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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 28 Dec 2011, 20:32
asimov wrote:
cheetarah1980 wrote:
You may not be intending your words to come across this way, but you seem to be insinuating that the reason URMs are getting places in top schools and jobs is to fill quotas and not based off their qualifications. Yes, schools and businesses have diversity targets that they want to hit. But I will tell you that schools and companies are not picking up any Black, Latino, or Native American candidate that crosses their path just to hit these numbers. In fact, many companies and schools STRUGGLE to come close to their targets no matter how much recruiting they do amongst these groups. Why? Because if a candidate cannot meet a certain threshold then it doesn't matter what their ethnicity/race is, they're not getting the offer. As a URM it's disheartening to see people reduce our places in schools and jobs as a "filled quota."
Even if this was not your intention, please know that it comes across in the words you choose.
I'm not saying there's no bar, the bar is just lower.


There is a minimum barrier to entry for top schools (and afterward jobs). That barrier is the same for all candidates. Adcoms are not saying that certain groups only contain quality candidates above a certain threshold while another group can show that quality at a lower one. The lower one is the standard to which ALL applicants must meet (and it's a nebulous standard that even I can't pinpoint). However, if a certain group exceeds a particular threshold in one area (GPA/GMAT) then amongst those candidates that becomes a distinguishing factor. It becomes especially important when that applicant pool applies in large numbers. I'm not going to lie and say that URMs don't get in with lower stats than other applicants. However, there aren't NEARLY the # of URMs applying to schools as other applicant groups. There are fewer applicants and thus fewer with nosebleed GMAT scores (although there are quite a few). While the URM candidates who meet the admissions criteria may not generally far exceed it based on GPA/GMAT, they often do so on other metrics (work progress, leadership, etc.). Is one criteria more important than the other? Or do schools (and employers) need people who excel in different areas? GPA/GMAT is the easiest one to point to and tell one group that, "You have it easier. Your bar is lower." But on the flip side people from "over represented groups" get just as defensive when told, "You bring nothing besides a high GPA and GMAT."

Thankfully, admissions (and subsequent employment) is not solely based on "stats" nor solely on "personal qualities." Stats are not the only indication of the quality of ANYONE'S candidacy (whether high or low). And being a charismatic leader will not make up for the fact that someone cannot handle a program's rigor. Yes, I do wish more URMs were coming to the admissions game with 700+ GMAT scores, but not because it makes them a better candidate but moreso to end the speculation about why they have a spot in the class.
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 28 Dec 2011, 20:37
Personally, I think that any URM attending a top business has met the same standards for admission as their non-minority peers. They have the business experiences and unique perspectives to prove valuable to class discussion as well as the grades and test scores to prove academically capable.

Wharton once stated that 70% of the applications they receive come from qualified applicants. All URMs accepted to top programs obviously fall into this group and add something unique to the student body. They contribute to a well-rounded class and are selected for admission accordingly.
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 28 Dec 2011, 21:49
Quote:
This is a pretty racist statement. You are basically saying that Asians are only good at getting higher scores, but lack other skills. This is simply not a true assertion. If Asians lack inherent drive and creativity, why are the Asian economies doing so well? The perception about other people is a dangerous one to have. Because one day they will eat your lunch.


I'm sorry, but I have to ask you where you got the idea that I was making a racist statement. That is a strong assertion and I take that kind of assertion very seriously. Where did you get the conclusion that Asians are only good at getting higher scores from what I wrote?

Have you ever stopped to wonder why I said I am able to look at this from insider's perspective? Everything I wrote on my previous post is true - that's what I went through when I was young. I was educated in 3 countries throughout my life and I think it's safe to say I know what I'm talking about since I experience all of them myself. Education and work culture in Asia is very different from one you might have experienced elsewhere. I don't know what your background is but most schools and workplaces in Asia discourage being different and creative. It's sad, but it's true. It may have created many people excel academically but for many of them they're mostly empty shell who lack important attributes and leadership skills that MBA schools look favorably upon. It shows on applications and schools notice. As I said, there's always an exception. Among all those academically-competitive applicants ones who will really shine are the ones that was able to grow and nurture their leadership skills and attributes through rigorous if not hellish studying for nearly 15 years. It's a difference in mindset and culture, and that's why I said you lack the experience and knowledge to make your assertions citing MLK and Gandhi - This is something you have to experience to understand.

