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His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land,

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His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 30 Jun 2003, 10:28
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His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

[Reveal] Spoiler:
It's either B or E. Is it due to idioms( in which vs. when) or since the age is in the past; it is unlikely that the great ice sheets existed in areas now. I know diction is important on GMAT. In ( now) temperate areas , does now function as an adjective?

Victor
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 13 Sep 2013, 22:46
Hi Shraddha,

please answer by below query:

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

Meaning: the present Temperate areas had great ice sheets, acc. to studies done by LA


Error Analysis : past perfect is to be used when two related past events are there. Not seen in this case

POE: was not able to do completely.


I somehow got the answer, but i was not able to confidently apply three step process..pls help
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 17 Sep 2013, 07:59
Expert's post
shreys9 wrote:
Hi Shraddha,

please answer by below query:

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

Meaning: the present Temperate areas had great ice sheets, acc. to studies done by LA


Error Analysis : past perfect is to be used when two related past events are there. Not seen in this case

POE: was not able to do completely.


I somehow got the answer, but i was not able to confidently apply three step process..pls help



Hi Shrey,

The complete solution to this question has already been presented by Shraddha. You can find it in the previous page of this thread.
For your convenience, this is the link to that post.
http://gmatclub.com/forum/his-studies-of-ice-polished-rocks-in-his-alpine-home-land-1363-100.html#p1083257

Hope this helps! :)

Regards,
Krishna
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, [#permalink] New post 26 Oct 2013, 02:29
Expert's post
egmat wrote:
Hi All,

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

Image

It is very important to understand the meaning of this sentence in order to ascertain whether we need past perfect tense in this sentence or not. In 1837, Louis Agassiz proposed the concept of an age in which great ice sheets existed in those areas that are now temperate areas. His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers led Agassiz to make this proposal.

Image

We use past perfect tense to establish sequencing, that is to show out of two events in the past, which event took place earlier and which took place later. It is true that there are two events in this sentence and both took place in the past – “led” and “had existed”.
However when we use past perfect tense, we must keep in mind that in order to establish sequencing between the two events, they must be related. There should be some bearing of one event on the other.
In this sentence, Agassiz proposed the concept of ice age in 1837. And this age actually existed long time ago. However, what we must may heed is that even if Agassiz did not propose the concept of ice age, the fact does not change that ice age still existed. It is not that because Agassiz proposed the concept of ice age, that age came into being. Hence, existence of ice age has no bearing on the proposal of the concept. Hence, we have two independent actions here between which sequencing is just not required.

Error Analysis:
1. Since existence of ice age is a universal fact and did not depend upon the proposal of its concept, use of “had existed” is incorrect. We need simple past tense here.
2. In the presence of “now” already, “currently” is redundant.

POE:

Choice A: in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas: Incorrect for the reasons stated above.

Choice B: in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas: Correct. Simple past tense establishes the fact that ice age did exist.

Choice C: when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate: Incorrect. The temperate areas are still there. Using past tense “were” is incorrect.

Choice D: when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas: Incorrect. Same verb tense error as in Choice A.

Choice E: when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate: Incorrect. The phrasing is not correct here. It should be “areas that are now temperate”.

PS – Use of both “in what” and “when” is correct in the context of this sentence.

Image

1. Use past perfect tense only to establish sequencing between two related events.
2. Avoid redundancy in answer choices.
3. Be wary of the changes in the word that appear in the original sentence. These changes may lead to change in the meaning.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
Shraddha


Hi Shraddha,
Here after 'age', don't you think 'when' is a better usage rather than 'in which' as 'age' indicates a time period in this question I think and when it's time 'when' suits better than anything else...
So the reason we select B over other choices is because rest of the options have other major errors. Right?

Look forward to hearing from you.

P.S: I actually chose E as B appeared to me as verbose :-(
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 30 Oct 2013, 04:58
Curly05 wrote:
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate



No doubt for B ==> only clear and precise sentence :) All of the other choices are wordy or not grammaticaly correct!

Answer: B
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, [#permalink] New post 05 Nov 2013, 22:53
Expert's post
bagdbmba wrote:
egmat wrote:
Hi All,

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

Image

It is very important to understand the meaning of this sentence in order to ascertain whether we need past perfect tense in this sentence or not. In 1837, Louis Agassiz proposed the concept of an age in which great ice sheets existed in those areas that are now temperate areas. His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers led Agassiz to make this proposal.

