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Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important)

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Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 16 Sep 2011, 22:17
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Dear all

recently people who had appeared GMAT after 15th august normally reported disappointments
and too much deviation from their Avg mock test score (as much as 80-90 points)
even I posted my De-Brief got-destroyed-610-from-119906.html
i also wrote in this post that SC was entirely different from all prep material 4-5 were short ones

some people must have thought its only a way to gain sympathy and etc etc

but here is the big news for all of you

GMAC has made my Statement Official now!!!!!!!!!
YESSSSSS
you are reading it right SC will no more be as you have done in your prep materials

recently held 4th summit of GMAC officials declare the below major changes
1 No idioms will be Tested anymore
2 more than one answer will be correct
3 SC will be more about meaning

these changes are going to make impact in the following way
1 GMAC indirectly saying that they are going to favor native speakers now as only native speakers can do this without any specific study
2 GMAC declared it after making changes as according to Dr. Larry Rudner (the man behind GMAT) declared by now the pool should have changed completely


So my dear test takers specially non native mates
there is no such SC oriented material in the market or on the web as far s my knowledge goes
for those who are still thinking that i am cooking some story

please check out this link

http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... orrection/

i would like you guys to come out with your strategy to fight with this

best from me
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 16 Sep 2011, 23:06
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Hmm Thanks much for spreading out the news ! I followed the link and came across some excerpts that made me feel more like , instead of penalizing , GMAC is trying to make SC neutral to native and non native speakers alike. It's more like GMAC is now really getting better in terms of a " Standardized Test " . Why ? let me quickly outlay my points based on the minutes of 4th GMAC Test Prep Summit.

Excerpts from the 4th GMAC Test Prep Summit :



Many students have been reporting that Sentence Correction on the real test has been feeling… different this year. We had some theories as to what was changing, and we were able to get confirmation yesterday from Dr. Larry Rudner, who is in charge of psychometrics for GMAC (or, in less fancy language, he’s the one who’s responsible for the overall development and construction of the test).

My Analysis : This is making me nervous and blows the life out of me. But again , without deep diving into the issue, i do not think there is a need to become apprehensive. Know the facts, Analyze whats being told , Check the authenticity of the source. Only once done , let's figure out if we really need to press the panic button and shriek for help !

They’ve been writing more Sentence Corrections that emphasize issues surrounding meaning. There are more questions now in which two or more answers are grammatically correct, but only one maintains the meaning of the original question stem.so those who are focusing primarily on grammar without paying much attention to meaning are going to find the real test a lot harder.

My Analysis : Is it not true ? GMAC did emphasize menaing and proper diction makes a effective expression.

In fact OG12 clearly states
    " An effective sentence expresses an idea or relationship clearly and concisely as well as grammatically ".What does it mean ? The term "clearly" in the above statement refers to a sentence being unambiguous. That is the intended meaning should be clear and a well chosen option based on POE by application of grammar rules should retain the intended meaning. The term "concisely" refers to concision or style. The latest MGMAT SC Guide clearly discusses this " Grammar , Meaning and Concision " in detail in the very second chapter.

    Also in Logical predication section of OG 12 , it is stated that " If modifiers are not positioned clearly, they can cause illogical references or distort the meaning of the statement. "

So, all i can say its not that we are not aware of this change rather the clear emphasis on meaning is something we need to look at. We do have material that highlights the theoriticial value of this concept but yes i agree we need more and more practice with questions like this. Can someone guide on some source that gives us such practice ? OG 12 has few questions like that. May be verbal review official guide will have such more ! I am not sure as of yet.

Larry also told us that they are moving towards completely phasing out idioms! They don’t want to penalize non-native speakers for things that don’t really interfere with comprehension and communication, so they are moving away from idioms entirely.

My Analysis : This is really great news ! No more we do need to memorize loads of idioms. I felt this is one topic that being unfair to all non native speakers and GMAC's move make more sense . I fell it is poised toward the real meaning of a " Standardized test " hmmm

When we asked how common idioms still are right now and when they would be gone completely, he said that “ideally” he hopes they’re all gone already, but there may still be some in the pool – it takes time to scrub the questions completely. So that’s big news – we really shouldn’t be worrying about idioms any longer!

