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Re: Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last becau [#permalink]
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I am confused with the use of "than". I will try to elaborate my confusion with official examples.

OG 19 - 758.

Prices at the producer level are only 1.3 percent higher now than a year ago and are going down, even though floods in the Midwest and drought in the south are hurting crops and therefore raised corn and soybean prices.

(A) than a year ago and are going down, even though floods in the Midwest and drought in the south are hurting crops and therefore raised

According to the OG explanantion this comparison in (A) is INCORRECT because it seems to be comparing the "prices" to "last year" which is illogical.
.
.
OG 19 - 772. (this question)

Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil than they were last year.

(A) Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil than they were

According to OG this comparison is CORRECT.


I fail to see the difference between the two and why one is correct and the other incorrect.
Please help me clarify this egmat GMATNinja sayantanc2k mikemcgarry
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blitzkriegxX wrote:
I am confused with the use of "than". I will try to elaborate my confusion with official examples.

OG 19 - 758.

Prices at the producer level are only 1.3 percent higher now than a year ago and are going down, even though floods in the Midwest and drought in the south are hurting crops and therefore raised corn and soybean prices.

(A) than a year ago and are going down, even though floods in the Midwest and drought in the south are hurting crops and therefore raised

According to the OG explanantion this comparison in (A) is INCORRECT because it seems to be comparing the "prices" to "last year" which is illogical.
.
.
OG 19 - 772. (this question)

Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil than they were last year.

(A) Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil than they were

According to OG this comparison is CORRECT.


I fail to see the difference between the two and why one is correct and the other incorrect.

Great observation, blitzkriegxX. And I'm afraid that your question doesn't really have a great answer.

So here's a crappy-but-honest answer: the OG explanations are actually not very good. The people who write the OG explanations are generally random contractors who are NOT affiliated with GMAC in any way. (I interviewed an OG explanation-writer once. She was a long, long way from being an expert on the GMAT.) The questions that appear in the OGs are generally written years -- or even decades -- before they're released to the general public. So whoever writes the explanations is left to guess what the original question-writers' intent was.

That's why we see so many flaws in the explanations. There's a lot of lazy stuff in the OGs. For example, answer choices are often dismissed as "awkward", and that means basically nothing, since TONS of correct answers are pretty darned awkward. And if you look hard enough, you'll find plenty of contradictions from one question to the next -- for example, an idiom dismissed as "awkward" in one question might be identified as correct in another. :idontknow:

Back to answer choice (A) from the question from the other thread:

Quote:
Prices at the producer level are only 1.3 percent higher now than a year ago and are going down, even though floods in the Midwest and drought in the south are hurting crops and therefore raised corn and soybean prices.

I think the OG explanation is garbage here. The comparison you identified ("prices... are only 1.3 percent higher now than a year ago...") seems perfectly decent to me. But as pk123 mentioned, the verb tenses are a problem: "floods... and drought... are hurting crops and therefore raised... prices." Why the heck would those two things be in different tenses? It's saying that floods and draught raised prices in the past, but "are hurting crops" right now. That's nonsense.

To be fair, the correct answer changes the comparison to something that's arguably a little bit clearer: "prices are higher... than THOSE a year ago..." I just don't think that the comparison is the biggest factor, and the OG did a lousy job of communicating that.

Bottom line: take OG explanations with a grain of salt, because they're far from perfect.

I'm sure that this is among the least-satisfying things you've ever read on GMAT Club, but I hope it helps a bit, anyway!
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Re: Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last becau [#permalink]
GMATNinja wrote:

But for whatever it’s worth: “they” still seems to refer perfectly reasonably to “refiners.” And the word “did” replaces the verb “pay” (or “paid”, since “did” is past tense). So those things are OK.


Hi GMATNinja generis
As per Manhattan SC guide
Quote:
The first instance of the verb should usually match the helping verb in tense. If you need to change tenses, repeat the whole verb in the new tense.
Wrong: I have never seen an aardvark, but last year my father DID.
Right: I have never seen an aardvark, but last year my father saw one.


So if we use the same principle in the options B, C, & E.
B. "did" can be replaced by "pay"
C. "did" can be replaced by "are paying"
E. "did" can be replaced by "pay"
and that is incorrect. As per meaning of the sentence, we need "were paying" in the last part of the sentence.

What is the gap in my understanding?

thanks
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cici wrote:
Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil than they were last year.


