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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
blueseas wrote:
Asifpirlo wrote:
ax + by=10
ay + bx=12

which one is greater here, x or y ?

(1) a > b
(2) a/b > 1



ax + by=10
bx + ay=12

subtracting these 2

(b-a)x + (a-b)y =2
or
(a-b)x - (a-b)y = -2
(a-b)(x-y) = -2

statement 1:
a>b and
(a-b)(x-y) = -2
(+)*(-)= -ve
therefore x-y<0
hence x<y
sufficient

statement 2:
a/b>1
(a-b)/b > 1
now a-b can be positive or negative
hence insufficient

hence A



algebraic solution..very good.. i knew it. but i love geometry that"s why went that way....
you did a fantastic job here too... i appreciate it... so nice
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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
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blueseas wrote:
Asifpirlo wrote:
ax + by=10
ay + bx=12

which one is greater here, x or y ?

(1) a > b
(2) a/b > 1



ax + by=10
bx + ay=12

subtracting these 2

(b-a)x + (a-b)y =2
or
(a-b)x - (a-b)y = -2
(a-b)(x-y) = -2

statement 1:
a>b and
(a-b)(x-y) = -2
(+)*(-)= -ve
therefore x-y<0
hence x<y
sufficient

statement 2:
a/b>1
(a-b)/b > 1
now a-b can be positive or negative
hence insufficient

hence A


Can you please explain a little bit more about the statement 2. How did you arrive at (a-b) ? I solved it as follows:
\(\frac{a}{b} >1\)
Multiply both sides by b.
\(a>b\)
This is the same as Statement 1. Hence the answer is D. Please clarify the answer.
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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
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hb wrote:

Can you please explain a little bit more about the statement 2. How did you arrive at (a-b) ? I solved it as follows:
\(\frac{a}{b} >1\)
Multiply both sides by b.
\(a>b\)
This is the same as Statement 1. Hence the answer is D. Please clarify the answer.


highlited portion is wrong a/b>1
as you are multiplying both sides with b
there will be 2 cases
case 1: b>0
if b is +ve then equality sign doesnt change and hence you can come to a>b
case 2: b<0
if b is -ve then equality sign changes reslting equation will become a<b

now since we are not aware whether b is positive or negative so it is advisable not to multiply with b rather bring all thing on one side
therefore \(\frac{a}{b}-1>0\)
solving this \(\frac{(a-b)}{b}>0\)
now if b is-ve then a-b needs to be -ve hence a-b<0==> a<b
if b is +ve then a-b needs to be +ve hence a-b>0==> a>b

hope this helps

Originally posted by blueseas on 06 Aug 2013, 04:20.
Last edited by blueseas on 06 Aug 2013, 14:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
Bunnuel can you attempt this one. Not entirely convinced of the solution. I may be missing something.

Solving for \(x\)and \(y\)in terms of \(a\) and \(b\) and then making\(x>y\) results in the following inequality

\((a+b)^2(a-b) < 0\)

Now \(a > b\) is NOT sufficient for this inequality because we can have \(5 > -5\) making \((a+b)^2(a-b) = 0\)
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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
AbhiJ wrote:
Bunnuel can you attempt this one. Not entirely convinced of the solution. I may be missing something.

Solving for \(x\)and \(y\)in terms of \(a\) and \(b\) and then making\(x>y\) results in the following inequality

\((a+b)^2(a-b) < 0\)

Now \(a > b\) is NOT sufficient for this inequality because we can have \(5 > -5\) making \((a+b)^2(a-b) = 0\)



blueseas your reply is more than satisfactory...really fine
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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
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AbhiJ wrote:
Bunuel can you attempt this one. Not entirely convinced of the solution. I may be missing something.

Solving for \(x\)and \(y\)in terms of \(a\) and \(b\) and then making\(x>y\) results in the following inequality

\((a+b)^2(a-b) < 0\)

Now \(a > b\) is NOT sufficient for this inequality because we can have \(5 > -5\) making \((a+b)^2(a-b) = 0\)


Actually you are missing out on an important point. You have ASSUMED that x>y and also, the fact IS that a>b. Thus, in your final expression which is :

\((a+b)^2(a-b) < 0\), all the terms are non negative, and it can never be negative. Thus, the assumption that x>y is wrong.

Another method: From F.S 1, we have

ax + by=10
ay + bx=12

Subtract both, and we get : \((a-b)x+y(b-a) = -2 \to (a-b)(x-y) =-2\). Now, given that a>b, i.e. a-b>0. Thus, \((x-y)<0 \to x<y.\) Sufficient.

From F.S 2, if you notice closely, the only difference between this and the previous fact statement is that in this case, we don't know if a>b or not. We are just given that \(\frac{a}{b}>1\). Depending upon the sign of b, we could end up with a>b OR a<b.

Thus, using the same equation which we got above, i.e. (a-b)(x-y) =-2, for a>b we will end up with x>y(just as above) and for a<b, we will have (a-b)<0. Thus, x-y will have to be positive in this case. Thus, Insufficient.

