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High GMAT no (SURE) ticket to success in Bschool

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High GMAT no (SURE) ticket to success in Bschool [#permalink] New post 15 Jan 2003, 00:21
Expert's post
I Find this post especially helpful, this was taken from Princeton Review's Board July 2002.

I haven't been on this board for a year or two and have some new perspective regarding GMAT scores as graduation draws near. Admittedly the evidence backing up some of my assertions is anecdotal, but some may find it interesting nonetheless.

1) The GMAT doesn't predict performance very well in an MBA program. I know quite a few people in my program with what are considered "low" scores (590 for instance) that have been on the deans list every semester. Additionally, some of these folks have gone on to bag some of the most sort after positions with top notch consulting firms for instance.

2) High GMATers can typically be elusive. Many of the highest scorers in my class were not what I considered team players. A generalization? Sure. But my experience with ultra high folks was that they wanted to do their own thing. Also by elusive I mean their lack of success in being present during 2nd interview rounds. In general, their interpersonal skills held them back as much in the give and take of a case classroom discussion as in their interviews (a guess since I wasn't in their interviews...)
However, I can think of some notable exceptions to this observation, with some top GMATers scoring awesome jobs.

3) Most of the strong leadership folks at school are only average scorers. High GMATers were not to be found in positions that required alturistic uses of ones precious time in Bschool. Take from this comment what you will. Also, I really don't know why this is. Certainly it could be because 790's are a lot rarer than 680's, but now that I know the individuals personally behind the scores its clear why the "average" folks are leading and the others aren't.

That's all I'll share for now. Rip this apart if you will. Question my school (its an excellent one) if you want. However, please understand I don't have an ax to grind against top scorers. Rather, these are just some observations made after 2 wearying years at Bschool. Bottom line: True success in Bschool (academics, leadership, job) is not defined by a high GMAT.

Best!
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 [#permalink] New post 15 Jan 2003, 12:31
The comments about the GMAT not predicting academic performance are incorrect. The GMAT is the best thing going in predicting first-year performance in core academic courses. The following passage is from the Graduate Management Admission Council's Web site for people who work at b-schools (as a GMAT-taker and b-school applicant, you should visit http://www.mba.com, though):

Validity
The validity of GMAT scores can be described as the degree to which the scores relate to or predict first-year grades in graduate management programs. Since 1978, GMAC has conducted many studies of the validity of GMAT scores. In all studies, GMAT scores, undergraduate grade point averages, and average grades for the first year of graduate school were obtained.

The most recent validity studies indicate that the correlation between GMAT Verbal, Quantitative, and Analytical Writing Assessment (AWA) scores and first-year graduate management school grades was .41 (a 1.0 indicates perfect accuracy of prediction). The median correlation between undergraduate grade point average (GPA) and first-year graduate management school grades was .26. When GMAT scores were combined with undergraduate GPA, the median correlation was.47.

These results indicate that GMAT scores are generally better than undergraduate GPAs for predicting average grades in the first-year of graduate management school. However, the best predictor is obtained by combining GMAT scores and the undergraduate GPA.
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 [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2003, 19:32
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jacquio wrote:
The comments about the GMAT not predicting academic performance are incorrect. The GMAT is the best thing going in predicting first-year performance in core academic courses. The following passage is from the Graduate Management Admission Council's Web site for people who work at b-schools (as a GMAT-taker and b-school applicant, you should visit http://www.mba.com, though):

Validity
The validity of GMAT scores can be described as the degree to which the scores relate to or predict first-year grades in graduate management programs. Since 1978, GMAC has conducted many studies of the validity of GMAT scores. In all studies, GMAT scores, undergraduate grade point averages, and average grades for the first year of graduate school were obtained.

The most recent validity studies indicate that the correlation between GMAT Verbal, Quantitative, and Analytical Writing Assessment (AWA) scores and first-year graduate management school grades was .41 (a 1.0 indicates perfect accuracy of prediction). The median correlation between undergraduate grade point average (GPA) and first-year graduate management school grades was .26. When GMAT scores were combined with undergraduate GPA, the median correlation was.47.

These results indicate that GMAT scores are generally better than undergraduate GPAs for predicting average grades in the first-year of graduate management school. However, the best predictor is obtained by combining GMAT scores and the undergraduate GPA.



Thank you very much for Statistics, Jacquio.

