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Bad Attitude

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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 22:00
I agree, but unfortunately, fortuately for some, that isn't the case. There are a ton more Indians in bschool today and at places like Dardent the number has risen to 40-50 from 3-5 a decade ago. That represents a huge chunk out of the overall student body. At the same time I am in favour of schools maintaining a diverse student body. If that means quotas so be it, it's not good to have a student body with 90+% US students nor is it good to have 30-40% from a particular international country. It's not fair, but I believe it does provide the best atmosphere. That being said the number of Indian students is only going to increase but it will remain uber competitive as the number of applicants from India is skyrocketing.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 22:41
hbs.aspirant wrote:
When we talk about Indians in top schools, many of them are not really "Indians". They are second genration of immigrants.
I would disagree with that. At least in terms of statistics, students only count as Indians if they hold an Indian passport. If they were to add 2nd generation Indians, the % would more than double.

L.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 22:48
hbs.aspirant wrote:
India has 17% of world's population, and Canada 0.5%. yet they are represented equally at HBS.


Can you ellaborate? Why do you think global population proportions should be mirrored in class compositions? Why not GDP or other metrics? And in either case, why not more Chinese than Indians?

L.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 22:54
lepium wrote:
hbs.aspirant wrote:
India has 17% of world's population, and Canada 0.5%. yet they are represented equally at HBS.


Can you ellaborate? Why do you think global population proportions should be mirrored in class compositions? Why not GDP or other metrics? And in either case, why not more Chinese than Indians?

L.


I was just questioning the meaning of "Over representation by Indians".
Why is it considered that indians are over represented?
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 22:57
lepium wrote:
hbs.aspirant wrote:
India has 17% of world's population, and Canada 0.5%. yet they are represented equally at HBS.


Why do you think global population proportions should be mirrored in class compositions?

L.


Read between the lines, I don't. I said if school is blind of race and country, more Indians will get in.
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Re: Bad Attitude [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 22:59
johnnyx9 wrote:
By the end of the whole application process I was pretty tired of it
all. Did anybody else get tired of second-guessing everything? There
are some hypocritical elements of the "ad-com" stance. Montauk's book
has quotes from ad-coms where they talk about what they look for, and
there are a lot of conflicting things that drove me nuts. For instance
things like (making these up) :

"A lot of people get caught in the trap of telling us what they think
we want to hear, we just want essays that show a person's personality,
they shouldn't be concerned about what they think we want to hear," -
Jackass Ad-com #1

"When we read essays, we want very specific examples of why you want
to do XYZ. We expect applicants to have a crystal clear vision of why
they need an MBA, what companies they might work for, what specific
classes they're interested in," Jackass Ad-com #2

"Some essays people mention specific companies they want to work for
and positions they want. This is silly because we know many people
want to change industries, and that level of detail seems silly, so we
really just look for people with a good sense of their own strengths
and weaknesses," Jackass Ad-com #3

"Don't just give us a bunch of examples of why you're a great leader,
tell us why," Jackass Ad-com #4

"Show, don't tell," Jackass Ad-com #5

It all gets aggravating after a while, all the contradictions. There
were some discussions here (or was it on BW) where people were arguing
over Stern essay #1 that asks "Why an MBA?" Some people said that the
question necessarily implies "Why Stern?" while other people said,
"Read the question, they don't ask about Stern in that essay so don't
address that, ad-coms want to know that you can follow the
directions."

At the end of the day I kind of have this bad attitude, like F all of
that stuff, here's my application, if you don't like the fact that I
didn't mention specific classes then F off. Or if you don't like that I DID mention specific classes, F off. And if you think my career vision is too
specific, F off. If you think it's too vague then F off. How do you
like me now?


thank you for this post. In all honesty, thank you. I'm feeling this acutely right now and its very, very hard. I'm almost hoping I don't get in anywhere.

I'm really glad that even if its just the two of us feeling like this, I'm not alone.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 23:03
lepium wrote:
hbs.aspirant wrote:
When we talk about Indians in top schools, many of them are not really "Indians". They are second genration of immigrants.
I would disagree with that. At least in terms of statistics, students only count as Indians if they hold an Indian passport. If they were to add 2nd generation Indians, the % would more than double.

L.


From the news few days back

Out of the 900 students who joined this year and will graduate in 2009, 38 students are from India or of Indian origin.

