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Bad Attitude

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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 17:49
I completely agree with Ripper on the fact that people who are recently out of college have a better chance to score higher.

Take my case, I have been out of school for the last 5 years.Now I took the derivatives and risk management class in school.Hated the prof and hated the subject.Got into trading and all i've done is trade and analyse markets. and I dare say, I've done well so far.

In view of that, my grades in school do not reflect the fact that I've made money on my trades.And I can only specify so much in the essays about my trading success.

Besides, how do I know that the person reading my resume and my essays really understands my business and my achievements............

Another thing, coming from an overrepresented majority of the applicant pool, I feel I am shortchanged at every step. there are those studs out there who can score in the 700's. But talk of quality of work and most of them sit on front of their computers and program all day. Their quality of work experience to my mind isnt too great. Afterall, the kind of leadership and business skills you can develop in those kind of jobs are limited.

No matter what schools say, GMAT is the most important factor in the end. GMAT scores are a big factor in deciding the rankings. Afterall, schools have to improve on the rankings coz that means more applicants and more money in grants/sponsorships the next year.

And finally, community service. For anyone worth his salt who works 6 days and 80+ hours a week really doesnt get much time to get involved in community service. Add to that travel for work and it gets worse.

As a friend of mine says, community service is a pastime of the richer societies. If you got 2 days a week that you dont have to work, you can plan out community service accordingly.

Ask anyone who has had a position of responsibility or accountability in a company in the developing economies or for that matter peoplke in the consulting business.You barely get time with your family. If you're gonna spend the one sunday doing community service, then you'll have a very unhappy family.But to schools it doesnt matter. you need to serve the community and thats a differentiating factor too.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 18:04
ashish.mahendra wrote:
But talk of quality of work and most of them sit on front of their computers and program all day. Their quality of work experience to my mind isnt too great. Afterall, the kind of leadership and business skills you can develop in those kind of jobs are limited.


There is something called "circumstances" my friend. Never disrespect people for what they do for a living, you don't know why they ended up doing what they are doing.

On a separate note, you are able to post here thanks to few sitting in front of their computers and programming.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 18:31
riverripper wrote:
I already have been accepted to Kellogg this year and my extracurriculars are non-existent. Kellogg is one school that has a reputation of putting a lot of emphasis on extras, so that illustrates it is possible..


I would like to take the opportunity to explain a major issue here. Your profile is 100 times better than most of the Indians in this forum.

The rants we here, I believe, are basically because there are a lot of people coming out of poverty from developing countries who made their way thru real hard work. They did the best possible in their circumstances, but that is actually less than average in a developed country like U.S. because now a days coming from those same places, e.g. India, is not percieved to be coming from a disadvantaged place, even though it was not the case before.

So here is a generation, lived through difficult circumstances, and what's happening now is that out of these, ones that were privileged enough are percieved as brightest. When we talk about Indians in top schools, many of them are not really "Indians". They are second genration of immigrants.

In short, it's diversity that can get you in, diversity of experience, diversity by demography, diversity by race, diversity by gender. If none exist , then you better be privileged enough to reach IB or PE before MBA.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 18:32
Spot on HBS............................
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 18:33
Great thread...I'm not pissed off (though I will be if I get dinged at all my R1 schools) but I'm frazzled. It's gotten to the point where I've realized that it's all relative. This has been touched on earlier; I know that most people, including myself, paint accomplishments/job duties etc. in the most positive light. i.e. Instead of saying that you were part of the team that created new product x, you can write I led the development of aspect abc of new product x that went on to do 123. But after talking with other applicants and alumni it's amazing how people are willing to completely exagerate accomplishments...That and the whole "we evaluate you on your accomplishments/holistic teaching environment" mantra is incredibly annoying. I agree with river, GMAT is not an absolute, you can get into a great school with a 600 but you better have done some truly amazing things. If you have a high 600 or mid to low 700 with fairly strong work ex. chances are a school will take you over someone with a 770 and ho-hum work ex. Maybe we all have to be used car salesmen, package your profile in the best way possible, use a bit of flattery and hope the customer buys what you're selling.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 18:40
ashish.mahendra wrote:
I do however am not a great believer in "Circumstances." Its you efforts , ability and motivation that drive you to do the work you do.

