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Can verb-ed modifier be without a comma ?

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Can verb-ed modifier be without a comma ? [#permalink] New post 02 Aug 2013, 07:56
Sentence: The space ship, designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years, cannot be made with poor quality materials.

Can we say as below? ( I understand that if we remove the comma, we change the meaning as the sentence refers to a specific space ship)

The space ship designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years cannot be made with poor quality materials.

What is the difference if we introduce "that"? - The space ship that is designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation...


Could someone apply the same to the below "verb-ed" modifier?

Rivaling the pyramids of Egypt or even the ancient cities of the Maya as an achievement, the army of terra-cotta warriors created to protect Qin Shi Huang, China's first emperor, in his afterlife is more than 2,000 years old and took 700,000 artisans more than 36 years to complete.

My question is shouldn't the sentence be - " the army of terra-cotta warriors that was created to protect..."?
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Re: Can verb-ed modifier be without a comma ? [#permalink] New post 02 Aug 2013, 08:16
gmatter0913 wrote:
Sentence 1: The space ship, designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years, cannot be made with poor quality materials.

Can we say as below? ( I understand that if we remove the comma, we change the meaning as the sentence refers to a specific space ship)

The space ship designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years cannot be made with poor quality materials.

What is the difference if we introduce "that"? - The space ship that is designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation...


Could someone apply the same to the below "verb-ed" modifier?

Rivaling the pyramids of Egypt or even the ancient cities of the Maya as an achievement, the army of terra-cotta warriors created to protect Qin Shi Huang, China's first emperor, in his afterlife is more than 2,000 years old and took 700,000 artisans more than 36 years to complete.

My question is shouldn't the sentence be - " the army of terra-cotta warriors that is created to protect..."?


hi,

IMO

The space ship ,designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years, cannot be made with poor quality materials.
putting between the commas makes it a non essential modifier....WHICH IS SAME AS :

The space ship ,WHICH IS designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years, cannot be made with poor quality materials.

NOW:
The space ship designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years cannot be made with poor quality materials.
NOW IN THIS CASE IT IS ESSENTIAL MODFIER WHICH IS SAME AS;
The space ship THAT IS designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years cannot be made with poor quality materials.


but in all the cases it is modifying the closest noun space ship.(which is the property of verb-ed modifier).

so in your question:
the army of terra-cotta warriors that is created to protect.===>i dont think that this changes the meaning...

VERB-ED MODIFIIERS :Always modify preceding noun or noun phrase.
PLEASE REFER THIS:
verb-ed-modifiers-vs-verb-ing-modifiers-125611.html

hope it helps
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Last edited by blueseas on 07 Aug 2013, 03:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can verb-ed modifier be without a comma ? [#permalink] New post 07 Aug 2013, 02:08
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blueseas wrote:
gmatter0913 wrote:
Sentence 1: The space ship, designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years, cannot be made with poor quality materials.

Can we say as below? ( I understand that if we remove the comma, we change the meaning as the sentence refers to a specific space ship)

The space ship designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years cannot be made with poor quality materials.

What is the difference if we introduce "that"? - The space ship that is designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation...


Could someone apply the same to the below "verb-ed" modifier?

Rivaling the pyramids of Egypt or even the ancient cities of the Maya as an achievement, the army of terra-cotta warriors created to protect Qin Shi Huang, China's first emperor, in his afterlife is more than 2,000 years old and took 700,000 artisans more than 36 years to complete.

My question is shouldn't the sentence be - " the army of terra-cotta warriors that is created to protect..."?


hi,

IMO

The space ship ,designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years, cannot be made with poor quality materials.
putting between the commas makes it a non essential modifier....WHICH IS SAME AS :

The space ship ,WHICH IS designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years, cannot be made with poor quality materials.

NOW:
The space ship designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years cannot be made with poor quality materials.
NOW IN THIS CASE IT IS ESSENTIAL MODFIER WHICH IS SAME AS;
The space ship THAT IS designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years cannot be made with poor quality materials.


but in all the cases it is modifying the closest noun space ship.(which is the property of verb-ed modifier).

so in your question:
the army of terra-cotta warriors that is created to protect.===>i dont think that this changes the meaning...


VERB-ED modifiers always modify the closest noun...with or without comma.


hope it helps


I believe this part is erroneous.

Usually, if the structure is : Comma + Verb-ed, then the modifier generally modifies the subject of the clause, not the closest noun.

If the structure is without a comma, then verb-ed modifier will modify the closest noun.
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Re: Can verb-ed modifier be without a comma ? [#permalink] New post 07 Aug 2013, 02:19
mau5 wrote:

I believe this part is erroneous.

