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# EDIT by Praet: thanks mayur,gmatblast. great work. i

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EDIT by Praet: thanks mayur,gmatblast. great work. i  [#permalink]  18 May 2004, 11:53
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EDIT by Praet: thanks mayur,gmatblast. great work. i request other members to solve these tough problems. Dont always look for gmat type problems. the concepts are more important than gmat type Q's. thanks ndidi for posting the question.

Find the number of (a) combinations and (b) permutations of 4 letters each that can be made from the letters of the word TENNESSEE.
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Re: PS - Tennessee [#permalink]  19 May 2004, 10:28
ndidi204 wrote:
Find the number of (a) combinations and (b) permutations of 4 letters each that can be made from the letters of the word TENNESSEE.

with repeating or w/o repeating?

w/ repeating= combination 9C4=9!/4!*5!
Permutation 9P4=9!/5!

W/o Repeating:
combination 4C4=1
Permutation 4P4=4!
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[#permalink]  19 May 2004, 20:28
You are asking to compute combinations based on a multi-set {1.T, 4.E, 2.N, 2.S}, ill-formed question!

You framed this question, didn't you?
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[#permalink]  20 May 2004, 07:41
Can someone post the solution? I have given this question a lot of thought and I can't figure out how to do it. I know the total number of ways the letter can be arranged.

(9c4)*(5c2)*(3c2)*1=3780 or 9!/(4!*2!*2!)=3780

I can't figure out how many ways there are to arrange these letters into a group of 4 due to the repeating letters. Any thoughts?
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[#permalink]  21 May 2004, 04:57
Nope, I did not frame the question. I found it in a Schaum's Outline algebra book and I couldn't solve it. It wasn't solved in the book either but the answer is listed.
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[#permalink]  23 May 2004, 23:06
then the answer to a) would be #integer solutions to x1+x2+x3+x4 = 4, where 0 <= x1 <= 4; 0 <= x2, x3 <= 2; 0 <= x4 <=1

something less than 25
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[#permalink]  24 May 2004, 01:55
The solution is this: -
There are 9 letters of 4 different sorts: -
TENNESSEE
T â€“ 1; E â€“ 4; N â€“ 2; S â€“ 2

Possibilities: -
Selections: -
1. All the 4 alike
2. 3 Alike, 1 different
3. 2 Alike, 2 Others alike
4. 2 Alike, 2 Others different
5. All the 4 different

Combinations: -

1. There is 1 group that has all the four alike and this can be selected in 1 way. (All Es)
2. 3 Alike can be selected in C(4,3) = 4 Ways (From the 4 Es) and one different can be selected in C(3,1) = 3 ways (from T, N & S). So, 4 X 3 =12 Ways.
3. 2 Alike and 2 others alike can be selected in C(3,2) = 3 Ways (E, N & S)
4. 2 Alike in C(3,1) = 3 Ways and then 2 others from the remaining 3 i.e., C(3,2) = 3 ways. So, 3 X3 = 9 Ways
5. All the 4 different in C(4,4) = 1 way

Total = 1 + 12 + 3 + 9 + 1 = 26 ways

Permutations: -

1. 1 X 4! / 4! = 1 way
2. 12 X 4! / 3! = 48 Ways
3. 3 X 4! / (2! X 2!) = 12 Ways
4. 9 X 4! / 2! = 108 Ways
5. 1 X 4! = 2 Ways

Total = 1 + 48 + 12 + 108 + 2 = 171 Ways
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[#permalink]  31 May 2004, 16:36
We have 4 different letters (T, E, N, S) and we can create the combinations of 4 letters in the following ways:

(1) Using only 1 of the 4 letters; the only possibility is using E; So the possible combination is EEEE

(2) Using only 2 of the 4 letters; list down the possibilities in systematic way.

--Try to find the combinations using T & E only, T & N only, T & S only, E & N only, E & S only, and N & S only. (Total 6 combinations will result)

(3) Using only 3 of the 4 letters; list down the possibilities in systematic way.

-- Try to list the combinations using T, E & N only, T , E & S only, E, N & S only, T, N & S only. (There will be 8 combinations)

(4) Using all the 4 letters. Only one is possible.

Total combinations = 17

Total permutations = 9! / (1! * 4! * 2! * 2!) = 3780
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[#permalink]  01 Jun 2004, 09:49
gmatblast,
In fact, I goofed up. I agree that the total no. of selections is 17 as follows: -
There are 9 letters of 4 different sorts: -
TENNESSEE
T – 1; E – 4; N – 2; S – 2

Possibilities: -
Selections: -
1. All the 4 alike
2. 3 Alike, 1 different
3. 2 Alike, 2 Others alike
4. 2 Alike, 2 Others different
5. All the 4 different

Combinations: -

1. There is 1 group that has all the four alike and this can be selected in 1 way. (All Es)
2. 3 Alike can be selected in 1 Way (From the 4 Es) and one different can be selected in C(3,1) = 3 ways (from T, N & S). So, 1 X 3 =3 Ways.
3. 2 Alike and 2 others alike can be selected in C(3,2) = 3 Ways (E, N & S)
4. 2 Alike in C(3,1) = 3 Ways and then 2 others from the remaining 3 i.e., C(3,2) = 3 ways. So, 3 X3 = 9 Ways
5. All the 4 different in C(4,4) = 1 way