"Circumstances "cant dictate one's life. You work at least 8-10 hours a day.You cant let circumstances decide what you're gonna be doing for one-third of your life.

BTW, my "circumstances" at least financially don't permit me to pursue my dream of an international MBA. For an Indian, its investing more than a lifetime's earnings. But I'm still investing time and money in this dream.

What should ideally drive people is the passion and motivation, not "Circumstances". As long as you live in a democratic society and a free country, you can drive "circumstances" to your benefit, not let them define what you do..........................


I don't really have an answer to that, Ashish.
If you are in India, I am sure this place called "Control" is still in existence, where poor get in line for cheap government ration. Go talk to a child standing in line there. You will be shocked.

Last edited by hbs.aspirant on 04 Dec 2007, 18:46, edited 1 time in total.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 18:45
Come to think of it HBS, I can understand you.

Its just that I personally have always been a sort of a rebel so things and people haven't succeded in controlling me.

And I ended up marrying the only person who really can control me......

So yes, with my wife around, "circumstances" do determine what happens......

But I guess thats the story with most married men, isnt it??

:-)
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 19:01
cripes, you 08-ers are making us 07-ers regret our unmitigated ramblings. holy cow.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 19:20
Ashish- you sound exactly like my dad. When my wife and I told him that she got a job, he asked her if she would sit in front a computer the whole day? I would say most professions now involve sitting in front of a comp the whole day with a few meetings interspersed here and there.

I would have to say you can exhibit leadership and initiative in any job. It is upon the employee (and applicant) to reflect and highlight those that apply. Again, I am not sure all the s/w engineers out of India are working there because of circumstance but I would say it is also because of choice- maybe the pay is good, like the challenge (?) and what not...

So..I mean to say- you cannot generalize :)


hbs.aspirant wrote:
ashish.mahendra wrote:
But talk of quality of work and most of them sit on front of their computers and program all day. Their quality of work experience to my mind isnt too great. Afterall, the kind of leadership and business skills you can develop in those kind of jobs are limited.


There is something called "circumstances" my friend. Never disrespect people for what they do for a living, you don't know why they ended up doing what they are doing.

On a separate note, you are able to post here thanks to few sitting in front of their computers and programming.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 19:27
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Last edited by hbs.aspirant on 12 Jan 2008, 16:18, edited 1 time in total.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 19:35
I found this MBA

http://www.brixxpizza.com/MBA2.shtml

all of us can get in this.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 19:36
hbs.aspirant wrote:
People need to vent, Aau. they have tortured themselves thru so much and then what, Ding?
]


All I meant was that you all have bumped our long-buried rants. And suddenly we see posts we'd long forgotten about popping back up, and we think, oh, man, we were a wreck! Or maybe, I can't believe I said that!

It was meant in humor. Believe me, I sympathize with how rough this process is. I was thinking about it tonight, actually. This time last year I was in utter freak-out mode. I probably have more to do now, but I'm less stressed.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 20:13
Well...I think there are only certain schools that these high flying PE associates apply to- (the trinity). The rest of the schools dont seem to attract the high flyers nor do they seem to be biased towards. It is the same aura of exclusivity that drives the value of a HSW higher...sort of an italian sports car or something right?

But I truly believe that each of us will be a 'fit' in some school...might not be the highest ranked or the most popular on b-week, but one where you will have opportunities to 'level' the playing field between the high flying PE assoc and yourself ...
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 20:24
Asish, you answer your own question.

ashish.mahendra wrote:
Besides, how do I know that the person reading my resume and my essays really understands my business and my achievements............