Usually, if the structure is : Comma + Verb-ed, then the modifier generally modifies the subject of the clause, not the closest noun.

If the structure is without a comma, then verb-ed modifier will modify the closest noun.


hi mau,

comma +verb-ed ==>modifies the preceding NOUN or NOUN PHRASE only and not the subject of the preceeding clause.

please refer to article bty e-gmat:
http://gmatclub.com/forum/verb-ed-modifiers-vs-verb-ing-modifiers-125611.html

thanks
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Re: Can verb-ed modifier be without a comma ? [#permalink] New post 07 Aug 2013, 02:23
Expert's post
blueseas wrote:
mau5 wrote:

I believe this part is erroneous.

Usually, if the structure is : Comma + Verb-ed, then the modifier generally modifies the subject of the clause, not the closest noun.

If the structure is without a comma, then verb-ed modifier will modify the closest noun.


hi mau,

comma +verb-ed ==>modifies the preceding NOUN or NOUN PHRASE only and not the subject of the preceeding clause.

please refer to article bty e-gmat:
http://gmatclub.com/forum/verb-ed-modifiers-vs-verb-ing-modifiers-125611.html

thanks


http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/on- ... 33-30.html

Read the post by Ron, 5th from bottom.
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Re: Can verb-ed modifier be without a comma ? [#permalink] New post 07 Aug 2013, 02:50
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mau5 wrote:
blueseas wrote:
mau5 wrote:

I believe this part is erroneous.

Usually, if the structure is : Comma + Verb-ed, then the modifier generally modifies the subject of the clause, not the closest noun.

If the structure is without a comma, then verb-ed modifier will modify the closest noun.


hi mau,

comma +verb-ed ==>modifies the preceding NOUN or NOUN PHRASE only and not the subject of the preceeding clause.

please refer to article bty e-gmat:
http://gmatclub.com/forum/verb-ed-modifiers-vs-verb-ing-modifiers-125611.html

thanks


http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/on- ... 33-30.html

Read the post by Ron, 5th from bottom.


hi mau,
please refer this.
below was the reply given by e-gmat
verb-ed-modifiers-vs-verb-ing-modifiers-125611.html#p1113449
Hi there,

Thanks for liking the article. I’m glad to know that it has been useful for you. Now let’s get to your question.

My sister finally quit her job, discouraged by the long hours and low pay.

Yes, you are correct in saying that the verb-ed modifier can modify either the immediate preceding noun or the immediate preceding noun phrase. A verb-ed modifier cannot jump over a verb to modify a noun in the subject place. The entity that a verb-ed modifier modifies has to precede it.

Also, if you read this sentence properly, it seems to suggest that “discouraged” is actually modifying the preceding clause. It is giving more information as to why “my sister” quit her job by stating the reason for it. Such modification in GMAT is not acceptable.

Hence the correct sentence is:

Discouraged by the long hours and low pay, my sister finally quit her job.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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Re: Can verb-ed modifier be without a comma ? [#permalink] New post 07 Aug 2013, 03:16
Expert's post
blueseas wrote:
mau5 wrote:
mau5 wrote:

I believe this part is erroneous.

Usually, if the structure is : Comma + Verb-ed, then the modifier generally modifies the subject of the clause, not the closest noun.

If the structure is without a comma, then verb-ed modifier will modify the closest noun.



http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/on- ... 33-30.html

Read the post by Ron, 5th from bottom.


hi mau,
please refer this.
below was the reply given by e-gmat
verb-ed-modifiers-vs-verb-ing-modifiers-125611.html#p1113449
Hi there,

Thanks for liking the article. I’m glad to know that it has been useful for you. Now let’s get to your question.

My sister finally quit her job, discouraged by the long hours and low pay.

Yes, you are correct in saying that the verb-ed modifier can modify either the immediate preceding noun or the immediate preceding noun phrase. A verb-ed modifier cannot jump over a verb to modify a noun in the subject place. The entity that a verb-ed modifier modifies has to precede it.

Also, if you read this sentence properly, it seems to suggest that “discouraged” is actually modifying the preceding clause. It is giving more information as to why “my sister” quit her job by stating the reason for it. Such modification in GMAT is not acceptable.

Hence the correct sentence is:

Discouraged by the long hours and low pay, my sister finally quit her job.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.


