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Bad Attitude

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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 20:13
Well...I think there are only certain schools that these high flying PE associates apply to- (the trinity). The rest of the schools dont seem to attract the high flyers nor do they seem to be biased towards. It is the same aura of exclusivity that drives the value of a HSW higher...sort of an italian sports car or something right?

But I truly believe that each of us will be a 'fit' in some school...might not be the highest ranked or the most popular on b-week, but one where you will have opportunities to 'level' the playing field between the high flying PE assoc and yourself ...
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 20:24
Asish, you answer your own question.

ashish.mahendra wrote:
Besides, how do I know that the person reading my resume and my essays really understands my business and my achievements............


Compare what you said here to your comment about s/w engineers who sit in front of computers all day and how they dont exhibit any leadership. You probably made the statement about indian s/w folks without really understanding that even in those so-called nerdy jobs, you need to exhibit leadership day in and day out. Even a s/w professional would have demonstrated leadership as long as he/she excelled at work. Think about this, in any crowded environment, unless you are outstanding you wouldn't be successful.

But no matter what, many people make an automatic assumption that an IT consultant doesnt have any leadership abilities. You made the same assumption. The primary reason for this is the lack of understanding of how the tech consulting business runs. When hbs_aspirant talks about how thousands of these leaders are forced to work in an undervalued profession due to circumstances, you countered by saying that it doesnt matter. Yet,you also offer the same defence saying that you hated the subject and professor when you studied and thats why you underperformed.


All this answers your original question resoundingly. That how great you are as an applicant is to a large extent based on the perception of the reader. He/she may not know zip or has incorrect assumptions about the nature of your work. If thats the case, your app, in avi's words, would be flushed down the drain.

My intention is not to disrespect you, but to highlight how ad-coms automatically make assumptions about an applicant, purely based on background.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 20:36
alright, i get you nc.

My rant was based on the fact that for overrepresented groups, applicants are at a significant disadvantage sometimes.

Anyhow, I do understand IT consulting since I was consulting for an year and a half. My perception is based on my experience, not a presumption.

My apologies to everyone who I may have offended.

Its probably the stress of the applications getting to me I guess.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 20:59
You've gotta be on prasad's good side. Else you just get ripped apart! :shock:

Very insightful post, prasad.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 21:34
I have deep respect for IT consulting folks. Reasons are below

1. clients look upon them as untouchables - I have never seen an IT consultant in a swank office. Always sitting on a tool beside the water cooler, hunching under the photocopy machine to find the extra power outlet.

2. Gets snubbed by every Tom, Dick, Harry who thinks they have some worthless spreadsheets that are invaluable to IT guys. You call the tom bastard for that info, he doesnt return ur call, pretends to act busy while digging his nose and flicking the booger into oblivion.

3. Has to kiss ass.. a lot of asses.. if a client says.. "umm we dont want any consulting services this year. the secretary needs a new diamond necklace else she is gonna spill the boss's affair to the wife". Project gets pulled off, IT consultants get bundled on the next cargo plane out to Omaha, Idaho, Timbucktoo and some project, where you have to dust off key boards...so to prevent that occurence.. try to please one and all..

4. Always assumed by client that IT consultants are computer gurus.. hell the biggest computer guru is sitting in Seattle on a 4 billion dollar bed.. go to him for advice, not us..we came to fix a problem about ur ERP system, not format your hard drive and make sure that the mouse ball is not acting funny

In my opinion, auditors and IT consultants are the lowest on the food chain.. All the people we service are called "clients", we stay in hotel rooms that even a self respecting hooker wont touch, the red-eye flights are in business because of us....

so before a job is all about sitting in front of computers and swatting flies, think again... :lol:

no disrespect to anyone... and no job is worthless.. We learn valuable from everything.. besides, I think I would have a better chance getting into H/S/W if I was a milkman than some fancy internal auditor...

lots of community service, a very different job, and possibly the biologicial father of many unknowing kids in the suburbs..
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 21:36
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Last edited by hbs.aspirant on 12 Jan 2008, 16:18, edited 1 time in total.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 21:48
I don't know about bschool but at work and at my undergrad people from Canada weren't really considered to be "international students". They did fall under that category but in all honesty they were regarded as US apps.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 21:53
shmegs wrote:
I don't know about bschool but at work and at my undergrad people from Canada weren't really considered to be "international students". They did fall under that category but in all honesty they were regarded as US apps.


