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H/W/S selection criteria

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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 06:50
Solaris1- regarding the WSJ rankings, let me give you an anecdote. Last year, Ross, a school that usually ends up in the top 3 in the WSJ rankings fell down to #7 (I think). As I am very interested in the school, asked a friend of mine who is a student there if he could explain the drop. And said that the drop is because that Ross grads in great demand and hence tend to have multiple offers. So once you reject the other offers, the recruiters are upset and hence the rankings tend to tank. So, if this logic is true- then that could explain why H and S and in fact most of the top schools do pretty poorly in the WSJ rankings.

Regarding the reputation part- yep, Indians are probably drawn more towards the image/brand thing. But I dont blame them. As I said, the whole fit thing to me (and I feel to most Indians) is a little overblown. I based my statement on the applicants here on gmatclub. Take Kry for example- the dude loves and adores Stanford and am pretty sure he would be the same even if it were ranked 15th.





solaris1 wrote:
dosa_don wrote:
Well you have a valid point about people who apply to schools based on reputation alone. BUT- honestly, that percentage is very small.

And it does not seem like recruiters are seeing the same thing you are as H and S are still at the top of the recruiting lists.


I think the converse is actually true, dosa. Most applicants to H/S/W DO apply based on reputation alone, and especially so in the Indian context because of a host of cultural perceptions.

You find me enough Indians who are applying to H/S/W on the basis of fit or something else abstract apart from reputation (account for possible exceptions, as always) and I'll change my mind...but until then :)

And I don't know how much faith you put in the WSJ ranking methodology, but clearly there are recruiters who aren't happy with H and S grads. So there may be some statistical evidence to back up what Darden is saying, H/S/W isn't an automatic ticket to success. Like riverripper said, it's a perfectly good idea to be the 'big fish' in a small pond.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 07:24
Darden2010 wrote:

I feel sorry for people that apply to schools just because of reputation and just because from 'some' schools it is easier to get your dream job. If you are a 'star' you will prove your case no matter which top 10 school you go to. The only way to excel in life is to do somethig that you love, if you don't love your school and the life you have at your school you will not be at your top game during recruiting process. The level of satisfaction that you have from your life shows on your face, you won't be able to hide it and recruiters (like everyone else) like people that radiate positive energy.



Big school or small, if that is what you are going to B-School for, what is wrong if someone wants to make it much easier?

Also, not everyone has a dream 'job', at least I do not have one.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 07:47
dosa_don wrote:
Take Kry for example- the dude loves and adores Stanford and am pretty sure he would be the same even if it were ranked 15th.


Kry went there for engineering so he already has an attachment to the school. I am sure thats common for a lot of schools, people who want to Chicago want GSB, NW want Kellogg, if you really enjoyed your undergrad then you already know that you like the school so its a safer bet that you will enjoy it than another school.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 07:51
Came across this: http://bwnt.businessweek.com/alumni/compare.asp?group_type=s

Have idea how accurate this is but, there seems to be a significant difference between HS alums and the rest 15 yrs down the line. Again, this is a FYI and I have not even applied to those schools.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 08:02
Yep- and my point is that he applied there not because of brand name but for whatever be the reason. In fact, I believe he also studied at UCB. He has said that he might choose Haas over Kellogg.


riverripper wrote:
dosa_don wrote:
Take Kry for example- the dude loves and adores Stanford and am pretty sure he would be the same even if it were ranked 15th.


Kry went there for engineering so he already has an attachment to the school. I am sure thats common for a lot of schools, people who want to Chicago want GSB, NW want Kellogg, if you really enjoyed your undergrad then you already know that you like the school so its a safer bet that you will enjoy it than another school.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 08:06
I think we need to establish whether the jobs one is able to get after an MBA are more a function of one's prior experiences or one's MBA "pedigree." Are these Harvard grads making that much more money simply because they were already well on their way to the top of the corporate ladder before starting business school, or because they have Harvard on their resume?

And interestingly, according to that BusinessWeek survey Johnson, Kellogg and Simon grads of the Class of '92 are all earning significantly more than Wharton grads.

What does that tell you? IMO, absolutely nothing!

dosa_don wrote:
Came across this: http://bwnt.businessweek.com/alumni/compare.asp?group_type=s

Have idea how accurate this is but, there seems to be a significant difference between HS alums and the rest 15 yrs down the line. Again, this is a FYI and I have not even applied to those schools.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 08:08
That is a good little calculator/comparer...


Interesting stuff.. again, not sure how accurate it is, but still.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 08:19
dosa_don wrote:
Came across this: http://bwnt.businessweek.com/alumni/compare.asp?group_type=s

Have idea how accurate this is but, there seems to be a significant difference between HS alums and the rest 15 yrs down the line. Again, this is a FYI and I have not even applied to those schools.


