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Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal

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Re: Even though Clovis points , spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 19 Nov 2012, 05:19
Archit143 wrote:
Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been round all over north America ,they are named for the new Mexico site where whey were first discovered in 1932

1) Even though Clovis points , spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over north America, they are named for the new Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.
2) Although named for the new Mexico site where fist discovered in 1932. Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over north America .
3) Named for the new Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932. Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over north America .
4) Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces ,Clovis points , even though named for the new Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over north America .
5) While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them ,they have been found all over north America ,and named for the new Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932

PLs suggest split for getting quick solution to the question.



My Ans:

1) Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been round all over north America ,they are named for the new Mexico site where whey were first discovered in 1932

spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces - Modifier modifies Clovis points
Even though Clovis points have been round all over north America -- Dependent Clause ( have been round -- present perfect goes with present tense of second half)
they are named for the new Mexico site where whey were first discovered in 1932 -- Independent Clause ( are named -- plural present tense)

I felt following errors with other choices.. Please go ahead and correct me if anything is wrong.
2) Although named for the new Mexico site where fist discovered in 1932. Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over north America . ( I felt contrast was not established properly as it was two independent sentences)
3) Named for the new Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932. Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over north America . (same as B)
4) Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces ,Clovis points , even though named for the new Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over north America . (contrast word "Even though" is modifying Clovis point)
5) While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them ,they have been found all over north America ,and named for the new Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932 (them doesn't have proper antecedent and wordy)


Whats wrong with B and C?
I felt construction of two independent clause with . (dot) was wrong in GMAT. because i have never faced such question i guess.
Did any one come across like this construction with .(dot) in answers.??

If i was wrong in any place pls correct me!

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Re: Even though Clovis points , spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 19 Nov 2012, 13:13
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Hi there,

Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been round all over north America ,they are named for the new Mexico site where whey were first discovered in 1932.

The contrast set by the original sentence is that Clovis Points have been found in all over the North America, but they are named for the New Mexico where they were first discovered in 1932. This contrast is correct.

So let’s proceed to the PoE now:

A. Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932. Correct. No errors.

B. Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America. Incorrect.
Notice the contrast this choice presents. It says although CPs are named for New Mexico site where…, they are spear points. This is not the intended contrast. The contrast is between where they have been found and for what they have been named. This sentence presents the contrast that says they are named for NM site but they look like this.

C. Named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932, Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over North America. Incorrect.

1. Use of present perfect tense “have been discovered” is incorrect to refer to an action that took place in 1932.

2. This sentence does not present any contrast.

D. Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.Incorrect.
1. There is only one verb for "Spear points…”. But still the choice is using “but”. This means there should be another verb here. Absence of this verb leads to fragment error.

E. While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them, they have been found all over North America, and named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932. Incorrect.

1. Per this sentence, the contrast is that CPs are spear points but they have been found all over the North America and are named for the NM site. This certainly is not the intended contrast.

Take Away

1. Understand the context of the sentence very well. Carefully notice the contrasts or comparisons made.

2. Assess if those contrasts or comparisons are logical or not.

3. Once you get the intended logical meaning, do the POE to find out which answer choice conveys the intended meaning in the best way.

Hope this helps. :)
Thanks
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 22 Nov 2012, 18:28
Hi Shraddha,
Can you explain what you mean by "1. There is only one verb for "Spear points…”. But still the choice is using “but”. This means there should be another verb here. Absence of this verb leads to fragment error." for option D?
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 23 Nov 2012, 06:40
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vsprakash2003 wrote:
Hi Shraddha,
Can you explain what you mean by "1. There is only one verb for "Spear points…”. But still the choice is using “but”. This means there should be another verb here. Absence of this verb leads to fragment error." for option D?


Hi there,

Choice D reads:

Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.

Carefully note the structure of this sentence. The subject here is Spear points. The verb for this subject is “were found”. But this verb is preceded by “but”. This means we have a contrast here. For that, we need one more verb for the subject then only we can join another verb with the same subject by using “but”. For example:

The coffee smells sweet but tastes bitter.