Same at my work place too. I was only pointing to fact that we are not overrepresented, unless there is an undeclared quota for countries. If the admission process is blind of race and country, I bet there will be way more Indians admitted than are admitted now.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 22:00
I agree, but unfortunately, fortuately for some, that isn't the case. There are a ton more Indians in bschool today and at places like Dardent the number has risen to 40-50 from 3-5 a decade ago. That represents a huge chunk out of the overall student body. At the same time I am in favour of schools maintaining a diverse student body. If that means quotas so be it, it's not good to have a student body with 90+% US students nor is it good to have 30-40% from a particular international country. It's not fair, but I believe it does provide the best atmosphere. That being said the number of Indian students is only going to increase but it will remain uber competitive as the number of applicants from India is skyrocketing.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 22:41
hbs.aspirant wrote:
When we talk about Indians in top schools, many of them are not really "Indians". They are second genration of immigrants.
I would disagree with that. At least in terms of statistics, students only count as Indians if they hold an Indian passport. If they were to add 2nd generation Indians, the % would more than double.

L.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 22:48
hbs.aspirant wrote:
India has 17% of world's population, and Canada 0.5%. yet they are represented equally at HBS.


Can you ellaborate? Why do you think global population proportions should be mirrored in class compositions? Why not GDP or other metrics? And in either case, why not more Chinese than Indians?

L.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 22:54
lepium wrote:
hbs.aspirant wrote:
India has 17% of world's population, and Canada 0.5%. yet they are represented equally at HBS.


Can you ellaborate? Why do you think global population proportions should be mirrored in class compositions? Why not GDP or other metrics? And in either case, why not more Chinese than Indians?

L.


I was just questioning the meaning of "Over representation by Indians".
Why is it considered that indians are over represented?
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 22:57
lepium wrote:
hbs.aspirant wrote:
India has 17% of world's population, and Canada 0.5%. yet they are represented equally at HBS.


Why do you think global population proportions should be mirrored in class compositions?

L.


Read between the lines, I don't. I said if school is blind of race and country, more Indians will get in.
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Re: Bad Attitude [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 22:59
johnnyx9 wrote:
By the end of the whole application process I was pretty tired of it
all. Did anybody else get tired of second-guessing everything? There
are some hypocritical elements of the "ad-com" stance. Montauk's book
has quotes from ad-coms where they talk about what they look for, and
there are a lot of conflicting things that drove me nuts. For instance
things like (making these up) :

"A lot of people get caught in the trap of telling us what they think
we want to hear, we just want essays that show a person's personality,
they shouldn't be concerned about what they think we want to hear," -
Jackass Ad-com #1

"When we read essays, we want very specific examples of why you want
to do XYZ. We expect applicants to have a crystal clear vision of why
they need an MBA, what companies they might work for, what specific
classes they're interested in," Jackass Ad-com #2

"Some essays people mention specific companies they want to work for
and positions they want. This is silly because we know many people
want to change industries, and that level of detail seems silly, so we
really just look for people with a good sense of their own strengths
and weaknesses," Jackass Ad-com #3

"Don't just give us a bunch of examples of why you're a great leader,
tell us why," Jackass Ad-com #4

"Show, don't tell," Jackass Ad-com #5

It all gets aggravating after a while, all the contradictions. There
were some discussions here (or was it on BW) where people were arguing
over Stern essay #1 that asks "Why an MBA?" Some people said that the
question necessarily implies "Why Stern?" while other people said,
"Read the question, they don't ask about Stern in that essay so don't
address that, ad-coms want to know that you can follow the
directions."