Amazing how low the Ross grads (financially) are compared to Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, UCLA, Virginia. Ross got edged slightly by Cornell and barely beat my undergrad, the University of Washington. Wonder whats up with that.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 08:30
Wonder what Ross's rank was 15 yrs back? If it was not ranked that high back then, it could explain to some extent.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 08:32
solaris1 wrote:
I think we need to establish whether the jobs one is able to get after an MBA are more a function of one's prior experiences or one's MBA "pedigree." Are these Harvard grads making that much more money simply because they were already well on their way to the top of the corporate ladder before starting business school, or because they have Harvard on their resume?


Interesting. See the assumption that you are making for Harvard grads here? You said that Harvard grads make "that much more money" and perhaps that is because of their experiences/achievements. It appears that everybody (Including us, who are supposed to be in the know) assumes that if someone is from Harvard, he/she must have been a terrific achiever. Will this general image of Harvard grads help them in their future? You tell me.

I will say this again, do not judge other's school selections, people! If we really want, we can pick just ANY person on this forum .. yes, ANYBODY .. and shred his/her school selections into pieces.

riverripper wrote:
putting all your eggs into such a risky basket is bordering on silly.


I usually tend to agree with what river says. But I don't agree with him here. If one person chose to apply only to H/S, then that doesn't mean that all of his eggs are in one basket. There are other eggs and there are other baskets in his career .. they perhaps just don't go through MBA. He calculated (Maybe through his contacts, maybe through his visits and maybe just through the USNEWS rankings) that it was better for him to continue his career if he didn't get into H/S. We don't know about that person enough to call this approach "silly". I also made the mistake of judging nervousgmat's R2 applications (Since she had an admit already). I wish I hadn't done that. The difference between BW forum and this place is that we just help .. we don't judge. Let's keep it this way.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 08:33
dosa_don wrote:
Wonder what Ross's rank was 15 yrs back? If it was not ranked that high back then, it could explain to some extent.


Or if more Ross grads remained in the midwest after graduation, unlike today.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 08:35
mNeo wrote:
Interesting. See the assumption that you are making for Harvard grads here? You said that Harvard grads make "that much more money" and perhaps that is because of their experiences/pedigree. It appears that everybody (Including us, who are supposed to be in the know) assumes that if someone is from Harvard, he/she must have been a terrific achiever. Will this general image of Harvard grads help them in their future? You tell me.


'that much more money' was in reference to the B-week survey dosa posted, Harvard grads from the Class of '92 appear to be making nearly 600k after bonuses etc., way higher apparently than some of the other schools. I was not making any assumptions.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 08:36
Good point bherronp.

bherronp wrote:
dosa_don wrote:
Wonder what Ross's rank was 15 yrs back? If it was not ranked that high back then, it could explain to some extent.


Or if more Ross grads remained in the midwest after graduation, unlike today.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 08:39
solaris1 wrote:
'that much more money' was in reference to the B-week survey dosa posted, Harvard grads from the Class of '92 appear to be making nearly 600k after bonuses etc., way higher apparently than some of the other schools. I was not making any assumptions.


Sorry, I should have been more clear. I didn't say that you assumed that Harvard grads make more money. I was focusing on the following statement of yours:

Are these Harvard grads making that much more money simply because they were already well on their way to the top of the corporate ladder before starting business school?
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 08:41
mNeo wrote:
solaris1 wrote:
I think we need to establish whether the jobs one is able to get after an MBA are more a function of one's prior experiences or one's MBA "pedigree." Are these Harvard grads making that much more money simply because they were already well on their way to the top of the corporate ladder before starting business school, or because they have Harvard on their resume?


Interesting. See the assumption that you are making for Harvard grads here? You said that Harvard grads make "that much more money" and perhaps that is because of their experiences/pedigree. It appears that everybody (Including us, who are supposed to be in the know) assumes that if someone is from Harvard, he/she must have been a terrific achiever. Will this general image of Harvard grads help them in their future? You tell me.

I will say this again, do not judge other's school selections, people! If we really want, we can pick just ANY person on this forum .. yes, ANYBODY .. and shred his/her school selections into pieces.

riverripper wrote:
putting all your eggs into such a risky basket is bordering on silly.


I usually tend to agree with what river says. But I don't agree with him here. If one person chose to apply only to H/S, then that doesn't mean that all of his eggs are in one basket. There are other eggs and there are other baskets in his career .. they perhaps just don't go through MBA. He calculated (Maybe through his contacts, maybe through his visits and maybe just through the USNEWS rankings) that it was better for him to continue his career if he didn't get into H/S. We don't know about that person enough to call this approach "silly".


Well, I can provide an example here. I am not looking forward to get recruited from school. Now I applied only to Stanford, since after my research I found electives and programs matching my intended field, a professor who is an authority in exactly what I want to do and Stanford alumuni at the right places where I need contacts. So it only makes sense for me to try for Stanford, if I am risking (seriously) 2 years of my life. My plan is that if I do not go to Stanford, I will study part time at Fuqua, since I live and work at a commutable (4 hours) distance from there. For me, there are 2 tiers, Stanford and every other school.