My Analysis : Wow that's it ! Though i am not taking the focus away from Idioms completely. At-least I do not need to cram up several flash cards and shift my focus to several other things of SC.

So, really am not running around to press the panic button . Idioms are gone or on the verge of becoming invisible ! That's good. But what is the official or test prep sources which allow me to practice questions based on new emphasis of SC " the meaning " ? Perhaps i can use verbal review edition 2 or not . This is the one questions that bothers me. Man we need more practice that complements the recently emphasized part of SC ! I will wait for it and see.
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 16 Sep 2011, 23:40
O man...Are you guys saying these changes are already in effect?

Please confirm.

Thanks
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 16 Sep 2011, 23:42
vivgmat wrote:
O man...Are you guys saying these changes are already in effect?

Please confirm.

Thanks


read the below portion

Warlock007 wrote:
these changes are going to make impact in the following way
1 GMAC indirectly saying that they are going to favor native speakers now as only native speakers can do this without any specific study
2 GMAC declared it after making changes as according to Dr. Larry Rudner (the man behind GMAT) declared by now the pool should have changed completely



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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 16 Sep 2011, 23:46
Warlock007 wrote:
vivgmat wrote:
O man...Are you guys saying these changes are already in effect?

Please confirm.

Thanks


read the below portion

Warlock007 wrote:
these changes are going to make impact in the following way
1 GMAC indirectly saying that they are going to favor native speakers now as only native speakers can do this without any specific study
2 GMAC declared it after making changes as according to Dr. Larry Rudner (the man behind GMAT) declared by now the pool should have changed completely



This is a shock, I'm not too sure how confident one can be of SC preparation before sitting for the real GMAT
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 16 Sep 2011, 23:49
vivgmat wrote:
Warlock007 wrote:
vivgmat wrote:
O man...Are you guys saying these changes are already in effect?

Please confirm.

Thanks


read the below portion

Warlock007 wrote:
these changes are going to make impact in the following way
1 GMAC indirectly saying that they are going to favor native speakers now as only native speakers can do this without any specific study
2 GMAC declared it after making changes as according to Dr. Larry Rudner (the man behind GMAT) declared by now the pool should have changed completely



This is a shock, I'm not too sure how confident one can be of SC preparation before sitting for the real GMAT



same here budddy
please share your thoughts
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2011, 00:05
hoogly wrote:
They’ve been writing more Sentence Corrections that emphasize issues surrounding meaning. There are more questions now in which two or more answers are grammatically correct, but only one maintains the meaning of the original question stem.so those who are focusing primarily on grammar without paying much attention to meaning are going to find the real test a lot harder.

My Analysis : Is it not true ? GMAC did emphasize menaing and proper diction makes a effective expression.

In fact OG12 clearly states
    " An effective sentence expresses an idea or relationship clearly and concisely as well as grammatically ".What does it mean ? The term "clearly" in the above statement refers to a sentence being unambiguous. That is the intended meaning should be clear and a well chosen option based on POE by application of grammar rules should retain the intended meaning. The term "concisely" refers to concision or style. The latest MGMAT SC Guide clearly discusses this " Grammar , Meaning and Concision " in detail in the very second chapter.

    Also in Logical predication section of OG 12 , it is stated that " If modifiers are not positioned clearly, they can cause illogical references or distort the meaning of the statement. "

So, all i can say its not that we are not aware of this change rather the clear emphasis on meaning is something we need to look at. We do have material that highlights the theoriticial value of this concept but yes i agree we need more and more practice with questions like this. Can someone guide on some source that gives us such practice ? OG 12 has few questions like that. May be verbal review official guide will have such more ! I am not sure as of yet.

Larry also told us that they are moving towards completely phasing out idioms! They don’t want to penalize non-native speakers for things that don’t really interfere with comprehension and communication, so they are moving away from idioms entirely.

My Analysis : This is really great news ! No more we do need to memorize loads of idioms. I felt this is one topic that being unfair to all non native speakers and GMAC's move make more sense . I fell it is poised toward the real meaning of a " Standardized test " hmmm

When we asked how common idioms still are right now and when they would be gone completely, he said that “ideally” he hopes they’re all gone already, but there may still be some in the pool – it takes time to scrub the questions completely. So that’s big news – we really shouldn’t be worrying about idioms any longer!

