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# Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important)

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Veritas Prep GMAT Instructor
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink]

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22 Sep 2011, 10:49
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Expert's post
gmatgirl16 wrote:
Hi all...

This is serious! Are these changes in effect ?? how does one prepare for SCs now...!? I was really counting on SCs to be the easiest on verbal section... now we need to check them for meaning and all?!?! NOT GOOD.

These are not 'sudden changes' they are making to the format. These changes have been in-progress for a long time now. In my previous posts I have stressed on two things:

1. Do not focus too much on idioms. They are not the actual game changers.
2. Focus on the sentence that conveys the correct meaning.

Here is the link to one of my posts (21st July 2011) - looking-for-some-suggestion-mostly-verbal-117264.html#p950440

I specifically pointed out these two things.

Here is the blog post that gives you links of all the posts we have been putting on this topic for a long long time:
http://www.veritasprep.com/blog/2011/09 ... -old-song/

Things are not changing drastically. These changes have been going on for a while now. The test prep companies are aware and well prepared. We focus on these things in our SC books too. So there is no need to panic. GMAC has just formally declared what it has been doing for a while now.
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Karishma
Veritas Prep | GMAT Instructor
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Get started with Veritas Prep GMAT On Demand for $199 Veritas Prep Reviews Moderator Joined: 01 Sep 2010 Posts: 2994 Followers: 714 Kudos [?]: 5725 [0], given: 969 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 22 Sep 2011, 10:56 The same thing i thought tonight it does not make sense change in the running. I'm a strong fan of you karishma, for your awesome thinking. + 1 kudos _________________ Intern Joined: 28 Aug 2011 Posts: 5 Followers: 0 Kudos [?]: 0 [0], given: 0 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 23 Sep 2011, 05:59 Hi everyone ! I know that there already was an emphasis on the meaning of a sentence in that if a sentence was grammatically correct but introduced meaning changes, it was considered false. I also know that most of the prep companies' books highlight the importance of meaning, and that we already are well trained with CR and RC questions concerning that aspect. However, what is frightening to me is that maybe in theory we already knew that, but in practice we trained on CAT test (including GMATPrep software), and we trained on question that mostly focused on grammatical issues. For example, I know that I improve a lot by doing mock test, because I develop automatisms corresponding to the test I am training on. Thus, I know that certain methods or patterns that I am using to solve SC questions might be less adapted to the new pool of question. I will take the Gmat in 10 days, I hope that some material will be available by then. Manhattan GMAT Instructor Joined: 27 Sep 2007 Posts: 24 Followers: 61 Kudos [?]: 103 [1] , given: 0 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 23 Sep 2011, 07:26 1 This post received KUDOS Expert's post Hi, guys Two very important things: (1) Larry just got back into the office and was able to check on some of these idiom issues (he was traveling earlier this week). He was able to clarify that American-centric idioms and expressions are the ones that they have dropped / been dropping. Idioms that are not American-centric are still in. That's all he's told me so far - he said "more to come" in his email. I'll let you know when I have more. This, of course, begs the question: which ones are American-centric and which ones aren't? Unfortunately, there isn't a definitive list of the idioms which do get tested (and there are thousands of idioms in the language), so we can't just point and say "study this, don't study that." My guess is that the ones that we see in OG12 have probably already been mostly stripped of American-centric idioms, because they published that after they decided to start getting rid of the American-centric stuff. So the lesson there is to study what you see in official questions (which, interestingly, was what we already said before because there are, as we've noted, so many idioms in the language). Also - if you have learned non-American English (British English, for example) and see something where you think "really? I thought that was <something else that you learned>" - then ignore that one. (2) Thank you, Karishma, for adding to the conversation - yes, guys, we've been saying that these aren't *major* changes, though they are news and we do want to take action. In particular, meaning has always been there - it's just that there are proportionally more questions now. If you have been studying meaning, then you should be okay whether you have to answer 3 or 5 or 8 questions that hinge on meaning. (Note - I'm making those numbers up - we don't know how many questions will test meaning.) And meaning has been on GMATPrep CATs and other CATs as well, so you have been seeing meaning issues when you take CATs. If you have been neglecting meaning... then you have some work to do. But that would've been the case even if they hadn't said they've got more questions that revolve around meaning now. And re: the idioms, see above. Manhattan GMAT Instructor Joined: 27 Sep 2007 Posts: 24 Followers: 61 Kudos [?]: 103 [1] , given: 0 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 23 Sep 2011, 13:32 1 This post received KUDOS Expert's post An update on the meaning stuff: I've made it through 100 of the OG questions so far and there are even more meaning examples than I would have guessed (and I was expecting a decent number already). That's the good news. The bad news is that my list won't be out until Monday because this is taking longer than I anticipated (precisely because I didn't think there'd be so many good examples - so that's a good reason for the delay in the end). We'll be posting that list on our blog, but I'll come here to give you guys the link once it's up. Have a good week-end! Manager Status: Head Turner ! am I ? Affiliations: RHCE , CCNA, MCSE and Now GMAT ;) Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 139 Location: India WE: