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GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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Originally posted by dabral on 11 Apr 2017, 07:57.
Last edited by dabral on 18 Aug 2023, 18:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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TDK82 wrote:
I recently took exam 6 from EP2...

In verbal, only missed 4 questions (9,18,37,41) but got only V42...Is it possible that EP2 didn't have enough hard questions to try me for V43/44?

I feel exam 5 (from EP2) exhausted many hard questions...in exam 5 I got V41 even after missing as many as 12 questions (wrongs clustered in the middle and end)...

So probably the first exam from each pack is a better judge and more realistic database of questions...with enough hard arsenal...?


Yes, agreed. The problem is that Exam Packs 1 (Tests 3-4) and Exam Pack 2 (Tests 5-6) draw from the same pool of questions for both tests. If you are a high scorer, then it's likely that you will exhaust many of the hardest questions on the 1st test in the set, since there are only 400 questions in the pool, compared to about 1,500 total questions for the Default Exam Pack that includes tests 1 and 2.

To avoid this problem, you could reset the tests...but then you might see repeat questions.

-Brian

Originally posted by mcelroytutoring on 08 May 2017, 08:08.
Last edited by mcelroytutoring on 08 May 2017, 08:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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kivalo wrote:


V37: Did not answer last question (SC).


One question difference, 4 points lower total Verbal score! Yes, it's clear that there is a penalty for not finishing. However, you did get one additional question correct as well, which explains some (but not all) of the difference in your composite Verbal score.

Originally posted by mcelroytutoring on 08 May 2017, 08:10.
Last edited by mcelroytutoring on 30 Jul 2017, 15:50, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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lavya07 wrote:
As I can see this post is 4 years old. Are the scenarios still accurate enough?


These scenarios are still accurate for the tests included in the free GMATPrep software, which has not changed much over the last 4 years. The problem is that the GMATPrep software does not use the exact same algorithm as does the real GMAT. Thus, there is no way to know for sure whether these GMATPrep results will be duplicated on the actual test.
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
Hey guys!! First of all, thanks for the amazing work you’ve been doing.

Is it possible to test these scenarios with the new exam pack released by Gmac????
Browsing in this forum (and others) I’ve seen that people have experienced scores not in line with the scenarios in this thread. And most importantly, it looks like they’ve had more problems with the second test they’ve taken; that is, lower scores with more questions answered correctly ( I know the importance of the order in the algorithm). As if the questions pool isn’t big enough to sustain two tests at high scores.
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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Mator wrote:
Hey guys!! First of all, thanks for the amazing work you’ve been doing.

Is it possible to test these scenarios with the new exam pack released by Gmac????
Browsing in this forum (and others) I’ve seen that people have experienced scores not in line with the scenarios in this thread. And most importantly, it looks like they’ve had more problems with the second test they’ve taken; that is, lower scores with more questions answered correctly ( I know the importance of the order in the algorithm). As if the questions pool isn’t big enough to sustain two tests at high scores.


Yes, it is possible but not necessary since the exam packs do not carry a new scoring algorithm and simply work within the existing scoring system.
Moreover, Exam Packs do not have many questions in them (they have only about 1/5th or 1/10th of what GMAT Prep has, thus their accuracy is lower)
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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dabral wrote:
I know for sure that on Quant you do not need to answer 100% of the questions right to get Q51. I have missed problems on the real GMAT and still got a Q51. And on GMATPrep, one can miss 6 questions and still get a Q51. I don't know how it is on the Verbal section of the GMAT, but my guess would be that it would be the same.


I was just reading through this thread for the first time in years, and saw this. In case you're curious, I'm fairly sure it's impossible to get a V51 with even a single wrong answer (ignoring experimental questions), and on GMATPrep tests, with one mistake I've either seen V49 or V50 scores, and with two mistakes I've seen V47 or V48 scores.

It's best to think of the Q51 level as analogous to the V45 or V46 level, which is where the percentiles line up (or at least did, before the Quant percentiles got skewed). There's a 'top end' on the Verbal scale that doesn't exist in Quant, and you need a near-perfect performance to get into that top end. And there's another factor at work - it's also almost certainly true that the hardest Quant questions are harder than the hardest Verbal questions, which means a mistake on a hard Verbal question hurts your chances at an extremely high score a bit more than a mistake on a hard Quant question would.