Asian economies doing so well? Have you even been to Asia? It might look good with all the skyscrapers from outside but inside it's a mess. The gap between rich and poor, inflation, kids committing suicides b/c of low grades, top college grads struggling to find jobs, soaring jobless rates....the list goes on. Believe it or not, beside the horrible world economy we face nowadays, it has a lot to do with what I mentioned above - fanatic education culture that discourages creativity and only pushes for numbers on record. I don't expect you to understand, but that's what's going on. It's a social problem here.

Quote:
Furthermore, I do believe b-school should accept the best holistic candidate. However, when there is an arbitrary definition of “diversity”, and you slot the classes this way, it inherently causes inequity. For example, two candidates with equal softer skills and quant skills, one is URM, one isn’t, which one do you think would get the slot? Now let’s presume, two candidates with equal softer skills, the URM has lower stats, but the non-URM slots has been filled. Who do you think would get the admit? Is this fair and equitable? What happen if the URM was brought up in an affluent family? The non-URM had to fight their way through poor education opportunity, and difficulty in getting recommenders who can write in English. Did the URM add diversity to the mix?

Any time when there is a pre-determined class mix, you lose the argument accepting the best candidate.


Going back to MBA topics, as I mentioned It will work as disadvantages for candidates from Asia and China. That means it worked as disadvantage for me when I applied to schools this year. Here's the bottom line though - suck it up, seriously. Bite the bullet, accept the situation, rock those applications and get into schools. If you are truly outstanding candidate, and if you truly want MBA, it's your responsibility to get what you want out of your life. No excuses necessary and no need to occupy business schools with I have a dream speech. I wish those schools have rooms for more Asian and Indian candidates, that would be wonderful, but that's not the world we live in and there are undeniable things in our lives that we need to consider when applying to B-schools. Population keeps growing and space is still limited. If people can't live or work with that fact, they should reconsider applying to B-schools.

The perception about other people is a dangerous one to have. Because one day they will eat your lunch. Beautiful statement my friend - totally agree. Except it was me sharing my thoughts based on my experience than me having the perception about other people. So let's refrain from jumping ships and accuse me for making racist comments first without knowing my background and where I come from, because that's very dangerous and one day will eat your lunch.
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 28 Dec 2011, 22:26
cheetarah, I would not say that the critical reasoning is bad. ;)

% are down, so the numbers of accepted as well since the class size does not change significantly over the time.
so number of accepted candidates is down+ number of applicants are increasing=higher competition!=>
fear to fail. so what to do? improve yourself (scores, english) and use a consultant for better essays.

sounds good. ;)
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 28 Dec 2011, 22:56
PTK wrote:
cheetarah, I would not say that the critical reasoning is bad. ;)

% are down, so the numbers of accepted as well since the class size does not change significantly over the time.
so number of accepted candidates is down+ number of applicants are increasing=higher competition!=>
fear to fail. so what to do? improve yourself (scores, english) and use a consultant for better essays.

sounds good. ;)


Hi PTK,
I was saying the critical reasoning was off in the assumption that since there is a smaller percentage of American applicants vs. international applicants then the American applicant pool is of lesser quality.

I do acknowledge that there is increased competition amongst Chinese and Indian applicants since they apply to b-schools in higher #s. And yes, the way to stand out amongst the competition is to improve things like English skills, essays, leadership, etc.
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 28 Dec 2011, 23:48
cheetarah1980 wrote:

Hi PTK,
I was saying the critical reasoning was off in the assumption that since there is a smaller percentage of American applicants vs. international applicants then the American applicant pool is of lesser quality.

I do acknowledge that there is increased competition amongst Chinese and Indian applicants since they apply to b-schools in higher #s. And yes, the way to stand out amongst the competition is to improve things like English skills, essays, leadership, etc.


Relax, I think he was complementing your CR skills, not the other way. :)
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 29 Dec 2011, 00:13
I couldn't have agreed more with this topic. This has been a season of dings w/o i/v for me. I think my essays and recommendations were decent enough to at-least get an interview call. Right now I am clueless as to what might have went wrong and I am not able to select appropriate colleges to apply in Round 2.

I think that the adcoms are not even reading essays. They are just rejected based on your profile.