Hope this helps.
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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
\(ax + by = 10\)
\(bx + ay = 12\)
Solving for\(x\) and \(y\)we have

\(x = (12b-10a)/(b^2-a^2)\\
y = (10b- 12a)/(b^2-a^2)\)

Since the question stem says \(x > y\) we do the same and try to find the relation between \(a\) and \(b\).

\((12b-10a)/(b^2-a^2) > (10b- 12a)/(b^2-a^2)\)

We get \((b+a)/[(b+a)(b-a)] > 0\)------------(I)

From I we cannot cancel \((b+a)\)from numerator and denominator unless we know\((b+ a) =! 0\), since the question doesnot mention that \((b + a)\) is not equal to \(0\) we cannot conclude that for \(x > y\) we need \(b > a\) or vice versa. For example if we have \(b = 5 & a = -5\) here we have\(b > a\)but the expression I is not defined.

Hence believe A is NOT the answer.
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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
AbhiJ wrote:
\(ax + by = 10\\
\\
bx + ay = 12\)

Solving for\(x\) and \(y\)we have

\(x = (12b-10a)/(b^2-a^2)\\
y = (10b- 12a)/(b^2-a^2)\)

Since the question stem says \(x > y\) we do the same and try to find the relation between \(a\) and \(b\).

\((12b-10a)/(b^2-a^2) > (10b- 12a)/(b^2-a^2)\)

We get \((b+a)/(b+a)(b-a) > 0\)------------(A)

From A we cannot cancel \((b+a)\)from numerator and denominator unless we know\((b+ a) =! 0\), since the question doesnot mention that (b + a) = 0
we cannot conclude that for \(x > y\) we need \(b > a\) or vice versa.


hi abhi ,

great effort for solving for X and Y.

As the final equation is (as per your calculation)= \((b+a)/(b+a)(b-a) > 0\)
b+a cant be equal to zero since statement 1 says that a>b so it means they are not equal hence a+b cant be equal to zero.
for a+b=0...the above equation is not defined as you will have 0 in denominator.

moreover i dont understand why you are saying that you cannot cancel a+b....there is no problem in cancelling out a+b.
hence the end equation becomes:
\((1)/(b-a) > 0\)
now it depends on which one is greater ...and statement one clearly says a>b hence
so you are getting definite ANSWER NO.

i hope i have not puzzled you more.
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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
Bluseas lets say \(a = 5\) \(b = -5\) here we have \(a > b\) but \(a + b = 0\).

Can you cancel a +b from numerator and denominator ?
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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
AbhiJ wrote:
Bluseas lets say \(a = 5\) \(b = -5\) here we have \(a > b\) but \(a + b = 0\).

Can you cancel a +b from numerator and denominator ?


my bad..

mistake from my side.

but i will say when you are deriving X and Y ..in terms of a and b ...DENOMINATOR cannot be zero ...if that is zero then in that case X and Y are not defined ...and since GMAT deals with real numbers so we have to understand that a+b or a-b cant be zero.

now i would like to know what was your concern...as you were saying that you cannot cancel a+b.
can you just elaborate.

thanks
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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
AbhiJ wrote:
\(ax + by = 10\)
\(bx + ay = 12\)
Solving for\(x\) and \(y\)we have

\(x = (12b-10a)/(b^2-a^2)\\
y = (10b- 12a)/(b^2-a^2)\)

Since the question stem says \(x > y\) we do the same and try to find the relation between \(a\) and \(b\).

\((12b-10a)/(b^2-a^2) > (10b- 12a)/(b^2-a^2)\)

We get \((b+a)/[(b+a)(b-a)] > 0\)------------(I)

From I we cannot cancel \((b+a)\)from numerator and denominator unless we know\((b+ a) =! 0\), since the question doesnot mention that \((b + a)\) is not equal to \(0\) we cannot conclude that for \(x > y\) we need \(b > a\) or vice versa. For example if we have \(b = 5 & a = -5\) here we have\(b > a\)but the expression I is not defined.

Hence believe A is NOT the answer.


Add the given equations :

\(ax + by = 10\)
\(bx + ay = 12\)

You get x(a+b)+y(a+b) = \(22 \to (a+b)(x+y)=22\). Thus, (a+b) CAN NEVER EQUAL ZERO.
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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
mau5 wrote:
AbhiJ wrote:
\(ax + by = 10\)
\(bx + ay = 12\)
Solving for\(x\) and \(y\)we have

\(x = (12b-10a)/(b^2-a^2)\\
y = (10b- 12a)/(b^2-a^2)\)

Since the question stem says \(x > y\) we do the same and try to find the relation between \(a\) and \(b\).

\((12b-10a)/(b^2-a^2) > (10b- 12a)/(b^2-a^2)\)

We get \((b+a)/[(b+a)(b-a)] > 0\)------------(I)

From I we cannot cancel \((b+a)\)from numerator and denominator unless we know\((b+ a) =! 0\), since the question doesnot mention that \((b + a)\) is not equal to \(0\) we cannot conclude that for \(x > y\) we need \(b > a\) or vice versa. For example if we have \(b = 5 & a = -5\) here we have\(b > a\)but the expression I is not defined.