One clarification though. Your argument is correct about academic performance, but I think the author was more concerned with one's success as a leader and a good team player. Right now, at the Bschool we have teams for everything, at first they sucked because people sucked or becuase I sucked. Often I have to reschedule things to make meetings work and I often hate it. Right now I am much better and most of the groups are a breeze, but still, I am not a very good team player. I have to admit it. I Often pull everything, object to other's, and often make decisions that don't benefit the group. I have stopped being a self driven person becuase there was just no poing. In fact, what I have noticed is that often the leader of the group is a person who manages to make people work together, not somebody smart or knowledgeable. I am almost sure that people who score higher than 97 percentile are arrogant. There may be 2 exceptions, but mostly people gain arrogance just because society imposses it on him/her. You are welcome to tear my argument apart, but with all my love and appreciation of people wiht High GMAT, they are often a pain to work with.

P.S. Another things is that all who have 99th percentile are wierd, making things even more difficult 8)
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 [#permalink] New post 09 Jul 2003, 16:59
You claim that all 99% are weird and/or arrogant. How did you know that they scored over 750? Did they tell you or make it obvious via their implications? Perhaps you have a bad sample. Maybe only 99%s who feel a need to let everyone know that they are a 99% are arrogant. It is entirely possible that there is a silent majority of 750+ scorers that are pretty cool, but you'd never know it becuase they remain incognito. (this would make a good CR question).

I went to a school where there are a LOT of 99%. I don't know FOR SURE who they are, but I can certainly guess and while there are some that are jerks, most of the ones I suspect that scored REALLY high are brilliant and worth listening to, confident in their intelligence, yet not nearly "arrogant".

Whether or not getting a high GMAT score is indicative of ANYTHING, there is no doubt that a high score will help you more than hurt you get in a good school. That in itself is a good reason to try an achieve one.
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MFE, Haas School of Business, UC Berkeley, Class of 2005
MBA, Anderson School of Management, UCLA, Class of 1993

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 [#permalink] New post 10 Jul 2003, 08:31
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AkamaiBrah wrote:
You claim that all 99% are weird and/or arrogant. How did you know that they scored over 750? Did they tell you or make it obvious via their implications? Perhaps you have a bad sample. Maybe only 99%s who feel a need to let everyone know that they are a 99% are arrogant. It is entirely possible that there is a silent majority of 750+ scorers that are pretty cool, but you'd never know it becuase they remain incognito. (this would make a good CR question).

I went to a school where there are a LOT of 99%. I don't know FOR SURE who they are, but I can certainly guess and while there are some that are jerks, most of the ones I suspect that scored REALLY high are brilliant and worth listening to, confident in their intelligence, yet not nearly "arrogant".

Whether or not getting a high GMAT score is indicative of ANYTHING, there is no doubt that a high score will help you more than hurt you get in a good school. That in itself is a good reason to try an achieve one.



Part of the argument is based on me getting 99th percentile and part of it is based on that in a small program it is hard to keep things secret, so we almost all figured out who had how much on the GMAT. Not that we knew that it is 610 or 690, but that a person got over 700, etc....

Obviously my sample was not very representative or adequate in size, but it is very true for younger MBA"s, esp. those who are just out of college or just a few years out. Still not much clue about the job/world but a lot of pathos due to a high GMAT score. They have nothing else to put out when it comes down to the basics. Just my thoughts.

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HIGH gmat [#permalink] New post 30 Jul 2003, 01:20
even for people having 7-8 years of workex, a high GMAT is essential . All things being same, a person having higher GMAT will have a higher probablity of getting the admit packet.

This is specially true for people coming from countries where traditionally a lot of people apply to B schools, like india & china.
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Re: High GMAT no (SURE) ticket to success in Bschool [#permalink] New post 25 Aug 2003, 15:39
bb wrote:
I Find this post especially helpful, this was taken from Princeton Review's Board July 2002.

I haven't been on this board for a year or two and have some new perspective regarding GMAT scores as graduation draws near. Admittedly the evidence backing up some of my assertions is anecdotal, but some may find it interesting nonetheless.

1) The GMAT doesn't predict performance very well in an MBA program. I know quite a few people in my program with what are considered "low" scores (590 for instance) that have been on the deans list every semester. Additionally, some of these folks have gone on to bag some of the most sort after positions with top notch consulting firms for instance.

2) High GMATers can typically be elusive. Many of the highest scorers in my class were not what I considered team players. A generalization? Sure. But my experience with ultra high folks was that they wanted to do their own thing. Also by elusive I mean their lack of success in being present during 2nd interview rounds. In general, their interpersonal skills held them back as much in the give and take of a case classroom discussion as in their interviews (a guess since I wasn't in their interviews...)
However, I can think of some notable exceptions to this observation, with some top GMATers scoring awesome jobs.