I believe that you read the example given by Ron? . When you say that it will ALWAYS modify the closest noun/noun phrase, that's what makes it wrong. This rule is not mandatory. And more so, the example given by you, is I believe inspired from here : http://grammar.about.com/od/basicsenten ... phrase.htm

Please read the reason given for that particular sentence to be awkward. Thus, in a nutshell, it is not a mandatory rule that a verb-ed modifier will "ALWAYS" modify the closest noun/noun phrase.
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Re: Can verb-ed modifier be without a comma ? [#permalink] New post 07 Aug 2013, 03:30
mau5 wrote:

I believe that you read the example given by Ron? I have even made the word "Always' bold in my response. When you say that it will ALWAYS modify the closest noun/noun phrase, that's what makes it wrong. This rule is not mandatory. And more so, the example given by you, is I believe inspired from here : http://grammar.about.com/od/basicsenten ... phrase.htm

Please read the reason given for that particular sentence to be awkward. Thus, in a nutshell, it is not a mandatory rule that a verb-ed modifier will "ALWAYS" modify the closest noun/noun phrase.


yes i can see where i made mistake.(ALWAYS)
i will edit that part.
thanks
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Re: Can verb-ed modifier be without a comma ? [#permalink] New post 09 Aug 2013, 10:12
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gmatter0913 wrote:
What is the difference if we introduce "that"?

My question is shouldn't the sentence be - " the army of terra-cotta warriors that was created to protect..."?


Hi gmatter0913,

Note when you introduce THAT - it implies there are multiple "Armies of terra-cotta warriors"

...and the kind we are talking about is the kind THAT blah blah blah..


Now ask yourself: are there multiple terra-cotta warriors?

No - they are known as a single entity in history.

If, however, there existed terra-cotta warriors in China as well as Africa and London then you can use THAT to specifically narrow down the KIND of terra-cotta warriors the author is referencing.

Since this is not the case, it would not make sense to use THAT.
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Re: Can verb-ed modifier be without a comma ? [#permalink] New post 11 Aug 2013, 20:25
mau5 wrote:
blueseas wrote:
gmatter0913 wrote:
Sentence 1: The space ship, designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years, cannot be made with poor quality materials.

Can we say as below? ( I understand that if we remove the comma, we change the meaning as the sentence refers to a specific space ship)

The space ship designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years cannot be made with poor quality materials.

What is the difference if we introduce "that"? - The space ship that is designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation...


Could someone apply the same to the below "verb-ed" modifier?

Rivaling the pyramids of Egypt or even the ancient cities of the Maya as an achievement, the army of terra-cotta warriors created to protect Qin Shi Huang, China's first emperor, in his afterlife is more than 2,000 years old and took 700,000 artisans more than 36 years to complete.

My question is shouldn't the sentence be - " the army of terra-cotta warriors that is created to protect..."?


hi,

IMO

The space ship ,designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years, cannot be made with poor quality materials.
putting between the commas makes it a non essential modifier....WHICH IS SAME AS :

The space ship ,WHICH IS designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years, cannot be made with poor quality materials.

NOW:
The space ship designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years cannot be made with poor quality materials.
NOW IN THIS CASE IT IS ESSENTIAL MODFIER WHICH IS SAME AS;
The space ship THAT IS designed to withstand low earth orbit radiation for 20 years cannot be made with poor quality materials.


but in all the cases it is modifying the closest noun space ship.(which is the property of verb-ed modifier).

so in your question:
the army of terra-cotta warriors that is created to protect.===>i dont think that this changes the meaning...


VERB-ED modifiers always modify the closest noun...with or without comma.


hope it helps


I believe this part is erroneous.

Usually, if the structure is : Comma + Verb-ed, then the modifier generally modifies the subject of the clause, not the closest noun.

If the structure is without a comma, then verb-ed modifier will modify the closest noun.


Well, I have read the Ron's answer, and I am amuse
. However, it is not true that comma + Verb-ed GENERALLY modifies the subject.

Furthermore, I stand on the position of E-gmat, that comma+ VERB-ed always modify clousest noun of noun phrase IN GMAT, as I I have seen no examples in Ron's videos that contradict this rule.
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Re: Can verb-ed modifier be without a comma ? [#permalink] New post 15 Aug 2013, 00:51
Firstly, I thank you all for putting forward a good discussion on this topic.

Ron says -

, verb-ed modifier (preceded by a comma) modifies the subject of the preceding clause.

e-gmat says -

, verb-ed modifier (preceded by a comma) cannot jump over the verb (in the preceding clause) to modify the subject, and hence it always modifies the preceding noun or noun phrase.

Who is correct?

Blueseas, Could you help me on this?
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Re: Can verb-ed modifier be without a comma ? [#permalink] New post 15 Aug 2013, 01:24
I think e-gmat is right and their example of OG12 Q56 is spot on.

The only question I have is: We're saying that the rules is not always true as sometimes it depends on the meaning.

Am I right?
Re: Can verb-ed modifier be without a comma ?   [#permalink] 15 Aug 2013, 01:24
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