Here, we have two verbs for subject “The coffee” – “smells” and “tastes”. Because we have two verbs for the same subject and we are presenting contrast here, we join the two verbs with “but”.

However, there is a verb missing for Spear points.

Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932,but were found all over North America.

This is the structure of the independent clause. We have a verb missing here. This leads to fragment.












Hope this helps.
Thanks.
Shraddha
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 23 Nov 2012, 06:44
Thanks Shraddha. This is very helpful
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 03 Jan 2013, 18:49
contrast between the naming convention and the occurence of spear points all over america is clearly identified in choice A.
Other choices change the meaning of the sentence.
Good explanation!!
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 21 Jan 2013, 15:15
I was completely lost with this question because I could not comprehend the use of 'named for' and I was looking for the choice with 'named after'! :s

Another Americanism I learnt thanks to GMAT!
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Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 05 Apr 2013, 03:21
Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been round all over north America ,they are named for the new Mexico site where whey were first discovered in 1932

A) Even though Clovis points , spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over north America, they are named for the new Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.
B) Although named for the new Mexico site where fist discovered in 1932. Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over north America .
C) Named for the new Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932. Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over north America .
D) Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces ,Clovis points , even though named for the new Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over north America .
E) While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them ,they have been found all over north America ,and named for the new Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932

I am confused between A& B.Whats problem with B?
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal gr [#permalink] New post 05 Apr 2013, 16:10
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mun23 wrote:
Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been round all over north America ,they are named for the new Mexico site where whey were first discovered in 1932

A) Even though Clovis points , spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over north America, they are named for the new Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.
B) Although named for the new Mexico site where fist discovered in 1932. Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over north America .
C) Named for the new Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932. Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over north America .
D) Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces ,Clovis points , even though named for the new Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over north America .
E) While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them ,they have been found all over north America ,and named for the new Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932

I am confused between A & B. Whats problem with B?

I'm happy to help. :-)

Of course, this is OG13 SC#96.

As a general rule, a subordinate conjunction, such as "although" or "even though" or "while", should be followed by a full [noun] + [verb] structure. The GMAT doesn't like following a subordinate conjunction with simply a participial phrase, such as the participial phrase "named for the new Mexico site where fist discovered in 1932". It's tricky, because this structure is quite common in colloquial English ....
While sleeping, I ...
Although wasting time, he ....
Because already tired, she ...

Any of those might pass in colloquial speech, but they would be 100% wrong on the GMAT Sentence Correction. This is the problem with (B).

For participial phrases, see:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/participle ... -the-gmat/

For more on where verbs are needed:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/gmat-gramm ... b-mistake/

Does all this make sense?

Mike :-)
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 01 May 2013, 22:13
All duplicate threads on this topic have been merged.

Please check and follow the Guidelines for Posting in Verbal GMAT forum before posting anything.
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 05 Jan 2014, 03:02
KC wrote:
Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been round all over north America ,they are named for the new Mexico site where whey were first discovered in 1932

1) Even though Clovis points , spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over north America, they are named for the new Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.
2) Although named for the new Mexico site where fist discovered in 1932. Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over north America .
3) Named for the new Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932. Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over north America .
4) Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces ,Clovis points , even though named for the new Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over north America .
5) While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them ,they have been found all over north America ,and named for the new Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932


In this case, A) actually sounded weird to me the first time, but as always if you cannot explicitly find flaws with the option, you keep it as a contender.


B) Im not sure, but I THINK "although" implies a subordinate clause, and thus the whole first sentence is fragmented. Therefore, grammatically incorrect.

C) Same problem with C as B, this time we seem to have a main clause that abruptly ends. The period should be a comma, and the whole rest of the sentence needs to be structured differently to make logical sense with the main clause (you'd end up with too many commas if you simply change the period to a comma).

