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# His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land,

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His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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30 Jun 2003, 10:28
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This topic is now locked. Refer to his-studies-of-ice-polished-rocks-to-spot-adverb-166115.html for open discussion of this question.

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

[Reveal] Spoiler:
It's either B or E. Is it due to idioms( in which vs. when) or since the age is in the past; it is unlikely that the great ice sheets existed in areas now. I know diction is important on GMAT. In ( now) temperate areas , does now function as an adjective?

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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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02 Feb 2012, 21:35
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gmatpunjabi wrote:
Thank You for the post, but I am still trying to figure out why is Past Perfect Not Required in this case

To understand this question better, i think we should know the guiding principles behind the usage of past perfect.
It is well known that part perfect should be used only to show a sequence of events with simple past.
The train had left when we arrived. ( a sequence of events is mandatory to be shown otherwise it changes the meaning)
The train left when we arrived. (means train left after we arrived at the station)

and past perfect should not be used when the sequence is not required to be shown.
The Train left before we reached the railway station.( before is clearly showing sequence of events)

The train left after we reached the station( after is showing sequence of events)
Now let's see our question
gmatpunjabi wrote:
in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in what are now temperate areas

now the sequence of events can be easily distinguished because one event is happening in past and one in present.
Do we still need past perfect???

past perfect to be used only with simple past and that too when a sequence is required to be shown.
hope this expl helps.
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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03 Feb 2012, 19:56
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gmatpunjabi wrote:
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in what are now temperate areas
(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in what are now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

Why is Past Perfect Not Required in this Question?

Also why is Answer D wrong?

Past perfect is not need because the time in the sentence is not necessary in demonstrating the moment of the sentence that express the ice sheet exited before the proposal of Louis Agassiz.

In choice D, the meaning is different with the correct choice B (Ice sheet existed in the area now is temperate one, before that, it is not temperate area, but ice sheet area). Choice D expresses that ice sheet in current temperate area. Before that, we do not know what kind of that area, may be temperate/tropic/polar ice, etc.
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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05 Feb 2012, 18:15
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gmatpunjabi wrote:
Thank you for your post. I am sorry I do not understand the distinction you are drawing in the meanings of Choice B and D

read this...hope this clears the doubt.....

rajeevrks27 wrote:
gmatpunjabi wrote:
Thank You for the post, but I am still trying to figure out why is Past Perfect Not Required in this case

To understand this question better, i think we should know the guiding principles behind the usage of past perfect.
It is well known that part perfect should be used only to show a sequence of events with simple past.
The train had left when we arrived. ( a sequence of events is mandatory to be shown otherwise it changes the meaning)
The train left when we arrived. (means train left after we arrived at the station)

and past perfect should not be used when the sequence is not required to be shown.
The Train left before we reached the railway station.( before is clearly showing sequence of events)

The train left after we reached the station( after is showing sequence of events)
Now let's see our question
gmatpunjabi wrote:
in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in what are now temperate areas

now the sequence of events can be easily distinguished because one event is happening in past and one in present.
Do we still need past perfect???

past perfect to be used only with simple past and that too when a sequence is required to be shown.
hope this expl helps.

That's my 2 cents...
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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12 Feb 2012, 03:45
points to consider

a) wrong-past perfect used, however simple past should be used, as we are not discuss two events in the past, rather we are discussing one event in the past.
b) correct- in which is the correct usage
c) wrong- too wordy
d) wrong -past perfect used
e) wrong-are is unncessary used
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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10 Mar 2012, 11:34
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I picked B for this question:

There is no problem with either "in which" or "when." This comes directly from Manhattan SC 4th Edition on Page 88 - Chapter 6.

The problem really lies with the tense. Past perfect tense is not necessary here because the ice sheets' existence is not directly related to Louis Aggassiz studies that led to his proposal. I understand that without the existence of the ice sheets, his studies wouldn't be complete in the first place. However, the existence of the ice sheets didn't influence his decision to propose the concept.

A. Past perfect tense is incorrect

B. Clear and concise. The appropriate tense is used - "existed" for the ice sheets and "are now" to state current situation.

