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Between 2000 and 2010, the $10.7 billion ski and

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Re: A Fresh 700 Level SC Question [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2013, 11:09
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Hey Shraddha,

I could pick up the the //m error in A but I thought that E has some what more erroneous modifier placement which (I felt) didn't state the intended meaning clearly
so went with the best available option ie A

Moreover, please refer to this sentence in the Sydney Morning Herald's environment section
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/clima ... 2bayh.html

Between 2000 and 2010, the report said, the $10.7 billion ski and snowboarding industry, with centers in 38 states and which employs 187,000 people directly or indirectly, lost $1.07 billion in revenue when comparing each state's best snowfall years with its worst snowfall years


E>A grammatically but not sure about the meaning aspect.
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Re: A Fresh 700 Level SC Question [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2013, 11:14
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Thanks for this man.
About the issue
I think that this sentence for example
A math book with diagrammatic representations and which explains all the concepts lucidly is a good math text book.
I somehow would incline to agree that this sentence is parallel.
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Re: A Fresh 700 Level SC Question [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2013, 11:22
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souvik101990 wrote:
Thanks for this man.
About the issue
I think that this sentence for example
A math book with diagrammatic representations and which explains all the concepts lucidly is a good math text book.
I somehow would incline to agree that this sentence is parallel.


hey Sovik

I guess so. BUT GMAT has this 'my land my rules' policy so you never know about this

I'm curious about this ''and+which" construction wrt //m and meaning. Lets see when other people weigh in on this.

btw kudos is same as thanks rite? ;)
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Re: A Fresh 700 Level SC Question [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2013, 11:24
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bluemints wrote:
souvik101990 wrote:
Thanks for this man.
About the issue
I think that this sentence for example
A math book with diagrammatic representations and which explains all the concepts lucidly is a good math text book.
I somehow would incline to agree that this sentence is parallel.


hey Sovik

I guess so. BUT GMAT has this 'my land my rules' policy so you never know about this

I'm curious about this ''and+which" construction wrt //m and meaning. Lets see when other people weigh in on this.

btw kudos is same as thanks rite? ;)

Now you got 2 of them :-D
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Re: A Fresh 700 Level SC Question [#permalink] New post 17 Jan 2013, 09:44
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bluemints wrote:
Hey Shraddha,

Moreover, please refer to this sentence in the Sydney Morning Herald's environment section
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/clima ... 2bayh.html

Between 2000 and 2010, the report said, the $10.7 billion ski and snowboarding industry, with centers in 38 states and which employs 187,000 people directly or indirectly, lost $1.07 billion in revenue when comparing each state's best snowfall years with its worst snowfall years


E>A grammatically but not sure about the meaning aspect.


Since discussion on this question is happening concurrently on BTG as well, I am posting Payal's response on BTG over here so that GMAT Clubbers can benefit from it.

This construction is not correct. We cannot have a phrase parallel to a clause. In fact there are multiple ways of making this list parallel, such as:

1: Ski and snowboarding industry, with centers in 38 states and employing 187,000 people (Here both entities are phrases)
2: Ski and snowboarding industry, which has centers in 38 states and employs 187,000 people (Here both entities are clauses)

Just an interesting side note – This sentence also appears in nytimes here. In fact both publications have the same article. It was published just a day before the article on Sydney Morning Herald was published. Not sure if there is a tie up between these two publications. But regardless of that - carefully notice the list in the nytimes article. It uses the correct parallel construction per option 1 above.

Again, it is possible that this was just a publishing error or an error that did not get caught through the editorial process. Happens, after all “To err is Human”
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Re: A Fresh 700 Level SC Question [#permalink] New post 17 Jan 2013, 09:46
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dentobizz wrote:
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@dentobizz - you could figure out the parallelism error in choice A but you still marked choice A as the correct answer since you felt that the construction of choice E was not correct. I hope my explanation above helps you clarify that doubt.

Hi Shraddha,
Thanks for posting both challenging questions and the explanations
But I still feel that Placement of 'between 2000 to 2010' after 'lost' makes the meaning ambiguous. LOST b/w 2000-2010 dollars?? people?? no quantifier is mentioned

if it were 'between the year 2000 to 2010' then it would have been clear.