My Analysis : Wow that's it ! Though i am not taking the focus away from Idioms completely. At-least I do not need to cram up several flash cards and shift my focus to several other things of SC.

Statement 1 So, really am not running around to press the panic button .
Statement 2 But what is the official or test prep sources which allow me to practice questions based on new emphasis of SC " the meaning " ? Perhaps i can use verbal review edition 2 or not . This is the one questions that bothers me. Man we need more practice that complements the recently emphasized part of SC ! I will wait for it and see.


Dear hoogly
after reading your post i am confused what are you upto
are you happy about the change
or you are sad about the changes

I think
either you are not aware of the gravity of the situation or this post
or you are ready for GMAT today
go and write
and then you will surely have something substantial to write here

and if you are ready then please ignore
this post is not meant for extra ordinary people like you
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2011, 00:33
Hi guys,

I am non-native and I tend to think that these changes will be positive. i think these will make the exam more equal between native and non-native testers. However, natives will always have some advantage
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2011, 00:38
DOM1 wrote:
Hi guys,

I am non-native and I tend to think that these changes will be positive. i think these will make the exam more equal between native and non-native testers.



hey Dom1
read the post properly
1 we dont have any specific material which handles meaning issue
2 native speakers normally prepares for idioms and grammer rules only for gmat SC but now they dont need to as meaning is a daily routine for them
as its their language

DOM1 wrote:
Hi guys,
However, natives will always have some advantage


we all know that there will always a bias (or advantage)
all i want to say is that now its huge instead of small earlier

hope you understand what i am trying to say
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2011, 00:49
Strategy to fight this. May be we can strt concentrating more on the CR part and RC part. Try to reduce timings on them. We should get advantage out of it.
But i guess, there will be more insights by prep companies on this.

But then srsly worried.... :(
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2011, 00:49
i have mixed opinions and i am not able to decide if it is for the good or for the bad... maybe i can only tell after the test...

ofcourse memorizing each of the idioms was a real pain.. and i used to get 1 or 2 of the q's wrong because i was not sure of the idioms.. so its a relief that we wont be tested in this sense...

on the other hand, i am not sure what gmac says when it means... testng sentence meanings...
lets hope its not too complex... i dont want to get more wrong answers on the meanings, than i did on idioms.. :-)

btw.. do we have some practice questions.. on types of q's gmac is going to test on?
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2011, 01:10
You are right. Idioms are real pain to memorize.
The point bothering me is.
There might be two answers with correct grammar.
And the right one will be the one with proper meaning.

Previously i ll narrow down to 2 options where idioms will come into play.

But then we need sample problems to exactly know what the changes are.
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2011, 01:13
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Warlock007 wrote:
DOM1 wrote:
Hi guys,

I am non-native and I tend to think that these changes will be positive. i think these will make the exam more equal between native and non-native testers.



hey Dom1
read the post properly
1 we dont have any specific material which handles meaning issue
2 native speakers normally prepares for idioms and grammer rules only for gmat SC but now they dont need to as meaning is a daily routine for them
as its their language

DOM1 wrote:
Hi guys,
However, natives will always have some advantage


we all know that there will always a bias (or advantage)
all i want to say is that now its huge instead of small earlier

hope you understand what i am trying to say


thanks... re-read your comments again..so we dont have any material with examples of the change that is gonna come our way.. its an interesting challenge...

hey warlock.. i am a non-native speaker... but then again i dont think gmac as an international testing committe would want to offer any bias as such.. so really... instead of fighting over spilt milk (changes), lets face the challenges and give our best shot...

lets take this as a scenario where the client might suddenly change his plans at the time of signing contracts... and we have to make our effort to beat around him to get our job done!! :-)
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2011, 02:53
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WarLock ...?

" 1 GMAC indirectly saying that they are going to favor native speakers now as only native speakers can do this without any specific study "

Where did GMAC say this ??? The only thing it says is " they are moving towards completely phasing out idioms! They don’t want to penalize non-native speakers for things that don’t really interfere with comprehension and communication"

Do you understand what the above statement means ? It means Idioms have nothing to do with comprehension ( meaning or logical understanding ) and so Idioms have been in the process of phasing out ? I do not understand where it is mentioned that they are going to favor native speakers ! Meaning refers to logical meaning of a sentence. an option might be grammatically correct but depending on words chosen or placement of words sometimes can change the meaning of the sentence ! This is what is being emphasized ! Analyze a given fact even before you dwell out scaring thousands of minds preparing for the GMAT !