My profile:
GMAT - 720/6.0
Work Ex - 3.5 years in leading IT MNCs as a Software Developer and team lead
Nationality - Indian
Extra curricular - decent with sports and NGO work

Colleges applied to in R1 and dinged:
Harvard
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Booth
Tepper
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 29 Dec 2011, 01:32
kumarutsav wrote:
My profile:
GMAT - 720/6.0
Work Ex - 3.5 years in leading IT MNCs as a Software Developer and team lead
Nationality - Indian
Extra curricular - decent with sports and NGO work



I personally know at least five different guys with the same work -ex in IT as team leads etc., 760+ GMATS, Sports, NGO etc. etc. dinged from the same schools.

Also I know a friend from your pool who made it to H/S this year and I can tell you - H/S goes for Indian IT males too but IIT/Facebook/Google is how they roll.


The sad part is, I also know guys with your same profile who applied five years back to Booth. Now working in Bain in Chicago.

Thats how it is. "Indian IT male" has become insanely competitive and burgeoned beyond help.

Sad but true.
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 29 Dec 2011, 02:11
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My Take on this :

Its simple fact Top US schools ( Read top 10) though global by reputation ,inherently are American schools ,catering to American Population. Just look at the % of Intls in these schools and it hovers around 30-40% ..So to include rest of world in that 40% to make it a diverse class is a tough ask , So yes hard luck to all Indians and Chinese applicants because it is bound to be tougher for us due to sheer number of applicants applying ...

So if you are very good and have experiences ( read work and beyond experiences) which add value to the class, you will be good to get in .. However if you are same like next candidate , no amount of GMAT/GPA will help us (read Indian IT Industry Software Experience) ...I am an Indian btw..

This is the harsh reality..

And someone mentioned Asian Economies doing well .... Its one thing economies doing well than West and its other having quality of life (read life, career, living) as West. The truth is still Asia inspite of its great strides have still long way to go... Goodbyeboy was spot on Rich Poor gap and inflation .. Outside Singapore and Hong Kong ,almost all think twice or thrice or even averse to accept a job role in other parts of Asia just because the living standards, money, lifestyle, comes no way close...

As long as India, China and other developing countries continue to their journey where their GDP Per capita, living standards,quality of life,infrastructure matches Advanced Economies , Western Educational establishments will continue to thrive on recieving large number of Asian applicants and thus will remain tougher for almost All Asian applicants





goodbyeboy wrote:
Quote:
This is a pretty racist statement. You are basically saying that Asians are only good at getting higher scores, but lack other skills. This is simply not a true assertion. If Asians lack inherent drive and creativity, why are the Asian economies doing so well? The perception about other people is a dangerous one to have. Because one day they will eat your lunch.


I'm sorry, but I have to ask you where you got the idea that I was making a racist statement. That is a strong assertion and I take that kind of assertion very seriously. Where did you get the conclusion that Asians are only good at getting higher scores from what I wrote?

Have you ever stopped to wonder why I said I am able to look at this from insider's perspective? Everything I wrote on my previous post is true - that's what I went through when I was young. I was educated in 3 countries throughout my life and I think it's safe to say I know what I'm talking about since I experience all of them myself. Education and work culture in Asia is very different from one you might have experienced elsewhere. I don't know what your background is but most schools and workplaces in Asia discourage being different and creative. It's sad, but it's true. It may have created many people excel academically but for many of them they're mostly empty shell who lack important attributes and leadership skills that MBA schools look favorably upon. It shows on applications and schools notice. As I said, there's always an exception. Among all those academically-competitive applicants ones who will really shine are the ones that was able to grow and nurture their leadership skills and attributes through rigorous if not hellish studying for nearly 15 years. It's a difference in mindset and culture, and that's why I said you lack the experience and knowledge to make your assertions citing MLK and Gandhi - This is something you have to experience to understand.

Asian economies doing so well? Have you even been to Asia? It might look good with all the skyscrapers from outside but inside it's a mess. The gap between rich and poor, inflation, kids committing suicides b/c of low grades, top college grads struggling to find jobs, soaring jobless rates....the list goes on. Believe it or not, beside the horrible world economy we face nowadays, it has a lot to do with what I mentioned above - fanatic education culture that discourages creativity and only pushes for numbers on record. I don't expect you to understand, but that's what's going on. It's a social problem here.