That why I didn't choose E since I didn't feel it was the best option

Do we choose E just because the other 4 options are grammatically inaccurate?

Thanks

{Since discussion on this question is happening concurrently on BTG as well, I am posting Payal's response on BTG over here so that GMAT Clubbers can benefit from it.}

When we read the original sentence, we infer or understand the intended meaning of the sentence. We make sure that we understand the function or role played by every entity in the sentence. So in this case, when we read Choice A, we know that "Between 2000 and 2010" refers to the year "2000 and 2010". It is understood from the context of the sentence. So yes - by explicitly stating the noun "year" before 2000 and 2010 will make things absolutely clear.
But the way this phrase has been used in choice A, there is no ambiguity about the fact that we are talking about years 2000 and 2010, or the time between these two years.

In fact, you will find several references in OG in which whenever a certain year is specified, it is not preceded by the word "year". Let's take a couple here:

OG13 Question 77 - Choice A (Incorrect)
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

In this sentence, concentrate on the non-underlined portion "A 1972 agreement". Even though the sentence does not explicitly state "An agreement written in 1972" or "An agreement written in the year 1972", the logical interpretation is that 1972 agreement implies that this agreement was written in the year 1972.

Here is another one:
OG13 Question 9 - Choice C (Incorrect)
In 1979 lack of rain reduced India's rice production to about 41 million tons, nearly 25 percent less than those of the 1978 harvest.

(A) less than those of the 1978 harvest

(B) less than the 1978 harvest

(C) less than 1978

(D) fewer than 1978

(E) fewer than that of India's 1978 harvest


In this sentence it is absolutely clear that 1979 and 1978 are the years. But for a moment, let’s apply your logic on the correct sentence here - choice B. The 1978 harvest could imply “the 1978 million tons harvest”. i.e. 1978 could actually present the quantity of harvest (yes the Math will not add up here!!). But see that that would not be the most logical interpretation.

These official references should clarify the logical interpretation of the "2000” & “2010" in your mind. So basically follow your logical thinking. I think you may have been overthinking this aspect.

Now let’s come back to the question in discussion. So now that you have analyzed the original sentence and you know that "between 2000 and 2010" describes the time frame of the verb "lost", you review the remaining choices and make sure that the placement of this modifier does not result in any illogical meaning. i.e. between 2000 and 2010 should not provide timing of anything else except the intended modified entity "lost". Notice that the key thing here is that the function of this phrase is to present timing. Its function will not change to presenting some other quantity just because now it is placed at a different location.

Take Away – Follow your logical thought process!
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Re: A Fresh 700 Level SC Question [#permalink] New post 17 Jan 2013, 10:04
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souvik101990 wrote:
A math book with diagrammatic representations and which explains all the concepts lucidly is a good math text book.
I somehow would incline to agree that this sentence is parallel.


Good discussion souvik101990!

The above construction is not considered correct in written English. A phrase cannot be made parallel to a clause. Let's consider a few official questions to understand this point:

OG13 Question # 46

In ancient Thailand, much of the local artisans’ creative energy was expended for the creation of Buddha images and when they constructed and decorated the temples that enshrined them.

For the sake of this discussion, we will only focus on the parallelism aspect of this sentence. The list is as follows:
Creative energy was expended
1: for the creation of Buddha images
2: when they constructed and decorated the temples that enshrined them

The list above presents the tasks on which the creative energy was expended. Clearly the list is not parallel since phrase has been made parallel to clause. In fact the Official Explanation clearly states " clause introduces faulty parallelism".

OG13 Question # 13
There are several ways to build solid walls using just mud or clay, but the most extensively used method has been the forming of bricks out of mud or clay, and, after some preliminary air drying or sun drying, they are laid in the wall in mud mortar.

Once again, we will only focus on the parallelism aspect of this incorrect choice. And without going into too many details here, I will quote official explanation here "the active gerund phrase the forming of bricks does not fit with the passive verb phrase that follows (they are are laid)"

So essentially you cannot make a phrase parallel to a clause. I hope this addresses your confusion.