Dude WarLock , may be your test did not go well and you are frightening number of native speakers on the forum !!!

This is pessimistic attitude and if you are planing to re take I wish it does not come in the way and you reach your target !

I am emphasizing once again, As per the gmat blog from Mgmat , all we could decipher is :

1. Emphasis has been on questions with normal grammatical errors but after elimination we are always left with two grammatically correct answers now. So, eliminate the one that intends the meaning of original sentence .Seems like this is already in place. I do not understand how it will be a disadvantage to non native speakers like us. We are giving a international standardized test and whats the point if our standards of deciphering the meaning upon reading a sentence is low ? Are we that bad at understanding the logical meaning a sentence tries to convey ? These are just rumors or wrongly understood by warlock based on Mgmat blog.

2. Idioms will be completely eliminated soon. As of now there a few questions based on idioms in the pool. This is definitely good news to non native speakers, we need to cram several idioms as before !

As Mgmat blog mentions, let us wait till Monday to get more information on this. As of now I really do not think there is need to raise an outrage . At least most of the test takers here i guess are intelligent enough to not panic based on a biased view of a disappointed individual. We are Gmat takers and people with work experience. All these things should induce a sense of deeper analysis of the things. This is what most of the Gmat verbal section expect from us. We prepare for Gmat and yet fail to apply our reasoning skills to practical situations and panic on even every small change we hear of ! ;)

I already gave a reply to this ! check out my latest post. Dude no overlapping conflicts or neither I am after you. All i am asking is to wait till Monday and do not agitate people with completely deviated understanding of the blog Hope you take it in a good sense and we are here to prepare for GMAT ! - Our Common Goal !
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2011, 03:14
Warlock007 wrote:
Dear all

these changes are going to make impact in the following way
1 GMAC indirectly saying that they are going to favor native speakers now as only native speakers can do this without any specific study
2 GMAC declared it after making changes as according to Dr. Larry Rudner (the man behind GMAT) declared by now the pool should have changed completely


So my dear test takers specially non native mates
there is no such SC oriented material in the market or on the web as far s my knowledge goes
for those who are still thinking that i am cooking some story



Hiii,

When you write reported speech, please report things unambiguously. Don't write 'gmac is indirectly saying tha't,but instead write 'in my opinion , gmat is indirectly saying that'.......

As far as Gmac is concerned, Gmat has got to make few changes in its structure to maintain its standard. Already GRE is being accepted by few business schools. Also GMAT is a exam of America and they don't have any obligation to make life easier for non-native speakers. Thirdly but not the last, if Gmac is not testing idioms then it is great for non-native speakers. Though I respect your personal view as what you feel about changes. Yet another thing, there are many non-native people who have been scoring 770 or good scores recently. Last but not the least, one punctuation mark after 'attention Gmat test takers' would have done fine, too many!!!! makes the thread ugly and looks shouting.
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2011, 03:33
Lets wait till monday for more insights.

Keeping fingers crossed.
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2011, 03:41
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ksp wrote:
Guys..
The subject of this topic followed by the 1st post created a lot o panic in me.
But then it doesn't seem to be so panicking.
As rightly said by hoogly, we can afford to wait till monday to get more insights on this rather than to press the panic button.



Dear KSP and other posters
where did I write the word PANIC

you are reading it wrong its ATTENTION

my only motives were as below
1 is there any material which accounts for this new orientation of GMAT
2 what strategy we should implement to counter this as earlier non natives have been mastering GMAT SC
3 the effect is far more than it looks from this post as the Meaning Issue will be too subtle it will not be a cakewalk as it was for idioms in which you need to remember almost 50-60 idioms
4 people who are not worried by this simple need to ignore this they are ready for GMAT SC by now as there will be less of rules and idioms and more of a meaning thing

last but not the least
instead of pointing out fingers please post something concrete in terms of material/approach

all the best to all GMAT takers
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2011, 04:25
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hey BB
thanks for the kudos
but your expert advice is needed man

please post your views on this
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2011, 04:45
Aj85 wrote:
Warlock007 wrote:
Dear all

these changes are going to make impact in the following way
1 GMAC indirectly saying that they are going to favor native speakers now as only native speakers can do this without any specific study
2 GMAC declared it after making changes as according to Dr. Larry Rudner (the man behind GMAT) declared by now the pool should have changed completely