Total = 1 + 3 + 3 + 9 + 1 = 17 ways

Permutations: -

1. 1 X 4! / 4! = 1 way
2. 3 X 4! / 3! = 12 Ways
3. 3 X 4! / (2! X 2!) = 18 Ways
4. 9 X 4! / 2! = 108 Ways
5. 1 X 4! = 24 Ways

Total = 1 + 12 + 18 + 108 + 24 = 163 Ways

The problem asks for permutations of 4 lettered words. Hence, we have to use the above method. The solution you gave is for the permutation of all the letters, i.e., 9 letters.

In fact, I posted a similar problem with the word "PROPORTION" on May 18 and posted the answer on May 19 2004.

ndidi204,
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[#permalink]  02 Jun 2004, 11:33
Hey Mayur, I'll do so before the end of the day. I don't currently have the book.
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[#permalink]  04 Jun 2004, 04:06
Mayur, you got it right!!!

# of Combinations = 17
# of Permutations = 163

Good job.
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[#permalink]  04 Jun 2004, 23:32
great discussion guys

this is the post of the week.

thanks to all who participated
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[#permalink]  09 Jun 2004, 07:31
I am getting a different answer for the permutations. I would appreciate some clarifications

chosing 4 letters from TENNESSEE and arranging them can be done in following ways
TEEE = 4!/3! = 4
TEEN = 4!/2! = 12
TEES = 4!/2! = 12
TENN = 4!/2! = 12
TESS = 4!/2! = 12
TENS = 4! = 24
TNNS = 4!/2! = 12
TNSS = 4!/2! = 12
EEEE = 4!/4! = 1
EEEN = 4!/3! = 4
EEES = 4!/3! = 4
EENN = 4!/( 2! 2! ) = 6
EESS = 4!/(2! 2!) = 6
EENS = 4!/2! = 12
NNSS = 4!/(2! 2!) = 6

Total = 139
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[#permalink]  09 Jun 2004, 07:40
Anandnk,

You forgot NSSE and SENN

Those should give you the remaining 24 you need.
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[#permalink]  09 Jun 2004, 07:42
Yeah you are right. Brute force is not a good method to solve these problems.

139+12+12 = 163
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[#permalink]  09 Jun 2004, 07:52
Anandnk, you forgot NNES and SSEN. There are 17 ways and you have 15
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[#permalink]  09 Jun 2004, 07:53
few minutes two late staring at these from work
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[#permalink]  14 Jun 2004, 10:04
Can you explain how to convert from combinations to permutations?
Mayur wrote:
The solution is this: -
There are 9 letters of 4 different sorts: -
TENNESSEE
T â€“ 1; E â€“ 4; N â€“ 2; S â€“ 2

Possibilities: -
Selections: -
1. All the 4 alike
2. 3 Alike, 1 different
3. 2 Alike, 2 Others alike
4. 2 Alike, 2 Others different
5. All the 4 different

Combinations: -

1. There is 1 group that has all the four alike and this can be selected in 1 way. (All Es)
2. 3 Alike can be selected in C(4,3) = 4 Ways (From the 4 Es) and one different can be selected in C(3,1) = 3 ways (from T, N & S). So, 4 X 3 =12 Ways.
3. 2 Alike and 2 others alike can be selected in C(3,2) = 3 Ways (E, N & S)
4. 2 Alike in C(3,1) = 3 Ways and then 2 others from the remaining 3 i.e., C(3,2) = 3 ways. So, 3 X3 = 9 Ways
5. All the 4 different in C(4,4) = 1 way

Total = 1 + 12 + 3 + 9 + 1 = 26 ways

Permutations: -

1. 1 X 4! / 4! = 1 way
2. 12 X 4! / 3! = 48 Ways
3. 3 X 4! / (2! X 2!) = 12 Ways
4. 9 X 4! / 2! = 108 Ways
5. 1 X 4! = 2 Ways

Total = 1 + 48 + 12 + 108 + 2 = 171 Ways
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[#permalink]  14 Jun 2004, 19:18
When we select (combinations), we arrange(permutations) them. In the first case, we select all the 4 alike in 1 way and arrange them 4!/4! ways.

Similarly, in the second case, we select in 12 ways and arrange the letters of the word in 4!/3! ways.
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[#permalink]  28 Jun 2004, 11:24
maxpowers,
answering too late.....but heres how one converts from npr to ncr and vice versa.

nCr= n!/ (r! * (n-r)! )
nPr= n!/ (n-r)!

clearly nPr = nCr * r!
here r=4
that is why we see all the combinations multiplied by 4!

Now there is a formula that if you have a n items with p,q,r things as groups in them.

nPr = n! / (p!q!r!)

So that's why you see the denominators under the 4!...they are the groups of common letters.

- ash
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ash
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I'm crossing the bridge.........

[#permalink] 28 Jun 2004, 11:24
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