D) The "but" at the end of the sentence does not make sense. What does "but" contrast, here? I also think "even though named" sounds weird in that context.

E) The unessential clause incorrectly starts with "they" instead of "which" (and even at that, I believe "which" would incorrectly refer to faces instead of Clovis points). Also, the "while" in the beginning makes it seem as if something is going to be contrasted, and the word "and" at the end is incorrectly used with this in mind.

Now, let's look at A again: The unessential clause that follows the introduction is correct, you do not need which in this case. "Have been" correctly refers to clovis points since clovis points is the last word before the unessential clause, "they" correctly refers to Clovis points since both of the clauses inbetween more or less simply describe our clovis points "EVEN THOUGH clovis points... have been found... THEY" is a correct structure. They does not refer to america because "even though" is contrasted by "they", and BOTH of them refer to clovis points.

A is correct
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 28 Feb 2014, 00:36
Though A is better than the rest of the options.
But still is it ok to say "named for the new Mexico site" rather should it not be "named after the new Mexico site".
Please help.
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 01 Mar 2014, 22:53
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Option A.
All other options have clearly identifiable mistakes.
B reverses the intended meaning by reversing the irony.
C completely does away with the irony.
In D,'even though-but' is incorrect idiomatic usage.
In E,'while' doesn't present the intended meaning correctly.

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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 08 May 2014, 18:50
Hi Mike

Can you please explain why past perfect is incorrect in C? If they "have been discovered in 1932" -- doesn't that imply that they are still around after being discovered? Isn't that the purpose of "have been"?

Thanks!
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 31 May 2014, 00:31
a hard question, I think
in this kind of question, we can not use grammar rule or normal logicr rule to consider each choice independently and to eliminate the incorrect. we use a new logic rule: the meaning/logic relation among clauses must be clear.

we see there are meaning differences between main clause and subordinate clause across the choices. a subodinate clause need a logic main clause- this is the rule.

we have to compare the choices to see the difference in relations between cluases to go to answer choices.

a hard one but it is very basic and practical question for us to convey the intended meaning.
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 04 Jun 2014, 11:17
Expert's post
russ9 wrote:
Hi Mike

Can you please explain why past perfect is incorrect in C? If they "have been discovered in 1932" -- doesn't that imply that they are still around after being discovered? Isn't that the purpose of "have been"?

Thanks!




Hi russ9,

You are absolutely correct in saying that the present perfect tense can be used for an event that was completed in the past and whose effect is still visible in the present. However that is not the case in the above question.
Let’s take a look at a few simple examples before we discuss the official question. Can you identify which of the following sentences are correct?

1. The invention of steam engine has made our lives easier.

2. The invention of steam engine made our lives easier.

3. The steam engine has been invented in the 18th century.

4. The steam engine was invented in the 18th century.



EXAMPLE 1 & 2

Both these sentences tell us about the effects of the invention of the steam engine. The invention happened at a certain point of time in the past that is not mentioned in the sentence. However the effects of the invention (making our lives easier) are visible in the present context. So, the correct way to represent this event is by using the present perfect tense. Hence, example 1 is correct.
The simple past tense ‘made’ represents that the invention made our lives easier at a certain point of time in the past.


EXAMPLE 3 & 4

Both these sentences tell us about an event (the invention of steam engine) that happened in the 18th century. Since it is clearly mentioned in the sentence when the event happened and the sentence does not talk about the effects of this event, the correct way to represent this event is by using the simple past tense. So, example 4 is correct.


OFFICIAL QUESTION

From the context of this question, it is clear that Clovis points were first discovered at a certain point of time in the past: i.e., in 1932. The first discovery itself does not extend into the present. So, the discovery of the Clovis points is an event that happened in 1932 and hence it should be represented using the simple past tense (were discovered).

Note that the use of the present perfect tense verb “have been found” is perfectly correct here. Since the action of finding the Clovis points is a continuous action that started in the past and has continued over the years, it is represented using the present perfect tense (have been found).