Quote:
Furthermore, I do believe b-school should accept the best holistic candidate. However, when there is an arbitrary definition of “diversity”, and you slot the classes this way, it inherently causes inequity. For example, two candidates with equal softer skills and quant skills, one is URM, one isn’t, which one do you think would get the slot? Now let’s presume, two candidates with equal softer skills, the URM has lower stats, but the non-URM slots has been filled. Who do you think would get the admit? Is this fair and equitable? What happen if the URM was brought up in an affluent family? The non-URM had to fight their way through poor education opportunity, and difficulty in getting recommenders who can write in English. Did the URM add diversity to the mix?

Any time when there is a pre-determined class mix, you lose the argument accepting the best candidate.


Going back to MBA topics, as I mentioned It will work as disadvantages for candidates from Asia and China. That means it worked as disadvantage for me when I applied to schools this year. Here's the bottom line though - suck it up, seriously. Bite the bullet, accept the situation, rock those applications and get into schools. If you are truly outstanding candidate, and if you truly want MBA, it's your responsibility to get what you want out of your life. No excuses necessary and no need to occupy business schools with I have a dream speech. I wish those schools have rooms for more Asian and Indian candidates, that would be wonderful, but that's not the world we live in and there are undeniable things in our lives that we need to consider when applying to B-schools. Population keeps growing and space is still limited. If people can't live or work with that fact, they should reconsider applying to B-schools.

The perception about other people is a dangerous one to have. Because one day they will eat your lunch. Beautiful statement my friend - totally agree. Except it was me sharing my thoughts based on my experience than me having the perception about other people. So let's refrain from jumping ships and accuse me for making racist comments first without knowing my background and where I come from, because that's very dangerous and one day will eat your lunch.
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 29 Dec 2011, 02:13
Anasthaesium wrote:
kumarutsav wrote:
My profile:
GMAT - 720/6.0
Work Ex - 3.5 years in leading IT MNCs as a Software Developer and team lead
Nationality - Indian
Extra curricular - decent with sports and NGO work



I personally know at least five different guys with the same work -ex in IT as team leads etc., 760+ GMATS, Sports, NGO etc. etc. dinged from the same schools.

Also I know a friend from your pool who made it to H/S this year and I can tell you - H/S goes for Indian IT males too but IIT/Facebook/Google is how they roll.


The sad part is, I also know guys with your same profile who applied five years back to Booth. Now working in Bain in Chicago.

Thats how it is. "Indian IT male" has become insanely competitive and burgeoned beyond help.

Sad but true.


Completely agree. Even I read tons of profiles like that on this site alone, and "decent profile and apps" just wont cut it - you need to literally be able to sell yourself to B school and tell them why this school and why MBA. Imagine how many adcoms have to go through profiles like this each year - no wonder it's so competitive.

Here's what's important though. You may have done the best job you could with all the resources you have, but you know the phrase "it's not you, it's me."? Some schools just fail to find values in you and ding some of the great candidates. In that case, either you bite the bullet and reapply to that school next year, or say screw that school and move on to the next school that may find values in you.
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 29 Dec 2011, 02:29
I understand the pain being an Indian Applicant.. but think of this way , you are on the other side of the process and are asked to choose 1-2 guys from 10 guys - All IT Software exp with good GMATs with NGO , Sports and other normal outside activties , how will you select?

All you can do now in R2 is to choose schools which historically were known to have as better % chances of accepting Indian IT applicants ( Read the schools outside 15) and try your best again ...




kumarutsav wrote:
I couldn't have agreed more with this topic. This has been a season of dings w/o i/v for me. I think my essays and recommendations were decent enough to at-least get an interview call. Right now I am clueless as to what might have went wrong and I am not able to select appropriate colleges to apply in Round 2.

I think that the adcoms are not even reading essays. They are just rejected based on your profile.