(A) Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil than they were

(B) Heating-oil prices are expected to rise higher this year over last because refiners pay about $5 a barrel for crude oil more than they did

(C) Expectations are for heating-oil prices to be higher this year than last year's because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel for crude oil more than they did

(D) It is the expectation that heating-oil prices will be higher this year over last because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil now than what they were

(E) It is the expected that heating-oil prices will rise higher this year than last year's because refiners pay about $5 a barrel for crude oil more than they did

OG2017 SC772

LordStark wrote:
GMATNinja wrote:

But for whatever it’s worth: “they” still seems to refer perfectly reasonably to “refiners.” And the word “did” replaces the verb “pay” (or “paid”, since “did” is past tense). So those things are OK.

Hi GMATNinja generis
As per Manhattan SC guide
Quote:
The first instance of the verb should usually match the helping verb in tense. If you need to change tenses, repeat the whole verb in the new tense.
Wrong: I have never seen an aardvark, but last year my father DID.
Right: I have never seen an aardvark, but last year my father saw one.

So if we use the same principle in the options B, C, & E.
B. "did" can be replaced by "pay"
C. "did" can be replaced by "are paying"
E. "did" can be replaced by "pay"
and that is incorrect. As per meaning of the sentence, we need "were paying" in the last part of the sentence.

What is the gap in my understanding?

thanks

LordStark , there is no gap in your understanding. (And you are working really hard! I can't keep up with your posts:) )

The book is wrong.

Ron Purewal explains that those particular parts are wrong:

"that's not accurate. in fact, one of the prime uses of helping verbs in parallel constructions is to express the same verb in a different tense.."

we may already have gotten rid of that "rule" in the 5th edition books.


The authors did not get rid of the rule.

Take a look HERE.

The posts by Ron P in the next link are good. They are about helping verbs and the instances in which do, does, or did will work. (Almost always.)

The posts can be found here, on this thread

Finally GMATNinja 's explanation is really good. His explanation is HERE. The did in the other options is a red herring. GMATNinja explained the other options' errors.

HERE is an official question involving the use of did that might help more than this question.

Finally, here is a forum topic thread dedicated to ellipsis and substitution, a discussion that includes mikemcgarry and egmat.

I think that reading those two threads will be much more productive than staying with this one. :-)

Hope that analysis helps.
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Re: Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last becau [#permalink]
Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil than they were last year.

(B) Heating-oil prices are expected to rise higher this year over last because refiners pay about $5 a barrel for crude oil more than they did
(E) It is expected that heating-oil prices will rise higher this year than last year's because refiners pay about $5 a barrel for crude oil more than they did

Is "pay" correct here? I eliminated B & D considering that , "refiners are paying" is superior to "refiners pay". Refiners pay sounds as if refiners are always paying 5 dollars more.(Kinda Universal truth).

Is my reasoning correct?
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darshak1 wrote:
Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil than they were last year.

(B) Heating-oil prices are expected to rise higher this year over last because refiners pay about $5 a barrel for crude oil more than they did
(E) It is expected that heating-oil prices will rise higher this year than last year's because refiners pay about $5 a barrel for crude oil more than they did

Is "pay" correct here? I eliminated B & D considering that , "refiners are paying" is superior to "refiners pay". Refiners pay sounds as if refiners are always paying 5 dollars more.(Kinda Universal truth).

Is my reasoning correct?
GMATNinja egmat mikemcgarry


Hello darshak1!

Thanks for your question! As you can see from my explanation above, I didn't cover the "are paying/pay" debate at all. Why? Because both are correct to use here and mean the same thing. There are other differences between each option that actually are grammatically incorrect, and if you follow those differences, you'll get to the correct answer quickly.

Sometimes, the GMAT likes to throw in things like this to trip you up. Typically, if you see a comparison question, start by focusing your attention there instead of which present tense verb to use. It's more common in a comparison question to see problems with the comparison and less so with other minor things.

I hope this helps!
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Re: Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last becau [#permalink]
daagh wrote:
Ellipsis is at its full play in this topic. Let me paraphrase it, with the elliptical elements in parenthesis.

A) Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year
than last (year) because refiners are paying about $5 a
barrel more for crude oil than they were (paying) last year.
One can now see how the comparisons are smugly fitting in.

2.) It is expected that heating-oil prices will rise
higher this year than last year's because refiners
pay about $5 a barrel for crude oil more than
they did

A cue for the correctness of the comparison can be had from the placement of the comparison -marker such as than etc. The comparison marker is place placed either next or prior to what it compares. Here in this case, than is placed next to this year and therefore the comparison should legally appear with a similar feature such as last year and not last year’s.


daagh
one doubt i have :
heationg oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last
here last year and this year are being compared as than is closest to last and on lhs of than we have this year.
But what is the basis of comparison here ?
Is it
Prices this year vs prices last year.