Hope this helps! :)

Regards,
Deepak
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 04 Jun 2014, 20:40
The intent of the author was to convey the contrast that --- inspite of being named after some mexican sites , this object is more prominently found in N America. Only A brings that contrast ( possibly the tone of irony ) clearly out of all the options.

PS - While answering , I did not go into any nitty gritty highlighted above by all. I just tried to get the intended meaning of the author , the tone ( bring out the irony) and the right option was quite clear.
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 04 Jun 2014, 20:43
mun23 wrote:
Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been round all over north America ,they are named for the new Mexico site where whey were first discovered in 1932

A) Even though Clovis points , spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over north America, they are named for the new Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.
B) Although named for the new Mexico site where fist discovered in 1932. Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over north America .
C) Named for the new Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932. Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over north America .
D) Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces ,Clovis points , even though named for the new Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over north America .
E) While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them ,they have been found all over north America ,and named for the new Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932

I am confused between A& B.Whats problem with B?


My thoughts which made B look incorrect -

Although named for the new Mexico site where fist discovered in 1932. Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over north America

the clovis points were not named for Mexico site but named after the Mexico site.

Mike and other experts - would this be a correct assessment
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Re: Even though Clovis points , spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 04 Jun 2014, 20:52
egmat wrote:
Hi there,

Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been round all over north America ,they are named for the new Mexico site where whey were first discovered in 1932.

The contrast set by the original sentence is that Clovis Points have been found in all over the North America, but they are named for the New Mexico where they were first discovered in 1932. This contrast is correct.

So let’s proceed to the PoE now:

A. Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932. Correct. No errors.

B. Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America. Incorrect.
Notice the contrast this choice presents. It says although CPs are named for New Mexico site where…, they are spear points. This is not the intended contrast. The contrast is between where they have been found and for what they have been named. This sentence presents the contrast that says they are named for NM site but they look like this.

C. Named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932, Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over North America. Incorrect.

1. Use of present perfect tense “have been discovered” is incorrect to refer to an action that took place in 1932.

2. This sentence does not present any contrast.

D. Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.Incorrect.
1. There is only one verb for "Spear points…”. But still the choice is using “but”. This means there should be another verb here. Absence of this verb leads to fragment error.

E. While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them, they have been found all over North America, and named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932. Incorrect.

1. Per this sentence, the contrast is that CPs are spear points but they have been found all over the North America and are named for the NM site. This certainly is not the intended contrast.

Take Away

1. Understand the context of the sentence very well. Carefully notice the contrasts or comparisons made.

2. Assess if those contrasts or comparisons are logical or not.

3. Once you get the intended logical meaning, do the POE to find out which answer choice conveys the intended meaning in the best way.

Hope this helps. :)
Thanks
Shraddha


Shraddha , I believe that if one is having even a fairly decent command over English language and one is strong on the three points mentioned by you , 95% of SC questions should be very easily doable. the remaining 5% might play over the difference between British / American Eng or idioms etc
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal [#permalink] New post 19 Jun 2014, 07:10
KC wrote:
Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been round all over north America ,they are named for the new Mexico site where whey were first discovered in 1932

1) Even though Clovis points , spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over north America, they are named for the new Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.
2) Although named for the new Mexico site where fist discovered in 1932. Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over north America .
3) Named for the new Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932. Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over north America .
4) Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces ,Clovis points , even though named for the new Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over north America .
5) While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them ,they have been found all over north America ,and named for the new Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932



In the above sentence; 'spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces' is parenthetical and sounds awkward when read in a flow. Eliminate that information as it only defines Clovis points.
And now read the statement below.
Even though Clovis points have been round all over north America, they are named for the new Mexico site where whey were first discovered in 1932.
Ere-go Option A makes sense and hence correct.



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Thank You :snipersmile:
Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal   [#permalink] 19 Jun 2014, 07:10
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