My profile:
GMAT - 720/6.0
Work Ex - 3.5 years in leading IT MNCs as a Software Developer and team lead
Nationality - Indian
Extra curricular - decent with sports and NGO work

Colleges applied to in R1 and dinged:
Harvard
Kellogg
Booth
Tepper
NUS
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 29 Dec 2011, 05:16
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This discussion is detracting from the original assertion – lower admission of Asian students is an issue that is not plausibly explained.
1) Diversity based on color of skin or nationality or sexual-orientation does not breed true thought diversity.
2) The measure of diversity is arbitrary.
a. Asian students are under indexed based on % population and % GDP.
b. I can argue that left-handed people are also under-index, we should start a diversity group for them. They have experience the world differently, have been forced to adapt in a right-handed world.
3) Not only has the % of admitted Asian student drop, but the absolute # (class mix) of Asian students have dropped (at least at Fuqua, above and beyond normal statistically variation). This is in light of increased application from Asia. Is this not interesting?

A couple of people mentioned that high Gini coefficient (wealth gap) in an attribution of the disparity in the admit rate. I argue, isn’t that more the reason to education people from those countries so that they (some not all) can help change that?

Not trying to make a pity party for Asian applicant, they should put together a compelling package. However, even when they put together a compelling package, they get their legs cut off because of diversity quota, that is inherently wrong.
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 29 Dec 2011, 08:03
Anasthaesium wrote:
cheetarah1980 wrote:

Hi PTK,
I was saying the critical reasoning was off in the assumption that since there is a smaller percentage of American applicants vs. international applicants then the American applicant pool is of lesser quality.

I do acknowledge that there is increased competition amongst Chinese and Indian applicants since they apply to b-schools in higher #s. And yes, the way to stand out amongst the competition is to improve things like English skills, essays, leadership, etc.


Relax, I think he was complementing your CR skills, not the other way. :)


LOL! I get it now. Jokes fly over my head at 2 a.m.....wait, does that make me unqualified for b-school? :lol:
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 29 Dec 2011, 09:08
Good conversation in here, I would just add that US applicants aren't singular, meaning, that many US applicants, although US citizens, come from very different ethnic backgrounds. There could be plenty of chinese and indian candidates that are also US citizens and don't fall under the international pool. I don't know it to be true, but just putting that out there.
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 29 Dec 2011, 10:10
Excellent discussion here. Asimov, a somewhat related topic is the case with green cards. Because there are so many more applicants from India and China and the US immigration system likes diversity (there's that word again!), Indians and Chinese have had to wait in insanely long lines to get their green card while ones from, say Uruguay, do not. Recently, a bill was passed by the House of Representatives to fix this.

Here's the NYT article on it:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/30/us/green-card-backlog-may-ease-for-some-from-china-and-india.html?_r=1&sq=green%20card%20india%20china&st=cse&adxnnl=1&scp=1&adxnnlx=1325181518-PXakeX1EjrrsZJFgSXzxJA

And some relevant text if you don't want to read the whole thing:

By far, the main beneficiaries will be highly skilled immigrants from India and China, including many with master’s degrees and doctorates in science and engineering. Because they come from populous countries that send many people to work here who have advanced science and technology skills, immigrants from those two nations had been forced by the country limits into lines that were many years long and growing much longer.

“This legislation makes sense,” Mr. Smith said before the vote. “Why should American employers who seek green cards for skilled foreign workers have to wait longer just because the workers are from India or China?”


So it looks like people do recognize the lack of scaling as a problem and are attempting to fix it - in the immigration system at least. Perhaps we'll see something similar in MBA schools a few years down the line?
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 29 Dec 2011, 10:16
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Goodbyeboy, your point is well taken I think but maybe work on the delivery? Statements like the one I highlight below tend to be inflammatory. I'd call them stereotypical but others might argue it does indeed border on racism (even if you are asian).

goodbyeboy wrote:

Have you ever stopped to wonder why I said I am able to look at this from insider's perspective? Everything I wrote on my previous post is true - that's what I went through when I was young. I was educated in 3 countries throughout my life and I think it's safe to say I know what I'm talking about since I experience all of them myself. Education and work culture in Asia is very different from one you might have experienced elsewhere. I don't know what your background is but most schools and workplaces in Asia discourage being different and creative. It's sad, but it's true. It may have created many people excel academically but for many of them they're mostly empty shell who lack important attributes and leadership skills that MBA schools look favorably upon. It shows on applications and schools notice. As I said, there's always an exception. Among all those academically-competitive applicants ones who will really shine are the ones that was able to grow and nurture their leadership skills and attributes through rigorous if not hellish studying for nearly 15 years. It's a difference in mindset and culture, and that's why I said you lack the experience and knowledge to make your assertions citing MLK and Gandhi - This is something you have to experience to understand.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 29 Dec 2011, 10:40
goodbyeboy wrote:
This has been a hot issue for a long time for schools especially in California. Many undergrad schools flat out admitted that they limit the admission pool for Asian students and look more fondly upon not-too-common applicants from European countries and other minority applicants.