Hence believe A is NOT the answer.


Add the given equations :

\(ax + by = 10\)
\(bx + ay = 12\)

You get x(a+b)+y(a+b) = \(22 \to (a+b)(x+y)=22\). Thus, (a+b) CAN NEVER EQUAL ZERO.


As a DS problem we are supposed to consider extreme cases, thus the question should have included the fact that a + b =!0.
If this was a GMAT problem the above fact would have been mentioned.

If \(x + y\) is infinity, then \(a + b\) can be equal to 0;

Lets say a = 5 b = -5 , we get a series of equations

\(x - y = 2\)
\(x - y = -2.4\)

This is a pair of parallel lines which do not intersect at any point(intersect at infinity). Hence we cannot say if \(x > y\) or NOT.

Asking Bunuel to look into this question.
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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
Why can't it be D ?
If a/b >1,
Then a>b.

Experts: Please explain
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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
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tanvis1120 wrote:
Why can't it be D ?
If a/b >1,
Then a>b.

Experts: Please explain


You cannot multiply both sides of a/b > 1 by b and write a > b, because you don't know the sign of b. If b > 0, then yes, a > b but if b < 0, then when multiplying by negative value (b), we must flip the sign and write a < b.

Hope it's clear.
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ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
mau5 wrote:
AbhiJ wrote:
\(ax + by = 10\)
\(bx + ay = 12\)
Solving for\(x\) and \(y\)we have

\(x = (12b-10a)/(b^2-a^2)\\
y = (10b- 12a)/(b^2-a^2)\)

Since the question stem says \(x > y\) we do the same and try to find the relation between \(a\) and \(b\).

\((12b-10a)/(b^2-a^2) > (10b- 12a)/(b^2-a^2)\)

We get \((b+a)/[(b+a)(b-a)] > 0\)------------(I)

From I we cannot cancel \((b+a)\)from numerator and denominator unless we know\((b+ a) =! 0\), since the question doesnot mention that \((b + a)\) is not equal to \(0\) we cannot conclude that for \(x > y\) we need \(b > a\) or vice versa. For example if we have \(b = 5 & a = -5\) here we have\(b > a\)but the expression I is not defined.

Hence believe A is NOT the answer.


Add the given equations :

\(ax + by = 10\)
\(bx + ay = 12\)

You get x(a+b)+y(a+b) = \(22 \to (a+b)(x+y)=22\). Thus, (a+b) CAN NEVER EQUAL ZERO.


i have also added both equation
and getting (a+b)(x+y)=22.
putting any vale as a>b
say a=2 b=0 then x can be 11 and y=0 making x>y or y=11 and x=0 making X<y.
can any one tell me why its not working here????
because if i put those values again individually in ax + by = 10..its not satisfying same

thanx..
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ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
Asifpirlo wrote:
ax + by=10
ay + bx=12

which one is greater here, x or y ?

(1) a > b
(2) a/b > 1


ay+bx=12, ax+by=10
a(y-x)+b(x-y)=2
(y-x)=-(x-y)=(-x+y)=(y-x);
a*-(x-y)+b(x-y)=2, -a(x-y)+b(x-y)=2, (x-y)(b-a)=2
if x-y<0, then b-a<0 and b<a [because, (neg)(neg)>0]
if x-y>0, then b-a>0 and b>a [because, (pos)(pos)>0]

(1) a > b sufic

a>b, then x>y

(2) a/b > 1 insufic

if a,b=-3,-1: -3/-1=3>1, then a<b
if a,b=3,1: 3/1=3>1, then a>b

Ans (A)

Originally posted by exc4libur on 23 Jan 2020, 09:32.
Last edited by exc4libur on 17 Jun 2020, 04:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ax + by=10, ay + bx=12. which one is greater here, x or y ? [#permalink]
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exc4libur wrote:
Asifpirlo wrote:
ax + by=10
ay + bx=12

which one is greater here, x or y ?

(1) a > b
(2) a/b > 1


ay+bx=12, ax+by=10
a(y-x)+b(x-y)=2
(y-x)=-(x-y)=(-x+y)=(y-x);
a*-(x-y)+b(x-y)=2, -a(x-y)+b(x-y)=2, (x-y)(a-b)=2
if x-y<0, then a-b<0 and a<b [because, (neg)(neg)>0]
if x-y>0, then a-b>0 and a>b [because, (pos)(pos)>0]

(1) a > b sufic

a>b, then x>y

(2) a/b > 1 insufic

if a,b=-3,-1: -3/-1=3>1, then a<b
if a,b=3,1: 3/1=3>1, then a>b

Ans (A)


How is -a(x-y)+b(x-y)=2 =>(x-y)(a-b)=2 ?

Shouldn't it be (x-y)(b-a) = 2 ?

End result (A) is correct but the steps are wrong.
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