C. The use of the modifier "where" is incorrect. It seems to be modifying ice sheets. "Where" should be used to modify places. Also, the use of the simple past tense "were" is incorrect because we are trying to describe the current situation.

D. Past perfect tense is incorrect. Also, this answer choice doesn't describe the comparison correctly. It seems to suggest that the ice sheets existed in current temperate areas. What does that even mean?

E. I felt that that wording could have been better in this answer choice. Instead of "in areas now that are temperate," it should be "in areas that are now temperate."
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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23 Mar 2012, 11:45
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B is right

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas ( now + current. redundant)
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas. correct
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate. "were areas" is incorrect. The areas must still exist.
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas. current temperate should be currently temperate
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate. should be "that are now"

B by POE
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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08 May 2012, 09:39
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Hi All,

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

It is very important to understand the meaning of this sentence in order to ascertain whether we need past perfect tense in this sentence or not. In 1837, Louis Agassiz proposed the concept of an age in which great ice sheets existed in those areas that are now temperate areas. His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers led Agassiz to make this proposal.

We use past perfect tense to establish sequencing, that is to show out of two events in the past, which event took place earlier and which took place later. It is true that there are two events in this sentence and both took place in the past – “led” and “had existed”.
However when we use past perfect tense, we must keep in mind that in order to establish sequencing between the two events, they must be related. There should be some bearing of one event on the other.
In this sentence, Agassiz proposed the concept of ice age in 1837. And this age actually existed long time ago. However, what we must may heed is that even if Agassiz did not propose the concept of ice age, the fact does not change that ice age still existed. It is not that because Agassiz proposed the concept of ice age, that age came into being. Hence, existence of ice age has no bearing on the proposal of the concept. Hence, we have two independent actions here between which sequencing is just not required.

Error Analysis:
1. Since existence of ice age is a universal fact and did not depend upon the proposal of its concept, use of “had existed” is incorrect. We need simple past tense here.
2. In the presence of “now” already, “currently” is redundant.

POE:

Choice A: in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas: Incorrect for the reasons stated above.

Choice B: in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas: Correct. Simple past tense establishes the fact that ice age did exist.

Choice C: when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate: Incorrect. The temperate areas are still there. Using past tense “were” is incorrect.

Choice D: when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas: Incorrect. Same verb tense error as in Choice A.

Choice E: when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate: Incorrect. The phrasing is not correct here. It should be “areas that are now temperate”.

PS – Use of both “in what” and “when” is correct in the context of this sentence.

1. Use past perfect tense only to establish sequencing between two related events.
2. Avoid redundancy in answer choices.
3. Be wary of the changes in the word that appear in the original sentence. These changes may lead to change in the meaning.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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28 Oct 2012, 10:33
Thanks Shraddha. Quick question is use of "current temperate areas" in option D also incorrect? (Current and temperate both being adjectives)
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29 Oct 2012, 08:40
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

Is there any rule or advisable guidance about usage of 'when' vs. 'in which'.

OG 13 Q

thanks!
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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29 Oct 2012, 09:21
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Valentino99 wrote:
Hello,

Is there any rule or advisable guidance about usage of 'when' vs. 'in which'.

OG 13 Q:

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

thanks!

Both are used to refer to a timeframe. However 'when' would usually be preceeded by a comma (similar to which, who, where etc. indicating a non- essential clause). In which (a prepositional phrase) would not be preceeded by comma and does indicate an essential clause.
Hope it helps.
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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29 Oct 2012, 09:28
I would say, "when" can refer to time frame, period and physical existence. On the other hand, "in which" would rather mean like here in aforesaid sentence, means - concept, virtual existence or some kind of pondering. Just my 50 cent, the way I understand it.
Please, correct me, if I went awry
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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29 Oct 2012, 14:47
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it essentially boils down to B or E

the split is not bxn WHEN and IN WHICH, rather the placement of adverb NOW, which is incorrect in E

had E been re written as :

modified E : when great ice sheets existed in areas ......that are NOW temperate : this would have been correct n essentially the same as B ( both in terms of structure & meaning ).