Operations (Computer Hardware) Followers: 12 Kudos [?]: 179 [0], given: 28 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 23 Sep 2011, 13:58 So the lesson there is to study what you see in official questions (which, interestingly, was what we already said before because there are, as we've noted, so many idioms in the language). Also - if you have learned non-American English (British English, for example) and see something where you think "really? I thought that was <something else that you learned>" - then ignore that one. Hi Stacey , Could you kindly elaborate the above to make it even more lucid for me Thanks Much ! Hoogly _________________ _______________________________________________ Am i worth a Kudo ? Life's around GMAT for the Moment Manager Status: MLT Fellowship - MBA Prep Affiliations: Beta Gamma Sigma - Business Honors Society, FINRA Securities Licenses, CA Insurance Licenses Joined: 29 Nov 2010 Posts: 174 Location: United States (CA) Concentration: Finance, Strategy GMAT 1: 700 Q48 V38 GMAT 2: 750 Q50 V42 GPA: 3.47 WE: Sales (Retail Banking) Followers: 10 Kudos [?]: 32 [0], given: 8 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 25 Sep 2011, 17:43 thank you stacey! I look forward to seeing your update tomorrow (Monday) _________________ Brandon Hoffman http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdhoffman Management Leadership of Tomorrow (MLT) - MBA Programs Fellow MLT LA Chapter - Board Member / Recruiting Officer Net Impact - Professional Chapter Co-President MBADiversity Organization - Global Fellow, CHINA Director Status: Prep started for the n-th time Joined: 29 Aug 2010 Posts: 707 Followers: 5 Kudos [?]: 149 [0], given: 37 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 26 Sep 2011, 18:13 Stacey, Thanks for all the updates !!! They are really useful. I would like to ask one question. Do you think certain types of questions will now become more common ? 1) Verb tenses - These questions are very meaning/intent oriented. 2) Comparisons - Another type which is heavy on the intent factor. Crick Intern Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Posts: 18 Concentration: Entrepreneurship Schools: Insead '13 (A) GMAT 1: 760 Q50 V41 Followers: 0 Kudos [?]: 0 [0], given: 1 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 27 Sep 2011, 07:05 Hi guys, This is my first post. About the meaning issue, I always wondered one thing. If within one question two choices are grammatically correct but with different meanings. Which one should be the reference? By meaning, do you mean incoherence? thx, Ben Manager Joined: 21 Nov 2010 Posts: 133 Followers: 0 Kudos [?]: 5 [0], given: 12 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 27 Sep 2011, 13:24 StaceyKoprince wrote: An update on the meaning stuff: I've made it through 100 of the OG questions so far and there are even more meaning examples than I would have guessed (and I was expecting a decent number already). That's the good news. The bad news is that my list won't be out until Monday because this is taking longer than I anticipated (precisely because I didn't think there'd be so many good examples - so that's a good reason for the delay in the end). We'll be posting that list on our blog, but I'll come here to give you guys the link once it's up. Have a good week-end! Stacey, Have you gotten the list posted on your blog? I'd like to say I'm excited, but how excited can you really get to study GMAT? Manhattan GMAT Student Services Associate Joined: 30 Oct 2009 Posts: 126 Location: Manhattan, NY Followers: 26 Kudos [?]: 22 [0], given: 0 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 27 Sep 2011, 13:38 Hey Guys, Stacey has gone through the first 100 OG q's and the results are posted here: http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... h-meaning/ More to come soon! Thanks, Stacey! Caitlin _________________ Caitlin Clay | Manhattan GMAT Student Services Associate | New York Manhattan GMAT Discount | Manhattan GMAT Reviews Manager Joined: 21 Nov 2010 Posts: 133 Followers: 0 Kudos [?]: 5 [0], given: 12 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 27 Sep 2011, 13:56 Thanks Stacey and Caitlin! Manager Joined: 16 Dec 2010 Posts: 138 Schools: MIT (Sloan) - Class of 2014 GMAT 1: 750 Q50 V41 GPA: 3.75 Followers: 3 Kudos [?]: 16 [0], given: 1 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 27 Sep 2011, 14:55 today i took the gmat, went from 740 in practice test to 650... dont know what to do Senior Manager Joined: 28 Jun 2009 Posts: 454 Location: United States (MA) Followers: 18 Kudos [?]: 150 [0], given: 46 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 27 Sep 2011, 15:49 I dont understand why the new "meaning" oriented SC should cause so much tension. I dont think its in favor of one group or against other. If anyone was doing SC problems without understanding meaning of the sentence and simply following rules they have mugged, then that is absolutelt wrong method. No-one can solve any of the gmat problem without understanding meaning. If the new SC is stressing on meaning rather that typical idioms, then it should be, infact, in favor of non-native speakers. And if a person is taking Gmat to get into American schools, then he/she has to learn the way Americans speak. There are many ways to get familiar with English day-to-day language. Some books and films have already been suggested on the forum. I think we all should happily welcome the new changes rather that creating horror about them. Veritas Prep GMAT Instructor Joined: 16 Oct 2010 Posts: 6827 Location: Pune, India Followers: 1913 Kudos [?]: 11909 [1] , given: 221 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 27 Sep 2011, 22:50 1 This post received KUDOS Expert's post Loki2612 wrote: Hi guys, This is my first post. About the meaning issue, I always wondered one thing. If within one question two choices are grammatically correct but with different meanings. Which one should be the reference? By meaning, do you mean incoherence? thx, Ben e.g. Incorrect - The findings of group A are more accurate than group B. Grammatically correct but incorrect meaning. Correct - The findings of group A are more accurate than those of group B. You compare findings of a group with findings of another group. You don't compare findings of a group with another group. Out of two different meanings, only one will be logically correct. _________________ Karishma Veritas Prep | GMAT Instructor My Blog Get started with Veritas Prep GMAT On Demand for$199

