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GMAT Verbal & TOEFL

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GMAT Verbal & TOEFL [#permalink] New post 03 Mar 2009, 07:32
Hello all

Out of curiosity I was wondering why do adcoms ask for a TOEFL when you already have GMAT verbal scores.

Any ideas?
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Re: GMAT Verbal & TOEFL [#permalink] New post 03 Mar 2009, 07:34
I've never taken TOEFL (native English speaker), but I imagine it's for the reading/speaking parts.
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Re: GMAT Verbal & TOEFL [#permalink] New post 03 Mar 2009, 07:38
scorpioguy wrote:
Hello all

Out of curiosity I was wondering why do adcoms ask for a TOEFL when you already have GMAT verbal scores.

Any ideas?


Because the GMAT is not a proficiency test. I know many people who do well in the Verbal and still do not have good control of English.

I'd say that especially the current test (iBT) with the speaking and interactive parts, TOEFL tests much better proficiency than it did with the previous versions (CBT and PBT).

Your question is valid though, I remember that MIT doesn't ask for the TOEFL, I sent them anyway...
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Re: GMAT Verbal & TOEFL [#permalink] New post 03 Mar 2009, 19:17
What about people who flunked Verbal but aced TOEFL? I scored several points shy of perfect score in iBT but only got 30ish on verbal (30-34 range when I took it). I wonder how the adcom will view this
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Re: GMAT Verbal & TOEFL [#permalink] New post 03 Mar 2009, 22:44
ozzie123 wrote:
What about people who flunked Verbal but aced TOEFL? I scored several points shy of perfect score in iBT but only got 30ish on verbal (30-34 range when I took it). I wonder how the adcom will view this


I don't think they use the verbal part of GMAT to gauge your command of the English level. As my GMAT instructor said, GMAT is a test IN the English language, not OF the English language. It tests various skills supposedly relevant to being a manager/business administrator through use of questions in English.

TOEFL is a test of how well you speak/read/write in English. It does not test other skills (or is not supposed to) and its score is supposed to only reflect how well you control the language. As such, most schools set a minimum score they are willing to admit, and from there on view the exam as pass fail.

Therefore, I think it is unlikely that a good TOEFL score could offset a verbal score on the GMAT
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Re: GMAT Verbal & TOEFL [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2009, 00:06
Expert's post
Gil wrote:
ozzie123 wrote:
What about people who flunked Verbal but aced TOEFL? I scored several points shy of perfect score in iBT but only got 30ish on verbal (30-34 range when I took it). I wonder how the adcom will view this


I don't think they use the verbal part of GMAT to gauge your command of the English level. As my GMAT instructor said, GMAT is a test IN the English language, not OF the English language. It tests various skills supposedly relevant to being a manager/business administrator through use of questions in English.

TOEFL is a test of how well you speak/read/write in English. It does not test other skills (or is not supposed to) and its score is supposed to only reflect how well you control the language. As such, most schools set a minimum score they are willing to admit, and from there on view the exam as pass fail.

Therefore, I think it is unlikely that a good TOEFL score could offset a verbal score on the GMAT


Agree! GMAT Verbal tests your ability to think and read critically (CR, RC), and even SC tests sometimes your thinking ability rather than pure grammar.
At the same time current iBT almost perfectly test your ability to control language but not your reasoning skills. IN/OF is a good explanation.
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Re: GMAT Verbal & TOEFL [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2009, 05:05
I might be drifting here, but curious to know which schools do not require TOEFL scores, for non-native speakers.

Most (not all) of the Top 10 US MBA schools (US News), waive TOEFL scores...am I right in assuming?
Stanford clearly mentions this on their website

Any other schools?
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TOEFL waiver is auto-granted if a candidate scores V 90% GMA [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2009, 07:07
I think many schools including several top schools will waive your TOEFL if you scored high in Verbal GMAT. Cannot remember now all the schools that i saw, but I am sure you can google them. Check out this FAQ from vanderbilt's website.



http://owen.vanderbilt.edu/vanderbilt/P ... sions-faq/

Q: Is there a way for international students to waive the TOEFL or IELTS?
You may contact our office to request a TOEFL waiver if you (1) have earned an undergraduate degree in a country where the official language is English (not just an English-speaking institution or just a country where English is spoken), or (2) have lived and worked in an English-speaking country for the past two or more years. A TOEFL waiver is automatically granted if a candidate scores 90% or higher on the verbal component of the GMAT. If you last took the test more than two years prior to the date of application, you must take it again, because results are valid for only two years.

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Re: GMAT Verbal & TOEFL [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2009, 07:47
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I am glad it is changing. Back in 2002, every school required TOEFL, but if you were any good on the verbal GMAT part, TOEFL was a very easy test to pass. I spent just a day or two prepping for it and aced it, so it was not so much a test to be nervous about, but rather a nuance.