It's upsetting for Asian tiger moms and students who worked their ass off to get their stuff to the top academically, and I understand where they come from. However, it makes sense for schools - they have to diversify their student bodies as much as possible. I personally wouldn't want to attend a school with a lack of diversity. Diversity is part of valuable MBA experience and I wouldn't trade it with anything. I wanna be in all-you-can eat buffet with all kind of meals from all over the world with $80000 receipt.

Also, if we look at the population of two countries - China and India, It really makes sense. Together they have about 4 billion people. More people = more candidates = more competitions. Then there's a language barrier, visa issue, employment etc etc.....schools don't want to deal with problems. They want students to get jobs and be successful. It also has to do with school's employment placement and rate. So many things come into play.

It might be unfair for Chinese/Indian applicants. But if they truly want their MBA and know exactly why they want them, and know how to articulate that on essays, they'll overcome that hurdle. Once the overcome that, they will be extremely valuable MBA candidates. No excuses necessary.


I second this. I can't speak for India, but for China, the career trajectory is very linear: get excellent grade, accepted into prestigious schools, graduated with honor and work for prestigious local firms, get promotions... you get the picture. The only definition of "success" is base solely on how well one performs academically. A person is measured based on definable metrics (score a 97 out of 100) and not soft skills (communication ability, leadership, inventiveness, work experience, volunteerism, etc). And it is with this same mindset many Chinese applicants have when they apply for bschools aboard. While their academic and numbers measure up, they usually have very little to offer when they are asked the question "How will you use the skills acquire in bschool to improve the world". Don't get me wrong, with enough training I think everyone can come up with a good enough token response to put on their essays, but in general they are not train to think in that way. The environment just isn't there to encourage such thinking, instead it is "good grade = success" and they go on to lead successful lives
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 29 Dec 2011, 11:23
I, too, have lived in 3 countries (one including an Asian country) but the generalization that "goodbyeboy" makes is ridiculous. Yes, there are differences in cultures between Asia and non-asian countries, but that doesn't mean there are few great leaders in Asia. Also, the issues in Asia is not isolated, but universal. I am definitely not so much of a fan of condescending statements that "goodbyeboy" made about Asia...

Anyways, going back to the topic. It is true that the % of Asian admits are going down. I am sure that the MBA schools have their reasons. I'd guess that their logic would be something like this: why get Rondo, when you already have CP3, Parker, Westbrook, D. Williams and D. Rose in your line up? I'd much rather get T. Duncan on my team with so many players at PG. Despite the age and lower stats, T. Duncan will be a better fit in my team than another great PG.
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 29 Dec 2011, 12:02
Asians in general are overrepresented in business school, both from a domestic and international standpoint.

America benefits when its best institutions admit primarily from its own population, preferring Americans over internationals. Universities abiding by this principle draw from the grassroots of the country and provide them the greatest share of the opportunities that their collective generational hard work has wrought. With a population of around 300 million it is hard to see America maintaining a competitive edge over growing economies who have a combined 2+ billion population. The numbers just don't stack up well for Americans this coming century and universities already know that.

No one wants to see our best schools become backward international silos removed from mainstream America. Such a school would be commonplace in Dubai, not here. If you have a problem with American hiring and educating American, you should speak to the Chinese and Indian who the same thing with their own populations.

In my opinion international students should feel privileged for the spots they get, for every every such spot takes away from an American. The Chinese have our debt and manufacturing, the Indians have our IT and manufacturing; the only thing separating us from them is our research know-how and great higher educational institutions, two competitive advantages that could quickly evaporate if we give them away to the highest international bidder much like we've already done with our debt, IT and manufacturing. If all our companies returned to America, they would make less profit but we would have more jobs.