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Veritas Prep GMAT Instructor
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 6827
Location: Pune, India
Followers: 1913

Kudos [?]: 11909 [1] , given: 221

Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink]

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27 Sep 2011, 23:33
1
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Expert's post
piyatiwari wrote:
I dont understand why the new "meaning" oriented SC should cause so much tension. I dont think its in favor of one group or against other. If anyone was doing SC problems without understanding meaning of the sentence and simply following rules they have mugged, then that is absolutelt wrong method. No-one can solve any of the gmat problem without understanding meaning. If the new SC is stressing on meaning rather that typical idioms, then it should be, infact, in favor of non-native speakers. And if a person is taking Gmat to get into American schools, then he/she has to learn the way Americans speak. There are many ways to get familiar with English day-to-day language. Some books and films have already been suggested on the forum. I think we all should happily welcome the new changes rather that creating horror about them.

It is not "new" meaning oriented SC. It always has been meaning oriented. But people have been blindly trying to solve using just grammatical rules and have been suffering for it. The only thing is that lately, they have been focusing more on meaning oriented sentences since accuracy is very important (people have been neglecting it and suffering more and more). Look at the example above. Wouldn't you say that the first sentence is atrocious and illogical? All of us need to take care of accuracy in our day to day interactions.

The "new" SC is not stressing on meaning RATHER THAN typical idioms. There is no comparison here. Meaning was and is a very important component of SC.

Idioms, on the other hand, are passe (and have been for a long time). First of all, they involve rote memorization while GMAT focuses on 'Reasoning skills'. My software corrects me when I use an idiom incorrectly. Secondly, GMAC is trying to make it a level playing field for everyone. Would you use

They're WAITING ON the results of the vote before taking a final decision.
Or
They're WAITING FOR the results of the vote before taking a final decision.

I think your choice will depend on your background. If they test this in GMAT, the field is not level. GMAT is taken by students in 100s of countries and the scores are accepted by many schools outside US too. GMAT score is considered a standard to compare people across the globe. Inclusion of such questions will make GMAT unsuitable and it will not be considered an 'International standard exam'. Why would GMAT focus on making people learn English the 'American way' or 'British way'? If it did focus on the way English is spoken in one particular country, why would a school in India, say ISB, take GMAT scores while accepting Indians to study business and work in India?
GMAT is an international standard exam and has been for a long time. GMAC has been focusing on making it 'reasoning' oriented for a long time now. That is why we keep telling you to not focus too much on idioms. You should obviously know things such as "as many as" not "as many than" etc (things that are standard in every flavor of English) but I doubt they will test you on these.
While preparing for SC, think 'reason' and 'logic', not 'learn up the rules'.
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Karishma
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Get started with Veritas Prep GMAT On Demand for $199 Veritas Prep Reviews Intern Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Posts: 18 Concentration: Entrepreneurship Schools: Insead '13 (A) GMAT 1: 760 Q50 V41 Followers: 0 Kudos [?]: 0 [0], given: 1 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 28 Sep 2011, 00:28 VeritasPrepKarishma wrote: Loki2612 wrote: Hi guys, e.g. Incorrect - The findings of group A are more accurate than group B. Grammatically correct but incorrect meaning. Correct - The findings of group A are more accurate than those of group B. You compare findings of a group with findings of another group. You don't compare findings of a group with another group. Out of two different meanings, only one will be logically correct. Ok clearer. So in fact in your 1st example the sentence is just meaningless. So there couldn't be a case where we would have to choose between to options which would be grammatically correct and both meaningful Veritas Prep GMAT Instructor Joined: 16 Oct 2010 Posts: 6827 Location: Pune, India Followers: 1913 Kudos [?]: 11909 [0], given: 221 Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] ### Show Tags 28 Sep 2011, 01:49 Loki2612 wrote: VeritasPrepKarishma wrote: Loki2612 wrote: Hi guys, e.g. Incorrect - The findings of group A are more accurate than group B. Grammatically correct but incorrect meaning. Correct - The findings of group A are more accurate than those of group B. You compare findings of a group with findings of another group. You don't compare findings of a group with another group. Out of two different meanings, only one will be logically correct. Ok clearer. So in fact in your 1st example the sentence is just meaningless. So there couldn't be a case where we would have to choose between to options which would be grammatically correct and both meaningful Yes, that is what we mean by 'focus on the meaning'. Only one option will be logically sound. _________________ Karishma Veritas Prep | GMAT Instructor My Blog Get started with Veritas Prep GMAT On Demand for$199