And I just tried to give kudos to your post above, warning test takers not to obsess too much about the first ten questions, but the kudos system doesn't seem to be working, so I'll just express my support here. :)
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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mipek wrote:

I think that the algorithm has multiple time variables, i.e. the time spent per question, in addition to whether you get the question right or wrong, determine the difficulty level of your next question, and next question and so on.

Moreover, the score given per section takes into account not only right and wrong answers per difficulty level, but also the average time spent per question and difficulty level, and how many minutes before the clock runs out you finish the section.


This is very definitely not true. The scoring algorithm takes no notice whatsoever of the time you took to answer a question.

mcelroytutoring wrote:
The problem is that the GMATPrep software does not use the exact same algorithm as does the real GMAT.


This is also not true, unless you're talking about technicalities. GMATPrep and the real GMAT both use a 3-parameter IRT-based algorithm.
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GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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Originally posted by dabral on 29 Jul 2017, 13:32.
Last edited by dabral on 18 Aug 2023, 18:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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Anyone who claims to know the exact specifics of the GMAT algorithm (and corresponding score conversions) vs. the GMAT Prep algorithm (and corresponding score conversions) is either lying, or in serious breach of a GMAC confidentiality agreement.

These GMATPrep software simulations are extremely helpful in getting to know the test in a general sense, but the fact of the matter is that we are comparing apples to oranges: the real GMAT (23 experimental questions) operates much differently than GMAT Prep (0 experimental questions). For example, you could never get the last 10 questions wrong on the Quant section of the real GMAT and hope to score a Q50.

Originally posted by mcelroytutoring on 30 Jul 2017, 11:01.
Last edited by mcelroytutoring on 14 Dec 2017, 12:41, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
dabral wrote:
Hi Yashkumar,

If you have clicked on one of the radio buttons and the time runs out, the software will choose that as the answer submitted. It will consider that you have indeed answered the last question.

I do this myself at the end of the test. I will click on any of the answer choices and start working on the question. Once I have my answer, then I will change the choice and press submit. This way if you run out of time, at least the question will be considered answered(even if you are wrong) and there will be no penalty for not completing the section.

Cheers,
Dabral


Hi dabral,

Here is @BB's post stating that this rule is not true anymore. candidate has to submit the choice for final question.
https://gmatclub.com/forum/gmatclub-tests-245692.html#p1896457

I am wondering if this could be confirmed from some official source. Tried to search for it but no NEW official confirmation found.
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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HKD1710 wrote:
dabral wrote:
Hi Yashkumar,

If you have clicked on one of the radio buttons and the time runs out, the software will choose that as the answer submitted. It will consider that you have indeed answered the last question.

I do this myself at the end of the test. I will click on any of the answer choices and start working on the question. Once I have my answer, then I will change the choice and press submit. This way if you run out of time, at least the question will be considered answered(even if you are wrong) and there will be no penalty for not completing the section.

Cheers,
Dabral


Hi dabral,

Here is @BB's post stating that this rule is not true anymore. candidate has to submit the choice for final question.
https://gmatclub.com/forum/gmatclub-tests-245692.html#p1896457

I am wondering if this could be confirmed from some official source. Tried to search for it but no NEW official confirmation found.


The GMAC has provided conflicting and ambiguous answers to this question in the past. The lesson here: to play it safe, always confirm your final answer before time expires.

Originally posted by mcelroytutoring on 30 Jul 2017, 12:14.
Last edited by mcelroytutoring on 30 Jul 2017, 15:45, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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IanStewart wrote:
mcelroytutoring wrote:
Anyone who claims to know the exact specifics of the GMAT algorithm (and corresponding score conversions) vs. the GMAT Prep algorithm (and corresponding score conversions) is either lying, or in serious breach of a GMAC confidentiality agreement.


I gather this is directed at me. I don't know where you've gotten your information about the scoring algorithm, but you are misinformed on some important questions.