Indian origin applies to people with parents or grand parents born in India. Indian passport is not the requirement for Indian origin.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 23:06
zakk, make that three of us. I specially liked the "How do you like me now?" part :lol:

Last edited by mNeo on 04 Dec 2007, 23:10, edited 1 time in total.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 23:08
hbs.aspirant wrote:
lepium wrote:
hbs.aspirant wrote:
India has 17% of world's population, and Canada 0.5%. yet they are represented equally at HBS.


Can you ellaborate? Why do you think global population proportions should be mirrored in class compositions? Why not GDP or other metrics? And in either case, why not more Chinese than Indians?

L.


I was just questioning the meaning of "Over representation by Indians".
Why is it considered that indians are over represented?


The normal perception is that they are overrepresented at the applicant level, not at the admitted students level. This perception, however, is not based on solid data as schools don't provide the breakdown. If I'm correct GMAT takers and/or forums activity levels are used as proxies to measure applicant mix.

L.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 23:17
hbs.aspirant wrote:
lepium wrote:
hbs.aspirant wrote:
India has 17% of world's population, and Canada 0.5%. yet they are represented equally at HBS.


Why do you think global population proportions should be mirrored in class compositions?

L.


Read between the lines, I don't. I said if school is blind of race and country, more Indians will get in.


While I get the point you made on your 2nd post, I still don't see how how overall country population is related to anything.

You could just mention quantity of applicants vs quantity of admitted students for each country and then I could actually "read between the lines". The problem is that you don't have those numbers because nobody publishes them, so you need an estimation. But overall population? That's a really far-fetched proxy for applicant numbers, IMHO. I mean, how can you honestly know that more Indians than Canadians apply to a specific school? And even if you knew, how would you know what their quality* distributions look like? I think that even when the conclusions might be right the logic is flawed.

Thanks. L.
*assuming quality could be estimated as a single number assigned to the overall holistic evaluation of applicants.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 23:28
wow, I actually did read this thread a while ago, which is where I found the gem that Rhyme and pelihu put out on the statistics of Kellogg (now in the 2008 Pants Pooping links somewhere) versus GMAT scores.

Very interesting how the sentiments and feelings are the same, a year later. I too think the whole process is pretty random, but I'm not bitter, yet. I'll wait until end of January to be bitter (when I get rejected from every school).
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2007, 23:41
L,
I am not the starting point for this debate. I was defending against the "Over representation" fact.

That is becoming the reason to get in only the star profile.

Because India is not one, and it's not in many parts as people say. It's just 2 parts. Privileged and not privileged.

So out of that pool, if you keep the selctivity tight based on more number of applicants, only the star profiles get in. You be the judge of this for me. Prove me wrong by telling me about a HBS student, who is a poor farmer's son from India and only engineering graduate in his whole village.

For example, follow this profile:

A son from a family living on welfare in Alabama, minority, 3.0 GPA, 750 GMAT, software engineer. A brother in family with cancer.
Doesn't it look like a profile a consultant can turn into a star story? Result? Admit to one of H/W/S.

Same story minus Alabama plus India minus welfare plus poverty. Result? you know better than me.
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 [#permalink] New post 05 Dec 2007, 07:55
Definitely not underestimating the number of military applicants. Officers are leaving the service in droves. Plus, most of them are going to have one or more tours to iraq to draw war stories from.

The military is also just a wierd place. i've gone from general management to logistics to secretary work. I'm supposed to be flying a helicopter! They randomly throw people in positions. it's wild. you wouldn't expect your boss to walk up to you tomorrow and ask if you could go head up HR for a year or so before wandering off to do supply stuff at the back warehouse.

But yeah, I wasn't saying military makes it easier. Just using it as an example of a target group. I personally am hoping for a deep recession so that people will be less inclined to apply... :-D
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 [#permalink] New post 05 Dec 2007, 07:57
The issue of Indian applicants and the quality of applications is not being seen in the correct context. I believe degree of success is a relative measurement.

I for one had not heard of engineering until i was in 11th grade, hadn't heard of MBA until i was in college and had not heard of many of the top 10 B-Schools until couple years ago. why? not because i let circumstances drive me as someone suggested in one of the posts, but because i do not have role models to look up and follow. Today the situation is quite different and people are more aware. but if i were to recount my experience, about 15 years ago, government was the major employer and everyone was studying to get a job as a clerk with the government or with one of the several banks which were again owned by government. You cant dream about something you have never seen and so with abysmally low levels of knowledge about other career opportunities, people like me had no idea that they could be entrepreneur or business leaders. when you are competing for only 400 seats in a state that has more than 80 million people and succeed in getting through, i would say that is a great success for someone who had limited information and resources. To the outside world the number of software professionals of indian origin might seem huge, but seen in the correct context it still represents less than 1% of the workforce and was a coveted job until couple years ago. Someone who got into such a job, has worked across several countries but has a family that has not set their foot outside their village, i think it is a great success for them.