See if i say
Michael loves Julie more than Sara.
it may mean
Michael loves julie more than Mochael loves(subject+verb repeated fro understanding) Sara
or it may mean
Mochael loves julie more than Sara loves Julie(verb+object )

So this is ambiguity
Now coming to orgnl sentence
i cannot say
Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than[heating oil prices are expected] last year (repated sub+verb)--but this is tense issue ,it should be were but since were is no where else used in this senetnce so we cannot omit were so this cannot be desried compariosn
So my question is
Are we taking that only subject is repeated here.is that allowed?
heating oil prices this year than [heating oil prices--repeating only subject] last year.
but isnot it wrong to assume something after than when last year is given after than
so if last year is given than how we made compariosn of price this year vs price[how did this price came after than] last year
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There are two compariosn here; you might see that 'than' is used in two places.
1.In the first case the central element is heating oil and the comparison is between heating oil prices last year and their prices this year. A straight comparison between two nouns because there is no action verb but only a linking verb (are expected) -
Take-away: When a sentence has no action verb, the comparison stays between the nouns.
2. refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil than they were last year.

Here, there is an action verb ' 'are paying' that is central to the comparison as between what the refiners were paying last year and what they are paying this year. In both cases, the noun or the agent of the action is the same i.e. refiners.
Therefore, the subject goes to the background and the action verb comes to fore. This is the major difference.

Please also be careful with the use of tense as tense is the key time-marker, which is bound to change according to the actual timing of the action. Whether expressed or elided, what happened and ended yesterday will always be in the past tense, what happens now always in the present tense and what will happen tomorrow, always in the future tense. We can't say, the child at last night, the child ate now or the child will ate tomorrow. This is the essence of ellipsis and parallelism.

Sentence structure, grammar, logic, and effective expression are the most essential vibes of GMAT SC.
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COMPARISONS, HELPING VERBS


Here's my explanation of this classic question. Actually, it is my all-time third favorite GMAT SC questions. I hope it helps




Best,


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Re: Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last becau [#permalink]
Aren't we comparing two different things in Opt. A? prices will be higher this year than last year? maybe I am being too mechanical, but this sounds like we're comparing prices this year with the (last) year, itself. while we need to compare prices of the two years.
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ueh55406 wrote:
Aren't we comparing two different things in Opt. A? prices will be higher this year than last year? maybe I am being too mechanical, but this sounds like we're comparing prices this year with the (last) year, itself. while we need to compare prices of the two years.

Hi ueh55406, you ask an interesting question. I am assuming that you intend to suggest that the verb were needed to be explicitly mentioned after than (...than were last year)

In general, we indeed need to repeat the verb with the correct tense, if the tense is changing.

However, GMAT shows flexibility in this regard if the implied verb after the comparison indicator is a simple linking verb (especially is/was/were).

This is what's going on here:

Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than (were) last (year)

Since a simple linking verb (were) is being implied in the second part, it's fine to assume it, despite the tense change.

There are multiple other examples in OG:

Industry analysts said that the recent rise in fuel prices may be an early signal that prices of gasoline and heating oil will stay higher than usual through the end of the year.

Again, the actual sentence is:

...prices of gasoline and heating oil will stay higher than (is) usual....

Since a simple linking verb (is) is being implied in the second part, it's fine to assume it, despite the tense change.

On the other hand, instead of a simple linking verb, if an action verb is involved and there is a tense change, then it becomes mandatory to explicitly mention the verb. So, following would be incorrect:

Peter works harder now than one year back.

Since an action verb (work) is involved, we need to explicitly mention the verb with the correct tense. So, the correct sentence would be:

Peter works harder now than he did one year back.

p.s. Our book EducationAisle Sentence Correction Nirvana discusses this comparison related concept of "linking verbs", its application and examples in significant detail. If you or someone is interested, PM me your email-id; I can mail the corresponding section.
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Re: Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last becau [#permalink]
EducationAisle wrote:
ueh55406 wrote:
Aren't we comparing two different things in Opt. A? prices will be higher this year than last year? maybe I am being too mechanical, but this sounds like we're comparing prices this year with the (last) year, itself. while we need to compare prices of the two years.

Hi ueh55406, you ask an interesting question. I am assuming that you intend to suggest that the verb were needed to be explicitly mentioned after than (...than were last year)

In general, we indeed need to repeat the verb with the correct tense, if the tense is changing.