I'm tired of these globalists bankrupting our country with this "everybody wins" bullshit. Such demagogic "this isn't a one zero sum game" platitudes worked when we tipped the scales in our favor like the Chinese are doing now with manipulated currency, corporate espionage and low wages. It only worked when we were one of the few nations with running water. Now more people have running water and we've stopped being protectionist, so things have changed and we need to change with them:

75% of admitted students should be American and plan to live in America for at least 10 years. Given our highly educated populace, we can manage a high quality body with much problem. 1 in 4 internationals in more than enough to reap the benefits of their diversity and life experience.

Last edited by Luffy on 29 Dec 2011, 12:40, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink] New post 29 Dec 2011, 12:21
healthcareguy wrote:
Goodbyeboy, your point is well taken I think but maybe work on the delivery? Statements like the one I highlight below tend to be inflammatory. I'd call them stereotypical but others might argue it does indeed border on racism (even if you are asian).

goodbyeboy wrote:

Have you ever stopped to wonder why I said I am able to look at this from insider's perspective? Everything I wrote on my previous post is true - that's what I went through when I was young. I was educated in 3 countries throughout my life and I think it's safe to say I know what I'm talking about since I experience all of them myself. Education and work culture in Asia is very different from one you might have experienced elsewhere. I don't know what your background is but most schools and workplaces in Asia discourage being different and creative. It's sad, but it's true. It may have created many people excel academically but for many of them they're mostly empty shell who lack important attributes and leadership skills that MBA schools look favorably upon. It shows on applications and schools notice. As I said, there's always an exception. Among all those academically-competitive applicants ones who will really shine are the ones that was able to grow and nurture their leadership skills and attributes through rigorous if not hellish studying for nearly 15 years. It's a difference in mindset and culture, and that's why I said you lack the experience and knowledge to make your assertions citing MLK and Gandhi - This is something you have to experience to understand.



Reading what I posted I realize that I could have worded my sentences better to avoid any misunderstandings. However, the core fundamental problems stay true and again this isn't something that can be easily understood from outside.

but for many of them they're mostly empty shell who lack important attributes and leadership skills - let me clarify what I mean by this. The education diversity in here is close to none. They are forced to take almost same classes and study for literally 20 hours a day for entire school years not because they desired it but they were "told" what to do by their tiger moms and schools. They are told from the beginning that that's the "road" to success - good grades, good university, good jobs and good "specs". Most of the students aren't given options to pursue what they want, in most cases they don't even know what they want, because they weren't given options at the first place.

It's extremely difficult to find opportunities to nurture leadership skills and important personal attributes while handling all this. It will drain most of them out and I don't blame them. This culture translates up to the industry where most will struggle to find jobs even with their high grades and "specs". Most of them don't have clear career goals and they get lost during the process because they were literally brainwashed from the beginning. Turns out that everyone is just as competitive and smart. Population & competition keeps growing and spaces are still limited. Sounds familiar? Yep - MBA.

So they look abroad to strengthen their spec and the first thing they consider is pursuing an MBA, but not because they have clear goals and know why they want to pursue MBA degree but just to put MBA brand on their resume, thinking that will bring them "success." Well, unfortunately, inside their colorful grades and resumes, their vulnerability shows up on essays, E/C, recommendations etc.

However, as I mentioned before, there will be exceptions. There are many who go through that hellish phase and still stand out and find opportunities to nurture their leadership skills and personal attributes, and they're the ones that business schools want and look for. I've seen them before and getting accepted to schools of their dreams. That's why I said they become the most valuable MBA candidates once they jump that hurdle by proving adcoms that yes, they are indeed different from thousands of other applicants they see every year. Wouldn't they be the ones you want to study with? I certainly would.

Again I understand that the way I worded certain sentences could cause misunderstanding. However, I will simply ignore blunt calls claiming I made racist comments etc - read what I wrote carefully before jumping ship and making such a harsh assertion. Schools are not in any way obligated to open more spaces just because the competition is getting more fierce - in fact, they should do quite the opposite to make sure they filter and pick good candidates from those competitive regions.

Sadly, stereotypes exist for a reason and it will work as disadvantage for many applicants, including myself. However, it's your responsibility as an applicant to break that spell on your application to prove adcoms that you are indeed a different deal. If you have no ability to do that, maybe you're not ready for your MBA yet.
Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it   [#permalink] 29 Dec 2011, 12:21
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