And I agree I started my B-school process like a reputation crazy person, do I need to say anything beyond my id? Yes, just one more, I did not know there is a famous B School named Stanford GSB until 5 months back.

Last edited by hbs.aspirant on 25 Jan 2008, 08:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 08:45
mNeo wrote:
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I didn't say that you assumed that Harvard grads made more money. I was focusing on the following statement of yours:

Are these Harvard grads making that much more money simply because they were already well on their way to the top of the corporate ladder before starting business school?


Yes, and what I was trying to get across was whether Harvard had any role to play in the fact that they are making 600k 15 years after graduating. If they were indeed a rising star in the corporate world in 1992, it's entirely possible that in 15 years they would be where they are even without Harvard.

This is an awesome discussion, one sees things through so many perspectives. Hopefully this is the kind of debate that's also encouraged in business schools.
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 08:46
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As one of those who applied to the H/S/W triumvirate, I feel compelled to comment.

As I've made clear in other threads and posts, I'm not from a typical pre-MBA background, and I'm not looking for a banking/consulting job. So my reasons for applying to the schools I did are specific to me and my goals. That's the way it should be.

I'll go through H/S/W one school at a time and describe why I applied to each.

Wharton- The most outwardly obvious choice of the three for anyone interested in medical devices and biotech. The top health management program around, with terrific connections to industry.

Stanford- No organized health care management program. But an amazing atmosphere of collaboration between the business, medical, engineering, and law schools as well as a terrific entrepreneurial program. If you have a moment, take a look at the Biodesign Innovation site:
http://biodesign.stanford.edu/bdn/index.jsp
If I may borrow a phrase from Snoop, that's off the hizzle.

Harvard- A relatively new Health Care Initiative that's still finding its way. But keep in mind, it's linked to the #1 medical school in the world. I have friends in this program, and they're having amazing experiences.

Those are the career-specific reasons I applied to those schools. Outside of these reasons, I'm fully aware that I might change my mind when I get to business school. Why wouldn't I want to provide myself with the broadest set of options available? Any of these schools would give me an outstanding education, with ready exits into consulting or banking. And if I got interested in VC or (who knows, anything's possible) PE, H and S would give me the best shots at those fields.

This isn't to say that these are the best schools for everyone. I really think you have to come up with your own personal list of schools. I would've been thrilled attending Sloan (outstanding entrepreneurship) or Kellogg (great health/biotech management). And I really wish I would've had the time to take a look at Haas, which has great entrepreneurship and health management. As I'll explain whenever I get off my duff and write my "evolution of B-school pursuit" post, I came to this entire process quite late and had to rush it a fair amount.

In summary, I think everyone has to choose a list of schools that's appropriate to his/her interests and personality. For some people, that does include H/S/W :)
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 08:56
solaris1 wrote:
This is an awesome discussion, one sees things through so many perspectives. Hopefully this is the kind of debate that's also encouraged in business schools.


I hope so too. And yeah, this discussion has been quite healthy and interesting.

ps. Just so you guys know, my frequent posts have nothing to do with me attempting to become a VP ASAP. :lol:
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 09:17
mNeo wrote:
solaris1 wrote:
'that much more money' was in reference to the B-week survey dosa posted, Harvard grads from the Class of '92 appear to be making nearly 600k after bonuses etc., way higher apparently than some of the other schools. I was not making any assumptions.


Sorry, I should have been more clear. I didn't say that you assumed that Harvard grads make more money. I was focusing on the following statement of yours:

Are these Harvard grads making that much more money simply because they were already well on their way to the top of the corporate ladder before starting business school?


This would require knowledge of the MBA market in 92. Was it as competitive as today? How many people got MBA degrees? How established were the business schools?

Post-MBA salaries these days are not that much different among the top 10 schools (apparently they were, looking at how badly-paid Michigan MBA grads were back then)

The Harvard figures (Bonus) might be strongly influenced by a select few (if you get 20million bonus as a hedge fund manager you pull up that figure).

The question is also, if the strengths of the H/S/W are still so superior or if they are getting under fire as companies realize that social skills are more important and looking for schools with graduates that provide these better than a H might. (pure hypothesis)
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Re: H/W/S selection criteria [#permalink] New post 25 Jan 2008, 22:34
good discussion

i concur with whoever said that for many people it is not silly to only apply where you want to go, even if there is a high probability of not getting in. i only have one application left on the table after having been rejected at Cornell and LBS. i believe the wharton/lauder russian program is such a good fit for me that I think I might just get in, despite it seeming like a long shot on the surface.

if I don't get in, I am up for a promotion at work, and I am totally comfortable staying on my current path. i'm a born salesman. i can be a salesman here or in russia. it would be more interesting in russia, but i'm fine staying here in california. the weather is nice and the girls are just as pretty as they are in moscow.
Re: H/W/S selection criteria   [#permalink] 25 Jan 2008, 22:34
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