It is true, in a literal sense, that some of the algorithm is secret. If someone is administering an IRT-based test, there are certain parameters he or she can freely set without affecting the integrity of the test. Only the designers of the GMAT would know how they've set those parameters. But those are really just technical details. The mathematical basis of the algorithm, which is what is important, is well-known. The GMAT uses a three-parameter IRT model, a fact confirmed in many official research reports. I invite you to research that on your own if you are unsure if what I am saying is true, but someone repeating that is neither lying nor in breach of any confidentiality agreement.

The important information that is not public knowledge, and which you would absolutely need to reverse engineer your score from your responses on a GMATPrep or real GMAT test, are the statistics associated with each test question - the difficulty, discrimination and guessing parameter values. Because those question statistics will vary from test to test, a particular response pattern (right/wrong/right/wrong/etc, for example) will typically produce different scores each time. But those statistics have nothing to do with the underlying algorithm, in the same way that the difficulty levels of questions on a traditional multiple choice test, where your grade is the percentage of questions you answer correctly, have nothing to do with how the test is graded. The GMAT's underlying algorithm is just based on probability theory.

I've read dozens of academic papers in this area, and have programmed an IRT-based algorithm using the same model as the GMAT, so while I'm not a specialist in this area, (anyone doing a graduate degree in the field would know more about it than I do) I do know something about it.


I'm not disputing what you're saying: that the GMAT algorithm is based on a 3-parameter IRT model. What I am saying (and which you have already acknowledged) is that the GMAT algorithm is much more complex than the general model on which it is based--with secret, specific settings on the parameters that are only known by a select few who work for GMAC--and that it differs significantly from the GMAT Prep algorithm, partially because of the presence of 25.6% experimental questions on the real GMAT, vs 0% experimental on the GMATPrep tests.

I challenge you to find an ESR from a student who got the first 27 questions right on Quant, and the last 10 questions wrong, and earned a 50/51. It's never going to happen on a real GMAT. Yet that's exactly what happened on the (very helpful, but not totally accurate) GMATPrep simulations done by Bunuel.

-Brian

Originally posted by mcelroytutoring on 30 Jul 2017, 16:04.
Last edited by mcelroytutoring on 28 May 2018, 17:57, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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IanStewart wrote:
It is true, in a literal sense, that some of the algorithm is secret. If someone is administering an IRT-based test, there are certain parameters he or she can freely set without affecting the integrity of the test. Only the designers of the GMAT would know how they've set those parameters. But those are really just technical details. The mathematical basis of the algorithm, which is what is important, is well-known. The GMAT uses a three-parameter IRT model, a fact confirmed in many official research reports. I invite you to research that on your own if you are unsure if what I am saying is true, but someone repeating that is neither lying nor in breach of any confidentiality agreement.
I agree. I would also urge test takers to read up on some (basic) IRT before choosing a course of action based on some of the advice on this thread.
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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To put it more simply: category does not indicate specifics. Just because I have two pieces of fruit in my cart doesn't mean that they are both apples. And just because the GMATPrep tests and the real GMAT use the same *type* of algorithm does not mean that their precise algorithms are exactly the same. The results I've seen from real GMATs simply don't support that assertion. But yes, the real GMAT does behave in a similar way to the GMAT Prep tests, with some important differences, such as the example I mentioned above.

Originally posted by mcelroytutoring on 30 Jul 2017, 20:00.
Last edited by mcelroytutoring on 14 Dec 2017, 12:40, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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I'm not going to split hairs between "different" and "much different," or get into the semantics of algorithms vs. their associated parameters. My point remains: The real GMAT and the GMATPrep software use the same *type* of algorithm, but due to various other differences, the real GMAT most decidedly does not behave the same way as does GMATPrep, particularly with regard to scoring, question difficulty, and the number of experimental questions.

Agree to disagree, but I apologize if you think that I've mischaracterized your comments--I certainly know the feeling.

"To be great is to be misunderstood."
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Originally posted by mcelroytutoring on 31 Jul 2017, 13:29.
Last edited by mcelroytutoring on 14 Dec 2017, 12:40, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
Hi guys,

I took two GMAT Prep Exam and found 6-8 of first 11 Verbal questions are RC.

Is that pattern consistent in real GMAT Exam?
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Re: GMAT Prep Software Analysis and What If Scenarios [#permalink]
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