Regards,
Shraddha
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Re: A Fresh 700 Level SC Question [#permalink] New post 17 Jan 2013, 11:45
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Hi Shraddha ,

Payal responded to my doubts on BTG and Got them cleared. Thanks a lot to both of you for for your quick response and explanation :-D

BTG discussion link for other's reference http://www.beatthegmat.com/a-fresh-700- ... tml#555657
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Re: A Fresh 700 Level SC Question [#permalink] New post 17 Jan 2013, 11:48
egmat wrote:
bluemints wrote:
Hey Shraddha,

Moreover, please refer to this sentence in the Sydney Morning Herald's environment section
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/clima ... 2bayh.html

Between 2000 and 2010, the report said, the $10.7 billion ski and snowboarding industry, with centers in 38 states and which employs 187,000 people directly or indirectly, lost $1.07 billion in revenue when comparing each state's best snowfall years with its worst snowfall years


E>A grammatically but not sure about the meaning aspect.


Since discussion on this question is happening concurrently on BTG as well, I am posting Payal's response on BTG over here so that GMAT Clubbers can benefit from it.

This construction is not correct. We cannot have a phrase parallel to a clause. In fact there are multiple ways of making this list parallel, such as:

1: Ski and snowboarding industry, with centers in 38 states and employing 187,000 people (Here both entities are phrases)
2: Ski and snowboarding industry, which has centers in 38 states and employs 187,000 people (Here both entities are clauses)

Just an interesting side note –This sentence also appears in nytimes here. In fact both publications have the same article. It was published just a day before the article on Sydney Morning Herald was published. Not sure if there is a tie up between these two publications. But regardless of that - carefully notice the list in the nytimes article. It uses the correct parallel construction per option 1 above.

Again, it is possible that this was just a publishing error or an error that did not get caught through the editorial process. Happens, after all “To err is Human” :)



Agree it does look like a publishing/editing error
here's the article http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/us/cl ... wanted=all

Thnks
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Re: A Fresh 700 Level SC Question [#permalink] New post 17 Jan 2013, 17:33
bluemints wrote:
Hey Shraddha,

I could pick up the the //m error in A but I thought that E has some what more erroneous modifier placement which (I felt) didn't state the intended meaning clearly
so went with the best available option ie A

Moreover, please refer to this sentence in the Sydney Morning Herald's environment section
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/clima ... 2bayh.html

Between 2000 and 2010, the report said, the $10.7 billion ski and snowboarding industry, with centers in 38 states and which employs 187,000 people directly or indirectly, lost $1.07 billion in revenue when comparing each state's best snowfall years with its worst snowfall years


E>A grammatically but not sure about the meaning aspect.



Thank you Sharadha and Payal for ending the suspense over this one.Kudos for the explanation
Surprising typo/ printing mistake by the Sydney Morning Herald guy's.

@dentobizz -good questions & discussion on the other forum and I am posting the nyt article link below that you gave there regarding parallelism (Hope you don't mind) .The article is pretty informative, nice find doc :-D

an article that discusses similar parallelism errors including this one
http://afterdeadline.blogs.nytimes.com/ ... roblems-2/
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Re: A Fresh 700 Level SC Question [#permalink] New post 18 Jan 2013, 18:31
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bluemints wrote:

@dentobizz -good questions & discussion on the other forum and I am posting the nyt article link below that you gave there regarding parallelism (Hope you don't mind) .The article is pretty informative, nice find doc :-D

an article that discusses similar parallelism errors including this one
http://afterdeadline.blogs.nytimes.com/ ... roblems-2/


Oh no! I am terribly upset because you posted the link ...

lol :P ......j/k Happy you shared it here , its always good to share info
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Re: A Fresh 700 Level SC Question [#permalink] New post 18 Jan 2013, 21:40
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egmat wrote:
souvik101990 wrote:
A math book with diagrammatic representations and which explains all the concepts lucidly is a good math text book.
I somehow would incline to agree that this sentence is parallel.


Good discussion souvik101990!

The above construction is not considered correct in written English. A phrase cannot be made parallel to a clause. Let's consider a few official questions to understand this point:

OG13 Question # 46

In ancient Thailand, much of the local artisans’ creative energy was expended for the creation of Buddha images and when they constructed and decorated the temples that enshrined them.