3) Most of the strong leadership folks at school are only average scorers. High GMATers were not to be found in positions that required alturistic uses of ones precious time in Bschool. Take from this comment what you will. Also, I really don't know why this is. Certainly it could be because 790's are a lot rarer than 680's, but now that I know the individuals personally behind the scores its clear why the "average" folks are leading and the others aren't.

That's all I'll share for now. Rip this apart if you will. Question my school (its an excellent one) if you want. However, please understand I don't have an ax to grind against top scorers. Rather, these are just some observations made after 2 wearying years at Bschool. Bottom line: True success in Bschool (academics, leadership, job) is not defined by a high GMAT.

Best!


I tend to agree with AkamaiBrah on this issue. I think it's really statistically spurious to say that 750+ scorers are selfish jerks or wallflowers or whatever and those with less than 600 are all wonderful people. I can spend hours and hours on why the kind of anecdotal observations used to make generalizations about high scorers vs lower scorers are flawed, but I think everyone on this site know enough about statistical logic to figure that out.

However, I will make these two points:

(1) Some schools will tend to have more 700+ scorers than others and -- by definition -- there will be relatively fewer 700+ scorers in the overall B-school population. If anecdotally someone observes less 700+ scorers doing something or the other, it seems more logically plausible that this is because there just aren't that many 700+ scorers out there in the first place rather than that 700+ scorers are something or the other.

(2) Some of the negative comments re 700+ scorers can be interpreted as saying something like 'Hey, they're just a bunch of eggheaded nerds.' Again, 700+ scorers are going to tend to be -- although there will of course be exceptions -- smarter people. As most of us should realize by now, many very intelligent people aren't as boisterous and back-slapping as their less intellectual peers (of course there are exceptions either way).

Putting the idea out there that high scorers are wallflowers just reinforces the negative stereotypes that are out there that tend to disproportionately hurt foreign and immigrant applicants that tend to be intelligent and relatively reserved compared to the non-immigrant American & Western cultures.

While the GMAT isn't the fairest way to select students for B-schools, you got to ask yourself what alternative is fairer? What college fraternity you were in? Family wealth and influence? Cocktail party skills (rather than intellectual ones)?

Let's not give people who tend to be bigoted toward intellectuals and/or from other cultures any more excuse to hold on to their wrong-headed attitudes. Like AkamaiBrah said, there are a lot of great high scorers out there and there are some jerks out there too ... but that's true of ALL categories of people. Let's not develop some unreasonable stereotypes about high scorers, low scorers, and people in between.
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Re: High GMAT no (SURE) ticket to success in Bschool [#permalink] New post 25 Aug 2003, 20:34
bb wrote:
I Find this post especially helpful, this was taken from Princeton Review's Board July 2002.

I haven't been on this board for a year or two and have some new perspective regarding GMAT scores as graduation draws near. Admittedly the evidence backing up some of my assertions is anecdotal, but some may find it interesting nonetheless.

1) The GMAT doesn't predict performance very well in an MBA program. I know quite a few people in my program with what are considered "low" scores (590 for instance) that have been on the deans list every semester. Additionally, some of these folks have gone on to bag some of the most sort after positions with top notch consulting firms for instance.

2) High GMATers can typically be elusive. Many of the highest scorers in my class were not what I considered team players. A generalization? Sure. But my experience with ultra high folks was that they wanted to do their own thing. Also by elusive I mean their lack of success in being present during 2nd interview rounds. In general, their interpersonal skills held them back as much in the give and take of a case classroom discussion as in their interviews (a guess since I wasn't in their interviews...)
However, I can think of some notable exceptions to this observation, with some top GMATers scoring awesome jobs.

3) Most of the strong leadership folks at school are only average scorers. High GMATers were not to be found in positions that required alturistic uses of ones precious time in Bschool. Take from this comment what you will. Also, I really don't know why this is. Certainly it could be because 790's are a lot rarer than 680's, but now that I know the individuals personally behind the scores its clear why the "average" folks are leading and the others aren't.

That's all I'll share for now. Rip this apart if you will. Question my school (its an excellent one) if you want. However, please understand I don't have an ax to grind against top scorers. Rather, these are just some observations made after 2 wearying years at Bschool. Bottom line: True success in Bschool (academics, leadership, job) is not defined by a high GMAT.

Best!


590 is a low score? 540 is the mean score of several B schools Im applying to. Does that mean a 600+ is a competitive edge, even though you guys think its "low"?
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 [#permalink] New post 23 Nov 2003, 17:35
Gladstone, I am not sure how this myth appears to be more hurtful to foreign students than American or western students (interesting categories). I think the assumption underlying your observation is that a higher proportion of foreign students score 750 or above. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does that not sound arrogant? LOL
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  [#permalink] 23 Nov 2003, 17:35
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