At the end of the day I kind of have this bad attitude, like F all of
that stuff, here's my application, if you don't like the fact that I
didn't mention specific classes then F off. Or if you don't like that I DID mention specific classes, F off. And if you think my career vision is too
specific, F off. If you think it's too vague then F off. How do you
like me now?


thank you for this post. In all honesty, thank you. I'm feeling this acutely right now and its very, very hard. I'm almost hoping I don't get in anywhere.

I'm really glad that even if its just the two of us feeling like this, I'm not alone.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 23:03
lepium wrote:
hbs.aspirant wrote:
When we talk about Indians in top schools, many of them are not really "Indians". They are second genration of immigrants.
I would disagree with that. At least in terms of statistics, students only count as Indians if they hold an Indian passport. If they were to add 2nd generation Indians, the % would more than double.

L.


From the news few days back

Out of the 900 students who joined this year and will graduate in 2009, 38 students are from India or of Indian origin.

Indian origin applies to people with parents or grand parents born in India. Indian passport is not the requirement for Indian origin.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 23:06
zakk, make that three of us. I specially liked the "How do you like me now?" part :lol:

Last edited by mNeo on 04 Dec 2007, 23:10, edited 1 time in total.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 23:08
hbs.aspirant wrote:
lepium wrote:
hbs.aspirant wrote:
India has 17% of world's population, and Canada 0.5%. yet they are represented equally at HBS.


Can you ellaborate? Why do you think global population proportions should be mirrored in class compositions? Why not GDP or other metrics? And in either case, why not more Chinese than Indians?

L.


I was just questioning the meaning of "Over representation by Indians".
Why is it considered that indians are over represented?


The normal perception is that they are overrepresented at the applicant level, not at the admitted students level. This perception, however, is not based on solid data as schools don't provide the breakdown. If I'm correct GMAT takers and/or forums activity levels are used as proxies to measure applicant mix.

L.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 23:17
hbs.aspirant wrote:
lepium wrote:
hbs.aspirant wrote:
India has 17% of world's population, and Canada 0.5%. yet they are represented equally at HBS.


Why do you think global population proportions should be mirrored in class compositions?

L.


Read between the lines, I don't. I said if school is blind of race and country, more Indians will get in.


While I get the point you made on your 2nd post, I still don't see how how overall country population is related to anything.

You could just mention quantity of applicants vs quantity of admitted students for each country and then I could actually "read between the lines". The problem is that you don't have those numbers because nobody publishes them, so you need an estimation. But overall population? That's a really far-fetched proxy for applicant numbers, IMHO. I mean, how can you honestly know that more Indians than Canadians apply to a specific school? And even if you knew, how would you know what their quality* distributions look like? I think that even when the conclusions might be right the logic is flawed.

Thanks. L.
*assuming quality could be estimated as a single number assigned to the overall holistic evaluation of applicants.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 23:28
wow, I actually did read this thread a while ago, which is where I found the gem that Rhyme and pelihu put out on the statistics of Kellogg (now in the 2008 Pants Pooping links somewhere) versus GMAT scores.

Very interesting how the sentiments and feelings are the same, a year later. I too think the whole process is pretty random, but I'm not bitter, yet. I'll wait until end of January to be bitter (when I get rejected from every school).
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 23:41
L,
I am not the starting point for this debate. I was defending against the "Over representation" fact.

That is becoming the reason to get in only the star profile.

Because India is not one, and it's not in many parts as people say. It's just 2 parts. Privileged and not privileged.

So out of that pool, if you keep the selctivity tight based on more number of applicants, only the star profiles get in. You be the judge of this for me. Prove me wrong by telling me about a HBS student, who is a poor farmer's son from India and only engineering graduate in his whole village.

For example, follow this profile:

A son from a family living on welfare in Alabama, minority, 3.0 GPA, 750 GMAT, software engineer. A brother in family with cancer.
Doesn't it look like a profile a consultant can turn into a star story? Result? Admit to one of H/W/S.

Same story minus Alabama plus India minus welfare plus poverty. Result? you know better than me.
  [#permalink] 04 Dec 2007, 23:41
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