Compare what you said here to your comment about s/w engineers who sit in front of computers all day and how they dont exhibit any leadership. You probably made the statement about indian s/w folks without really understanding that even in those so-called nerdy jobs, you need to exhibit leadership day in and day out. Even a s/w professional would have demonstrated leadership as long as he/she excelled at work. Think about this, in any crowded environment, unless you are outstanding you wouldn't be successful.

But no matter what, many people make an automatic assumption that an IT consultant doesnt have any leadership abilities. You made the same assumption. The primary reason for this is the lack of understanding of how the tech consulting business runs. When hbs_aspirant talks about how thousands of these leaders are forced to work in an undervalued profession due to circumstances, you countered by saying that it doesnt matter. Yet,you also offer the same defence saying that you hated the subject and professor when you studied and thats why you underperformed.


All this answers your original question resoundingly. That how great you are as an applicant is to a large extent based on the perception of the reader. He/she may not know zip or has incorrect assumptions about the nature of your work. If thats the case, your app, in avi's words, would be flushed down the drain.

My intention is not to disrespect you, but to highlight how ad-coms automatically make assumptions about an applicant, purely based on background.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 20:36
alright, i get you nc.

My rant was based on the fact that for overrepresented groups, applicants are at a significant disadvantage sometimes.

Anyhow, I do understand IT consulting since I was consulting for an year and a half. My perception is based on my experience, not a presumption.

My apologies to everyone who I may have offended.

Its probably the stress of the applications getting to me I guess.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 20:59
You've gotta be on prasad's good side. Else you just get ripped apart! :shock:

Very insightful post, prasad.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 21:34
I have deep respect for IT consulting folks. Reasons are below

1. clients look upon them as untouchables - I have never seen an IT consultant in a swank office. Always sitting on a tool beside the water cooler, hunching under the photocopy machine to find the extra power outlet.

2. Gets snubbed by every Tom, Dick, Harry who thinks they have some worthless spreadsheets that are invaluable to IT guys. You call the tom bastard for that info, he doesnt return ur call, pretends to act busy while digging his nose and flicking the booger into oblivion.

3. Has to kiss ass.. a lot of asses.. if a client says.. "umm we dont want any consulting services this year. the secretary needs a new diamond necklace else she is gonna spill the boss's affair to the wife". Project gets pulled off, IT consultants get bundled on the next cargo plane out to Omaha, Idaho, Timbucktoo and some project, where you have to dust off key boards...so to prevent that occurence.. try to please one and all..

4. Always assumed by client that IT consultants are computer gurus.. hell the biggest computer guru is sitting in Seattle on a 4 billion dollar bed.. go to him for advice, not us..we came to fix a problem about ur ERP system, not format your hard drive and make sure that the mouse ball is not acting funny

In my opinion, auditors and IT consultants are the lowest on the food chain.. All the people we service are called "clients", we stay in hotel rooms that even a self respecting hooker wont touch, the red-eye flights are in business because of us....

so before a job is all about sitting in front of computers and swatting flies, think again... :lol:

no disrespect to anyone... and no job is worthless.. We learn valuable from everything.. besides, I think I would have a better chance getting into H/S/W if I was a milkman than some fancy internal auditor...

lots of community service, a very different job, and possibly the biologicial father of many unknowing kids in the suburbs..
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 21:36
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 21:48
I don't know about bschool but at work and at my undergrad people from Canada weren't really considered to be "international students". They did fall under that category but in all honesty they were regarded as US apps.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 21:53
shmegs wrote:
I don't know about bschool but at work and at my undergrad people from Canada weren't really considered to be "international students". They did fall under that category but in all honesty they were regarded as US apps.


Same at my work place too. I was only pointing to fact that we are not overrepresented, unless there is an undeclared quota for countries. If the admission process is blind of race and country, I bet there will be way more Indians admitted than are admitted now.
  [#permalink] 04 Dec 2007, 21:53
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