However, GMAT shows flexibility in this regard if the implied verb after the comparison indicator is a simple linking verb (especially is/was/were).

This is what's going on here:

Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than (were) last (year)

Since a simple linking verb (were) is being implied in the second part, it's fine to assume it, despite the tense change.

There are multiple other examples in OG:

Industry analysts said that the recent rise in fuel prices may be an early signal that prices of gasoline and heating oil will stay higher than usual through the end of the year.

Again, the actual sentence is:

...prices of gasoline and heating oil will stay higher than (is) usual....

Since a simple linking verb (is) is being implied in the second part, it's fine to assume it, despite the tense change.

On the other hand, instead of a simple linking verb, if an action verb is involved and there is a tense change, then it becomes mandatory to explicitly mention the verb. So, following would be incorrect:

Peter works harder now than one year back.

Since an action verb (work) is involved, we need to explicitly mention the verb with the correct tense. So, the correct sentence would be:

Peter works harder now than he did one year back.

p.s. Our book EducationAisle Sentence Correction Nirvana discusses this comparison related concept of "linking verbs", its application and examples in significant detail. If you or someone is interested, PM me your email-id; I can mail the corresponding section.


Yes, Exactly. Although, it seems this is something which is not universal. I had this doubt because a day before attempting this question I did one of the OG's question which is along the lines of trade deficit (I can't remember the question exactly). but the heart the question was "trade deficit between x and y is less than P and q ( x,y,p,q are all countries). Now comes the same issue. we're comparing trade deficit of X and Y with the country P and Q themselves (which is incorrect, as per the solution). But the next day this question pops up and now suddenly, we're okay with comparing two diff. entities. truly, GMAT plays with your head in more than one way.
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ueh55406 wrote:
the heart the question was "trade deficit between x and y is less than P and q ( x,y,p,q are all countries). Now comes the same issue. we're comparing trade deficit of X and Y with the country P and Q themselves (which is incorrect, as per the solution).

Remember that we are supposed to be picking an answer choice that conveys the meaning in the most unambiguous manner.

So, couple of ways in which this meaning ambiguity can be resolved is;

trade deficit between x and y is less than is between P and q
- The explicit mentioning of the verb is immediately after than, clearly indicates that the only way we can interpret this is: ...than (trade deficit) is between P and q.

Or

trade deficit between x and y is less than that between P and q
- The demonstrative pronoun that (referring to trade deficit), again clearly indicates that the only way we can interpret this is: ...than that (trade deficit) between P and q (is).

p.s. See if you can post the actual question (of trade deficit).
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Re: Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last becau [#permalink]
MartyTargetTestPrep GMATNinja AjiteshArun

Hi experts,

I have a quick question regarding option A vs C. Aside from the comparison issue, I have a doubt about the order of the prepositional phrases in the following section:

Within A: "...paying about $5 a barrel MORE for crude oil than they were..."
Within C: "...paying about $5 a barrel for crude oil MORE than they did..."

Is there any material difference with the placement of more?
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Re: Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last becau [#permalink]
cici wrote:
Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil than they were last year.


(A) Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil than they were

(B) Heating-oil prices are expected to rise higher this year over last because refiners pay about $5 a barrel for crude oil more than they did

(C) Expectations are for heating-oil prices to be higher this year than last year's because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel for crude oil more than they did

(D) It is the expectation that heating-oil prices will be higher this year over last because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil now than what they were

(E) It is expected that heating-oil prices will rise higher this year than last year's because refiners pay about $5 a barrel for crude oil more than they did


Source : OG2017 SC772

Verbal Question of The Day: Day 223: Sentence Correction


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https://www.nytimes.com/1996/11/06/business/relief-for-winter-heating-oil-prices-fall.html

Heating oil prices, however, are expected to be higher than last year because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil than they were last year. Still, crude prices have also retreated from their highs in recent weeks.

Attachment:
080.jpg

Attachment:
081.jpg

Attachment:
082.jpg


Shouldn't answer A have " Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than THEY WERE last YEAR because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil than they were"
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billionaire999 wrote:
Shouldn't answer A have " Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than THEY WERE last YEAR because refiners are paying about $5 a barrel more for crude oil than they were"

Absolutely, that would have been correct as well, but then (by GMAT's standards) would have been too easy :).

So, the test-makers (the powers that be) decide to deploy bit of an ellipsis here, just to make the question slightly trickier.
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Re: Heating-oil prices are expected to be higher this year than last becau [#permalink]
"Expected to be higher this year than last..."

Than last what? Last year? Last time we checked?

Ambiguous. Not at all my favourite SC question.

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