So my point is there is a huge number of Indian applicants because of the timing. a whole generation has risen from grime and dust through hard work and competition and is ready to lead a country of over a billion people. I am sure 15 years ago or 15 years hence, this number will go down. its a factor of demographic distribution and age of the work force.

and just to give an example to contrast the backgrounds for people from developed countries vs developing countries, no one in my whole extended family of about 100 has heard of Harvard or MBA which i am sure would be true for many applicants from the third world. It is a truth that Indian guys do not sell themselves well and that is because they do not have the kind of help many others have. e.x most of the people i met in info sessions had buddies in H/S/W and some even knew student AdCom reps. If they don't put a great application who will ? certainly not the dude from Rwanda who came to US in search of job but now is dreaming big.
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 [#permalink] New post 05 Dec 2007, 08:02
mr_gondola wrote:
Definitely not underestimating the number of military applicants. Officers are leaving the service in droves. Plus, most of them are going to have one or more tours to iraq to draw war stories from.

The military is also just a wierd place. i've gone from general management to logistics to secretary work. I'm supposed to be flying a helicopter! They randomly throw people in positions. it's wild. you wouldn't expect your boss to walk up to you tomorrow and ask if you could go head up HR for a year or so before wandering off to do supply stuff at the back warehouse.

But yeah, I wasn't saying military makes it easier. Just using it as an example of a target group. I personally am hoping for a deep recession so that people will be less inclined to apply... :-D


Recessions increase applications a lot of times, its a good time to take a two year break from a crappy economy and hopefully catch the rising tide on the other side.

Your story reminds me of a college buddy, he was a helicopter pilot and now is an assistant for some big shot admiral. He said its actually is a great position to be in though, you interact daily with a bunch of big wigs and they can really champion your career. Trust me a recommendation from a two start general or admiral who you personally work with daily is going to have a lot more weight than other folks. Your work may not be impressive to you but if you frame it right it definitely can come across that way.
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 [#permalink] New post 05 Dec 2007, 08:10
Yeah, unfortunately my boss doesn't have a start just yet. That would be ideal if I have to work as a secretary or "aide" at all. I'm sure I can spin it, it's just wierd to get odd jobs that I don't have control over. I had a few other paths i'd have preferred that would write better on a resume.

Yeh, the general aides get hooked up, but I think by and large it is only if you stay military or government. You go private sector and some random two star is probably not going to get you a job at McKinsey or Goldman.
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 [#permalink] New post 05 Dec 2007, 09:04
kryzak wrote:
wow, I actually did read this thread a while ago, which is where I found the gem that Rhyme and pelihu put out on the statistics of Kellogg (now in the 2008 Pants Pooping links somewhere) versus GMAT scores.

Very interesting how the sentiments and feelings are the same, a year later. I too think the whole process is pretty random, but I'm not bitter, yet. I'll wait until end of January to be bitter (when I get rejected from every school).


pfffft. I can't wait for your "I got accepted to every school, how do I make a choice" thread.

:-D
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 [#permalink] New post 05 Dec 2007, 09:08
So is this group under the opinion that if one gets a 750 and can put halfway decent essays together, he/she is better off than a 680 with good essays?
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 [#permalink] New post 05 Dec 2007, 09:13
Hmmm...this thread is helping to confirm some of my concerns ('09 applicant). Not sure what to do. :cry:
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 [#permalink] New post 05 Dec 2007, 09:42
ryguy904 wrote:
So is this group under the opinion that if one gets a 750 and can put halfway decent essays together, he/she is better off than a 680 with good essays?


I would rather be a 710 with stellar esssay. Below average anything means you need to be strong in all other areas. Weak undergrad means stronger work experience. Weak work means very strong extras. Weak GPA means strong GMAT.

However, you want the best essays you can get. The better the essays the better your chances. Good essays will work for super star applicants. But if you arent a McKinsey consultant or a banker at Goldman or an IT guy at Google...you are going to need to set yourself apart from the pack and the best way to do that is great essays and recs.
  [#permalink] 05 Dec 2007, 09:42
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