But in original E : when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

when X existed in areas NOW........ doesn't make any sense

ideally, NOW should be modifying AREAS but the way it is placed n left out of the clause ( that are temperate ) ,seems to wrongly modify WHEN X EXISTED ie when icesheets existed

Hence B wins n E melts away.
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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29 Oct 2012, 22:32
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i am trying to come up with some examples :

1. Gmatclub is a forum IN WHICH all my queries get sorted ......... In which precisely points towards forums ie acts/does the job of a more pointed WHERE

in the above, guess we cannot use WHEN

2. the story dates back to an era IN WHICH practise of witchcraft was in random.............. IN WHICH modifies era and acts in the same way as WHEN

and thus these 2 are replaceable

the story dates back to an era WHEN the practise of witchcraft was in random.

Both the above sentences essentially conveys the same intent.

3. WHEN the sun sets, the spooks come out

again here a mere time is described, where guess we cannot use IN WHICH

my understanding
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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12 Jan 2013, 09:34
Meaning in B is not illogic
but
when A and B stand together, we realize that meaning in A is the intended meaning

what I want to say is that

whenever we see both logical choices/meanings, we have to USE COMMON SENSE TO realize which is intended meaning

is my thinking correct.?

the above situation happen many times on og questions. the easy time is when the wrong answer contain illogic meaning which can be realize soon.

pls comment on my rule above

this is hard questions.
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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04 Apr 2013, 12:48
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland,far outside the range of present -day glaciers,led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A)In which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.
(B)in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas.
(C)when great ice sheets existed where were areas now temperate
(D)when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

Need explanation of every option
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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04 Apr 2013, 13:03
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland,far outside the range of present -day glaciers,led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

First of all: "an age when" is incorrect. out C D E
Between A and B there is a verb tense difference
A had existed : this is used to express an action that took place over a long period of time BEFORE another action STOPPED IT. This is not the case
B existed : CORRECT
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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04 Apr 2013, 21:07
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You can use either when or in which..

This question is very well explained on Manhattangmat forum. Please click this link to see the thread http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/ice-polished-rocks-mgmat-sc-text-clarification-t10320.html
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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29 Apr 2013, 11:03
Hi Gyanendra,

Here is my response to your question on this official sentence.

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

Meaning Analysis:

In 1837, Louis Agassiz studied the ice-polished rocks of his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers. These studies led him to propose the concept of ice age. During this age, great sheets of ice existed in the areas that are now temperate areas.

Error Analysis:

1. Use of past perfect tense “had existed” is incorrect in this sentence because we use past perfect tense to denote the earlier event in presence of two past events. Past perfect tense establishes the time sequencing between the two past events. However, here we do not have two events that are related to each other in regards to the timing of their happening. The fact that the ice age existed does not depend on Agassiz’s studies. Also, the temperate areas exist in the present time. So there is no question of using past perfect tense in the sentence.

2. Use of “now” and “currently” together leads to redundancy error.

PoE:
(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas: Incorrect for the reasons stated above.

(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas: Correct. This choices use the correct verb tense – simple past.

(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate: Incorrect. This choice is awkward and non- precise.

(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas: Incorrect.
i. This choice repeats the verb tense error of choice A.
ii. “Current” should actually be “currently”.

(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate: Incorrect. Placement of “now” is not correct.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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01 May 2013, 19:56
All duplicate threads on this topic have been merged.

Please check and follow the Guidelines for Posting in Verbal GMAT forum before posting anything.
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink]

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06 May 2013, 05:36
Curly05 wrote:
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

[Reveal] Spoiler:
It's either B or E. Is it due to idioms( in which vs. when) or since the age is in the past; it is unlikely that the great ice sheets existed in areas now. I know diction is important on GMAT. In ( now) temperate areas , does now function as an adjective?

Victor

OG #13 says that A is wrong because of 2 reasons:
1) now / currently
2) had existed should be existed.

To me it is perfectly after past tense LED.

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