So my dear test takers specially non native mates
there is no such SC oriented material in the market or on the web as far s my knowledge goes
for those who are still thinking that i am cooking some story



Hiii,

When you write reported speech, please report things unambiguously. Don't write 'gmac is indirectly saying tha't,but instead write 'in my opinion , gmat is indirectly saying that'.......

As far as Gmac is concerned, Gmat has got to make few changes in its structure to maintain its standard. Already GRE is being accepted by few business schools. Also GMAT is a exam of America and they don't have any obligation to make life easier for non-native speakers. Thirdly but not the last, if Gmac is not testing idioms then it is great for non-native speakers. Though I respect your personal view as what you feel about changes. Yet another thing, there are many non-native people who have been scoring 770 or good scores recently. Last but not the least, one punctuation mark after 'attention Gmat test takers' would have done fine, too many!!!! makes the thread ugly and looks shouting.


Firstly, I never asked the GMAT to make anything easier for anybody. As a STANDARDISED test, the GMAT HAS an obligation to make the test EQUAL for everyone. If thousands of b-schools are accepting the GMAT, then I believe it is subject to some integrity. GMAT removing idioms is, perhaps, good news - I would still say that learning idioms is very easy - but testing the questions on meaning makes them more difficult in that it will be hard to PREPARE for the test the way we used to. Grammar can be learned because the rules are fixed. But meaning is a totally different ball game, something that is developed over years and CANNOT be understood too quickly. And if these changes are to COMPETE with GRE then honestly, I don't think its any test-taker's problem. If the changes have been made, they should reflect in GMAT PREP or IMHO, they should have released OG 13 earlier. How do you justify, GMAT Prep throwing questions that are as old as 2008, when those questions are quite far from the real thing. I also understand that GMAT Prep is to give us a FEEL of the test, but then for those weaker students, shouldn't there be some more official questions that reflect the changes on the test ??

I never asked to make the test easy. Infact I love the GMAT. Its much better than many other standardised tests. But there should have been some indications to reflect the changes in the test. I had always feared this.

I think I would put little more blame on the of test prep companies that make non-standard material and actually ruin a candidates preparation. I wont name any company, but I think a GMAT Test taker should be extremely cautious in choosing a prep company's material.
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Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important) [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2011, 04:55
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Memorising idioms is a cakewalk ? :O

Meaning change = misplaced modifier + Dangling modifier + omitting a crucial word like 'May' etc etc. Its not that meaning change has not been taught in test prep books till now. Meaning change is a big part of modifier error and even faulty comparisons.

Incorrect meaning -Jim biked along an old dirt road to get to his house, which cut through
the woods.

Corrected version - To get to his house, Jim biked along an old dirt road, which cut
through the woods.

Altered intent also makes meaning changes.

original sentence > Red wine, the finding of recent studies, may prevent serious heart problems in many adults (mgmat 1st edition)

corrected version 1 > Recent studies have found red wine to prevent heart problems in many adults.

corrected version 2 > Recent studies have found that red wine may prevent heart problems in many adults.

corrected version 1 is incorrect because it changes the meaning by omitting key word 'may'.

Again I say from your first post it looks you are seriously thinking Gmat's changes is absolutely against non-native speakers . You derived an absolutely wrong conclusion from manhattan blog. Be calm and cool and focus on studies. May be you and I cant beat Gmat. so what ? many people do. many people have done. Its not right to get demoralised by structural changes. Take everything in a positive way. and if you re-read the blog with cool head you will find the blog said 'There are already some examples of this in the existing, released materials (more about this on Monday), but these didn’t used to be as common'.

And again, the way you have reported manhattan blog is absolutely incorrect.

Many people getting destroyed etc ?. Considering many test takers don't even bother to write debriefs its completely illogical to derive inferences on small sample of any statistics.
Re: Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important)   [#permalink] 17 Sep 2011, 04:55
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