I would agree with everyone that GMAT does not measure proficiency but it would be pretty darn hard to get a good GMAT score and a bad TOEFL one.

On the flip side, I had a few classmates in both schools I attended to (one semester exchange) who barely could express themselves in English - how they got in - I have no idea. They were impressive guys (older) but I just could not talk to hem.... :roll:
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Re: TOEFL waiver is auto-granted if a candidate scores V 90% GMA [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2009, 08:02
spiridon wrote:
Q: Is there a way for international students to waive the TOEFL or IELTS?
You may contact our office to request a TOEFL waiver if you (1) have earned an undergraduate degree in a country where the official language is English (not just an English-speaking institution or just a country where English is spoken), or (2) have lived and worked in an English-speaking country for the past two or more years. A TOEFL waiver is automatically granted if a candidate scores 90% or higher on the verbal component of the GMAT. If you last took the test more than two years prior to the date of application, you must take it again, because results are valid for only two years.


I think even most schools that don't waive based on GMAT verbal will waive based on having a degree from a school where English is the language of instruction.

Interesting that Vanderbilt requires the school be in a country where English is the "official" language rather than just an English speaking institution. Technically that would exclude any US school, since there is no "official" language in the US.
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Re: TOEFL waiver is auto-granted if a candidate scores V 90% GMA [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2009, 08:14
Jerz wrote:
Interesting that Vanderbilt requires the school be in a country where English is the "official" language rather than just an English speaking institution. Technically that would exclude any US school, since there is no "official" language in the US.

:lol: :lol:

I would like to see how I would do on TOEFL.
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Re: TOEFL waiver is auto-granted if a candidate scores V 90% GMA [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2009, 08:41
If you graduated from an accredited undergrad institution you had to pass TOEFL prior to enrollment as well and to take several english classes afterwards.

I am wondering if there are any accredited universitities in the US where lectures are commenced entirely in Spanish and if any of those students (assuming that some of them are not proficient in eng) have to take TOEFL even tho they are US citizens.
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Re: GMAT Verbal & TOEFL [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2009, 09:04
Expert's post
bb wrote:
.... but it would be pretty darn hard to get a good GMAT score and a bad TOEFL one.....


You know my GMAT but it was pretty difficult for me to get my 108/120 score in iBT. Why? The reason was simple: I think speaking section is the worst section in TOEFL. It requires to speak on mainly student's topics after 15sec preparation and over 45 sec. For me, it was hard to speak on these topics under 45 sec even in native languages as it was actual for me 10 years ago ;) So, my last score was 29/30 (reading, very easy after GMAT), 29/30 (listening, easy after listening Podcasts on my iPod), 28/30 (writing, not so difficult) and 22/30 (speaking, almost no improvements after 6 months preparation!). The same problem namely in speaking section had almost all my non-native friends who didn't use English in everyday communications.
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Re: TOEFL waiver is auto-granted if a candidate scores V 90% GMA [#permalink] New post 06 Mar 2009, 04:27
Another factor that a school looks at to determine whether you need a TOEFL score is your work experience in an english speaking country.

For example: I am from India and have been working in USA for close to 10 yrs. When I called adcoms and mentioned this they said that a TOEFL is not required and I could mention my absence of TOEFL / US work experience in my optional essay.

spiridon wrote:
I think many schools including several top schools will waive your TOEFL if you scored high in Verbal GMAT. Cannot remember now all the schools that i saw, but I am sure you can google them. Check out this FAQ from vanderbilt's website.



http://owen.vanderbilt.edu/vanderbilt/P ... sions-faq/

Q: Is there a way for international students to waive the TOEFL or IELTS?
You may contact our office to request a TOEFL waiver if you (1) have earned an undergraduate degree in a country where the official language is English (not just an English-speaking institution or just a country where English is spoken), or (2) have lived and worked in an English-speaking country for the past two or more years. A TOEFL waiver is automatically granted if a candidate scores 90% or higher on the verbal component of the GMAT. If you last took the test more than two years prior to the date of application, you must take it again, because results are valid for only two years.
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Re: TOEFL waiver is auto-granted if a candidate scores V 90% GMA [#permalink] New post 06 Mar 2009, 22:33
rca215 wrote:
Jerz wrote:
Interesting that Vanderbilt requires the school be in a country where English is the "official" language rather than just an English speaking institution. Technically that would exclude any US school, since there is no "official" language in the US.

:lol: :lol:

I would like to see how I would do on TOEFL.



Lets put it this way - I got a 119 out of 120 after doing one practice test and I had been out of the US for 10 years. If you're really curious - give it a shot:

http://www.graduateshotline.com/sampletoefl.html

Looking at the questions in the sample test I am truly dumbfounded at how I lost that one point...
Re: TOEFL waiver is auto-granted if a candidate scores V 90% GMA   [#permalink] 06 Mar 2009, 22:33
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