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# Herself the mother of seven children, Mrs. New- land

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Director
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26 Apr 2005, 18:25
jpv wrote:
Got it... webster:

Appositives are almost always treated as parenthetical elements.
* Calhoun's ambition, to become a goalie in professional soccer, is within his reach.
* Eleanor, his wife of thirty years, suddenly decided to open her own business.

Sometimes the appositive and the word it identifies are so closely related that the comma can be omitted, as in "His wife Eleanor suddenly decided to open her own business." We could argue that the name "Eleanor" is not essential to the meaning of the sentence (assuming he has only one wife), and that would suggest that we can put commas both before and after the name (and that would, indeed, be correct). But "his wife" and "Eleanor" are so close that we can regard the entire phrase as one unit and leave out the commas. With the phrase turned around, however, we have a more definite parenthetical element and the commas are necessary: "Eleanor, his wife, suddenly decided to open her own business." Consider, also, the difference between "College President Ira Rubenzahl voted to rescind the withdrawal policy" (in which we need the name "Ira Rubenzahl" or the sentence doesn't make sense) and "Ira Rubenzahl, the college president, voted to rescind the withdrawal policy" (in which the sentence makes sense without his title, the appositive, and we treat the appositive as a parenthetical element, with a pair of commas).

Source: http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm#3 :: Point 4

JPV i dont think the phrase "Herself the mother of seven children" is an appositive. Because as you explained it can be a parenthetical element. In this case i'm saying its not an appositive because a) an appositive has to succeed the noun it is amplfying. So i dont think your explanation is robust enough

[http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/cases.htm#appositives]
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26 Apr 2005, 19:30
gmataquaguy wrote:
JPV i dont think the phrase "Herself the mother of seven children" is an appositive. Because as you explained it can be a parenthetical element. In this case i'm saying its not an appositive because a) an appositive has to succeed the noun it is amplfying. So i dont think your explanation is robust enough

When u say succeed, u mean after Noun. If yes, then That was what I was trying to say.
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Re: SC: The mother of...... [#permalink]

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26 Apr 2005, 19:43
gmataquaguy wrote:
MA what is the source of this question? Just as Paul explained "A" could stand as an answer choice as well.

i do not know the source of this question. it is a compilation by somebody, and provided by nocilis.

i implicitly posted OA earlier. Anyway, the OA is E.
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28 Apr 2005, 13:37
jpv wrote:
gmataquaguy wrote:
JPV i dont think the phrase "Herself the mother of seven children" is an appositive. Because as you explained it can be a parenthetical element. In this case i'm saying its not an appositive because a) an appositive has to succeed the noun it is amplfying. So i dont think your explanation is robust enough

When u say succeed, u mean after Noun. If yes, then That was what I was trying to say.

Okay we're both saying the same thing then. So would you explain why you need "Being"? I've seen the entire thread, mulled over it a couple of times and looked at the definition of appositives and still dont see why you need Being. The introductory modifier without 'being" suffices to modify the subject Mrx.B.

Anyone:
Why do we need the participle Being? The introductory modifier isnt an appositive [atleast as per webster].
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29 Apr 2005, 13:45
Any explanations?

Paul, Honghu and the other SC guru's please chime in.
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29 Apr 2005, 14:19
What jpv said was that an appositive, being a parenthetical element, has to modify the noun that precedes. In this case, the appositive is used as an introductory modifier but it cannot be because an introductory modifier is not modifying any preceding noun; it is modifying the noun which follows. Thus, it is preferable to transform the phrase into a participial form instead of the appositive form. This is based on the definition given by webster. However, had the question been like this:

Mrs. New- land, herself the mother of seven children, discusses the care of infants in very helpful ways.

Then the appositive form without "being" would be best. This is how I understand it.
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30 Apr 2005, 07:39
Paul wrote:
What jpv said was that an appositive, being a parenthetical element, has to modify the noun that precedes. In this case, the appositive is used as an introductory modifier but it cannot be because an introductory modifier is not modifying any preceding noun; it is modifying the noun which follows. Thus, it is preferable to transform the phrase into a participial form instead of the appositive form. This is based on the definition given by webster. However, had the question been like this:

Mrs. New- land, herself the mother of seven children, discusses the care of infants in very helpful ways.

Then the appositive form without "being" would be best. This is how I understand it.

So i guess the lesson learnt here is that

a) Any phrase that precedes a noun and that is used to describe a noun can never take the form of an appositive because by definition it is a parenthetical element and therefore should succeed the noun.

b) Be able to distinguish between an appositive and introductory modifier.
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30 Apr 2005, 08:09
Agree with (a) but (b) needs a nuance. An appositive is a figure of style while a modifier is a grammatical structure so the two are different elements that you can't directly compare as in "distinguish between X and Y" but I do agree that you have to know that an appositive will never be an introductory modifier . You do need to know how to spot each.
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Paul

30 Apr 2005, 08:09

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