For the sake of this discussion, we will only focus on the parallelism aspect of this sentence. The list is as follows:
Creative energy was expended
1: for the creation of Buddha images
2: when they constructed and decorated the temples that enshrined them

The list above presents the tasks on which the creative energy was expended. Clearly the list is not parallel since phrase has been made parallel to clause. In fact the Official Explanation clearly states " clause introduces faulty parallelism".

OG13 Question # 13
There are several ways to build solid walls using just mud or clay, but the most extensively used method has been the forming of bricks out of mud or clay, and, after some preliminary air drying or sun drying, they are laid in the wall in mud mortar.

Once again, we will only focus on the parallelism aspect of this incorrect choice. And without going into too many details here, I will quote official explanation here "the active gerund phrase the forming of bricks does not fit with the passive verb phrase that follows (they are are laid)"

So essentially you cannot make a phrase parallel to a clause. I hope this addresses your confusion.

Regards,
Shraddha


Probably one of the best discussions I had on this forum :-)
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Re: A Fresh 700 Level SC Question [#permalink] New post 22 Jan 2013, 20:37
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You are most welcome Souvik. We owe this to the quality of participation that we have on this forum. We will be posting more questions this weekend. Also check out the fresh questions that we have posted on CR
two-critical-reasoning-questions-hot-and-fresh-from-e-gmat-146133.html.

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Re: A Fresh 700 Level SC Question [#permalink] New post 26 Jan 2013, 07:06
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egmat wrote:
souvik101990 wrote:
A math book with diagrammatic representations and which explains all the concepts lucidly is a good math text book.
I somehow would incline to agree that this sentence is parallel.


Good discussion souvik101990!

The above construction is not considered correct in written English. A phrase cannot be made parallel to a clause. Let's consider a few official questions to understand this point:

OG13 Question # 46

In ancient Thailand, much of the local artisans’ creative energy was expended for the creation of Buddha images and when they constructed and decorated the temples that enshrined them.

For the sake of this discussion, we will only focus on the parallelism aspect of this sentence. The list is as follows:
Creative energy was expended
1: for the creation of Buddha images
2: when they constructed and decorated the temples that enshrined them

The list above presents the tasks on which the creative energy was expended. Clearly the list is not parallel since phrase has been made parallel to clause. In fact the Official Explanation clearly states " clause introduces faulty parallelism".

OG13 Question # 13
There are several ways to build solid walls using just mud or clay, but the most extensively used method has been the forming of bricks out of mud or clay, and, after some preliminary air drying or sun drying, they are laid in the wall in mud mortar.

Once again, we will only focus on the parallelism aspect of this incorrect choice. And without going into too many details here, I will quote official explanation here "the active gerund phrase the forming of bricks does not fit with the passive verb phrase that follows (they are are laid)"

So essentially you cannot make a phrase parallel to a clause. I hope this addresses your confusion.

Regards,
Shraddha



Hi Shraddha,
For OG13 Question # 13 : Option D is correct definitely from parallelism aspect.

But,I'm bit confused as far as the meaning of the sentence is concerned.
I think bricks are formed from mud or clay but 'to form mud or clay into bricks' as mentioned in option D,don't you think it's illogical ? We convert mud or clay into bricks but don't form them into bricks I believe.So can you please shed some light on this.

Appreciate your comments.
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Re: Between 2000 and 2010, the $10.7 billion ski and [#permalink] New post 11 Sep 2013, 08:31
thank you e gmat expert.

it is great that we focus on meaning because gmat test the logic.

Hoever, I have problem understanding the meaning when reading only the original choice.

understanding the intended meaning when reading only the original sentence is a painfull process. Do you have any skill for this step?

one question more.

there are some sc problems all of which is underlined and which contain many new words. this shows the misplaced modifers problem will be tested. However, there are many new words and this make it hard to understand the meaning. finally, we can not realize which modifier should modifies which entities. do you have any skill for this situation? thank you
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Re: Between 2000 and 2010, the $10.7 billion ski and [#permalink] New post 11 Sep 2013, 10:53
E because

The $10.7 billion ski and snowboarding industry, which has centers in 38 states and employs 187,000 people directly or indirectly, lost, between 2000 and 2010,20 dollars.

read simply as : Industry x lost 20 dollars (rest all is fluff)
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Re: Between 2000 and 2010, the $10.7 billion ski and   [#permalink] 11 Sep 2013, 10:53
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