on an overwhelming proportion of women is also correct. The point you make about appearing to be pedantic ("It is I/me") is secondary, because I don't think the GMAT would lose if this went to a usage panel.

Also, the (extremely broad) conclusion that "Ultimately, on this test, it doesn't matter what's technically and/or grammatically correct" is uncalled-for. The GMAT does not have a secret set of rules. There is almost complete overlap between what the GMAT tests and what is widely considered acceptable (if formal) usage.
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New post 30 May 2016, 06:42
Good example. Although both conjugations are acceptable in different instances, "A majority is Russian" is the most correct version. Majority is a singular noun in this case, because being Russian is common to of all of them collectively.

Likewise, the correct answer should be "a majority of women work," not "a majority of women works."

http://www.grammar.com/Group-Nouns-majority-do-or-majority-does

In your "Russian" example, the answer is crystal-clear, but I will concede that on this actual GMAT question there is more wiggle room. You could argue that they are not all working together, since they don't all perform the same jobs.

In addition, on second glance, I did notice one extra aspect of Choice A that I do not like: the word "them." If we use the singular conjugation early in the sentence, then we must preserve the singular reference later in the sentence.

My corrected version: "In Hungary, as in much of Eastern Europe, an overwhelming proportion of women work, mostly in middle management and light industry."

Last edited by mcelroytutoring on 30 May 2016, 07:07, edited 2 times in total.
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New post 30 May 2016, 07:04
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Hi,

Quote:
Would you say "a group of exchange students are coming to visit."? No, you would say "a group of exchange students is coming to visit, because "a group" is the subject, not "students." What's the difference between "a group" and "a proportion?"Essentially, nothing.


Group is a collective noun ...
In american english and therefore in GMAT, collective nouns are taken as singular and therefore have SINGULAR verb.. In british english, the VERB depends on usage.


And group is like TEAM, ARMY in its usage and not like PROPORTION..
Proportion comes in same category as 'Number' and hence has the same usage-
A number or a proportion.... plural verb..
The number or the proportion ..... singular verb.

REASON-
proportion preceded by 'the' makes it singular AS THE is literally talking of the ratio/fraction-
The proportion of women working from home IS higher than that of men.

Whereas 'A proportion' talks of the NOUN itself and not fraction..
A higher proportion of women VOTE in elections nowadays.



Quote:
I think we need to stop treating the GMAC question-writers as infallible gods, and realize that they are also human, and whether they will admit it or not, they make mistakes sometimes too.


Firstly GMAC is not wrong here..
But say they were wrong here, I would still ask students to follow them..
Remember- we are here for scoring well and not questioning GMAC's wisdom
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New post 30 May 2016, 07:16
Sorry, but I just don't agree.

The word "ratio" or "proportion" does not take a plural verb.

The best examples I can give are the many Official GMAT quant questions that follow this rule precisely:

Notice how the question says "the ratio was" (singular verb) instead of "the ratio were" (plural verb).

"In a certain district, the ratio of the number of registered Republicans to the number of registered Democrats was 3/5. After 600 additional Republicans and 500 additional Democrats registered, the ratio was 4/5. After these registrations, there were how many more voters in the district registered as Democrats than as Republicans?"

http://gmatclub.com/forum/in-a-certain-district-the-ratio-of-the-number-of-registered-143983.html
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New post 30 May 2016, 07:20
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mcelroytutoring wrote:
Sorry, but I just don't agree.

The word "ratio" or "proportion" does not take a plural verb.

The best example I can give are the many Official GMAT math questions that follow this rule precisely:

Notice how the question says "the ratio was" (singular verb) instead of "the ratio were" (plural verb).

In a certain district, the ratio of the number of registered Republicans to the number of registered Democrats was 3/5. After 600 additional Republicans and 500 additional Democrats registered, the ratio was 4/5. After these registrations, there were how many more voters in the district registered as Democrats than as Republicans?

http://gmatclub.com/forum/in-a-certain-district-the-ratio-of-the-number-of-registered-143983.html


Yes that is what my point is too...
"the proportion...." will act as ''the number...", so will be followed by a SINGULAR verb...
and that is exactly what examples you have given
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New post 30 May 2016, 07:28
That's mostly correct, but I believe that we need to clarify the "a number" vs. "a number" distinction. On the GMAT, this is only true if it's put in the form: "A number of _____ are ...."

I still don't personally agree with this choice, but I agree it's clear that "a number of (plural)" and "a proportion of (plural)" and "a fraction/majority/minority of (plural)" is always conjugated using the plural verb form on the GMAT. And yes for the purposes of this forum, the GMAC is king.

Otherwise, "a number," like all other singular subjects, is conjugated in singular form. For example:

"A palindrome is a number that reads the same forward and backward. For example. 2442 and 111 are palindromes. If 5-digit palindromes are formed using one or more of the digits, 1, 2, 3, how many such palindromes are possible?

"A number reads" = "(It) reads" = correct.

a-palindrome-is-a-number-that-reads-the-same-forward-and-bac-161167.html
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New post 03 Jun 2016, 21:59
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mcelroytutoring wrote:
That's mostly correct, but I believe that we need to clarify the "a number" vs. "a number" distinction. On the GMAT, this is only true if it's put in the form: "A number of _____ are ...."

I still don't personally agree with this choice, but I agree it's clear that "a number of (plural)" and "a proportion of (plural)" and "a fraction/majority/minority of (plural)" is always conjugated using the plural verb form on the GMAT. And yes for the purposes of this forum, the GMAC is king.

Otherwise, "a number," like all other singular subjects, is conjugated in singular form. For example:

"A palindrome is a number that reads the same forward and backward. For example. 2442 and 111 are palindromes. If 5-digit palindromes are formed using one or more of the digits, 1, 2, 3, how many such palindromes are possible?

"A number reads" = "(It) reads" = correct.

a-palindrome-is-a-number-that-reads-the-same-forward-and-bac-161167.html


that is the entire point here-
a number of ..... OR a proportion of .... takes a plural verb and it takes a plural verb because the usage demands it and also more importantly GMAC finds it correct
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