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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink]

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28 Sep 2011, 01:54
In my opinion as information disseminates it loses its originality. So far there has not been a single direct statement from the side of GMAC. What feedbacks we are getting are second-hand and its not right to form an absolute opinion on such feedbacks. Opinions such as we simply don't need idioms any longer or any particular idiom will definitely not come on real Gmat etc are too immature and should not be made. Too see how information loses its originality see how MGMT's blog has been interpreted by another test prep company aristolerep - Posted 22/09/2011 Change #1 –' Idioms have been completely eliminated from the test'- This is an extremely hasty conclusion.

As a non-native speaker I have always struggled with grammar but I will not leave any efforts to get at least the score I deserve. And for getting that score I will not leave things on chances that idioms may have been completely removed . What if there are still some idioms tested on gmat and I get that ? GMAC has not even defined idioms. In strict sense idioms are special phrases whereas we believe correct usage of prepositions to be the idioms. However its great that issue of meaning has been raised, I always found meaning to be the most difficult and essential issue to understand while solving a Sc problem. Many people are posting questions involving meaning and its really helping us all. But this meaning issue should not be seen as New obstacle or something which is sure to make your score drop by 100 points. Irrespective of how much emphasis we are giving to meaning issue right now it was always tested on Gmat.
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink]

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29 Sep 2011, 07:44
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Official Response from the GMAC:

To Be Available on mba.com later today

[quote2Lawrence M. Rudner]Idioms, Sentence Correction, and the GMAT Exam

Recently there has been some discussion and questioning about the role and place of idioms and sentence correction as they apply to the skills tested in the GMAT exam. Much of what has been written has been well-reasoned, but some of what has been written is only partially accurate or reflects some misconceptions. With this posting, I hope to put these two important pieces of the GMAT exam in their proper place within the context of what the exam measures and how.

Idioms:

The general categories of language-use skill tested in GMAT Sentence Correction items haven’t
changed, and test takers do not need to do anything different to prepare for the Verbal section of the GMAT exam. For years, GMAC has paid close attention to the growing international make-up of GMAT test takers and has worked to assure that the exam is not viewed as─nor is it actually─an American test. As the GMAT exam has expanded globally and been taken by more students from around the world, GMAC has continually made extra efforts to ensure that newly introduced GMAT items do not depend on familiarity with distinctively American expressions and usages. We have taken steps all along the way to ensure global fairness and appropriateness.

Still, every language everywhere in the world consists of idioms, or standard constructions that are not literally derived from the most basic rules of grammar and vocabulary. Some Sentence Correction items continue to pose reasoning tasks that incorporate English-language, NOT American, idioms. These are not intended to test specialized knowledge of colloquialisms and regionalisms.

Grammar in Sentence Correction:

In recent years, GMAT item writers have been concentrating on the reasoning aspects rather than the purely grammatical aspects of Sentence Correction skills. As always, test takers need to carefully read the prompt in order to choose the answer that produces the most effective sentence. This means that whereas two sentences may both be grammatically appropriate, the correct answer is the sentence that is most “effective”─the sentence that better expresses the idea.

The end result is a GMAT exam that doesn’t test simply a person’s ability to memorize grammatical rules or recognize idioms for their colloquial meanings, but a test that rewards reasoning regardless of the test taker’s background.

The recent back and forth around whether idioms are in or out or how Sentence Correction works ignores the fact that the core purpose of the exam hasn’t ever changed, even as the way we treat certain categories in order to meet the needs of our ever expanding marketplace may have. The GMAT exam tests higher-order reasoning, and preparing for the exam remains an
exercise in developing and exercising those skills.

─Lawrence M. Rudner, GMAC vice president of research and development and chief psychometrician[/quote2]
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important)   [#permalink] 29 Sep 2011, 07:44

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# Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important)

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