Image

We use past perfect tense to establish sequencing, that is to show out of two events in the past, which event took place earlier and which took place later. It is true that there are two events in this sentence and both took place in the past – “led” and “had existed”.
However when we use past perfect tense, we must keep in mind that in order to establish sequencing between the two events, they must be related. There should be some bearing of one event on the other.
In this sentence, Agassiz proposed the concept of ice age in 1837. And this age actually existed long time ago. However, what we must may heed is that even if Agassiz did not propose the concept of ice age, the fact does not change that ice age still existed. It is not that because Agassiz proposed the concept of ice age, that age came into being. Hence, existence of ice age has no bearing on the proposal of the concept. Hence, we have two independent actions here between which sequencing is just not required.

Error Analysis:
1. Since existence of ice age is a universal fact and did not depend upon the proposal of its concept, use of “had existed” is incorrect. We need simple past tense here.
2. In the presence of “now” already, “currently” is redundant.

POE:

Choice A: in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas: Incorrect for the reasons stated above.

Choice B: in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas: Correct. Simple past tense establishes the fact that ice age did exist.

Choice C: when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate: Incorrect. The temperate areas are still there. Using past tense “were” is incorrect.

Choice D: when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas: Incorrect. Same verb tense error as in Choice A.

Choice E: when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate: Incorrect. The phrasing is not correct here. It should be “areas that are now temperate”.

PS – Use of both “in what” and “when” is correct in the context of this sentence.

Image

1. Use past perfect tense only to establish sequencing between two related events.
2. Avoid redundancy in answer choices.
3. Be wary of the changes in the word that appear in the original sentence. These changes may lead to change in the meaning.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
Shraddha


Hi Shraddha,
Here after 'age', don't you think 'when' is a better usage rather than 'in which' as 'age' indicates a time period in this question I think and when it's time 'when' suits better than anything else...
So the reason we select B over other choices is because rest of the options have other major errors. Right?

Look forward to hearing from you.

P.S: I actually chose E as B appeared to me as verbose :-(


Hi Shradhha,
Any update on this?

Would much appreciate your feedback.
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 28 Nov 2013, 06:26
guys dont we need a past participle here?

in A there is redundancy with NOW and currently, but with B, are the tenses proper?
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, [#permalink] New post 05 Dec 2013, 09:17
Expert's post
bagdbmba wrote:
egmat wrote:

PS – Use of both “in what” and “when” is correct in the context of this sentence.


Hi Shraddha,
Here after 'age', don't you think 'when' is a better usage rather than 'in which' as 'age' indicates a time period in this question I think and when it's time 'when' suits better than anything else...
So the reason we select B over other choices is because rest of the options have other major errors. Right?

Look forward to hearing from you.

P.S: I actually chose E as B appeared to me as verbose :-(



Hi bagdbmba,

Firstly, there was a typo in the original post.

The correct sentence is Use of both “in which” and “when” is correct in the context of this sentence.

It is also mentioned in the Official explanation for this sentence that both of them can be used interchangeably in this sentence.

So both "in which" and "when" are equally good in this sentence and there is no error with their usage.

The errors in the incorrect options were already pointed out in the previous explanation.

Hope this helps. :)

Regards,
Krishna
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 07 Jan 2014, 07:46
Curly05 wrote:
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

[Reveal] Spoiler:
It's either B or E. Is it due to idioms( in which vs. when) or since the age is in the past; it is unlikely that the great ice sheets existed in areas now. I know diction is important on GMAT. In ( now) temperate areas , does now function as an adjective?

Victor



"age... in which" is correct.. So that leaves us with A/B.. "now currently" is reduntant, so we go with B.
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 18 Apr 2014, 20:42
Stuck between B and E and I chose concision to pick B. Why is E wrong? [b]I can't really tell what "now that are temperate" in E is modifying?[/b]
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 20 Apr 2014, 07:16
After "an age", "in which" and "when" are not really distinguished in GMAT, so we can't use them as a split.
A) Wrong since we don't need both "now" and "currently" (same meaning)
C) "where there are areas now temperate" is wordy and redundant. Same reason for E.

Leave with B and D.

I think B is better coz there is no solid reason to support the past perfect in D. Remember that past perfect is used to describe an event that happens before another in the past. The description "an age in which ..." merely provides details about a single period rather than a series of events required for past perfect.
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 21 Apr 2014, 00:14
Curly05 wrote:
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

[Reveal] Spoiler:
It's either B or E. Is it due to idioms( in which vs. when) or since the age is in the past; it is unlikely that the great ice sheets existed in areas now. I know diction is important on GMAT. In ( now) temperate areas , does now function as an adjective?

Victor




I have doubt regarding tense usage in the question.

My meaning analysis of the sentence is :-

1.Studies conducted by Louis in his homeland led him to propose in 1837 a concept of an age .
2.In this age great ice sheets existed in area that are now temperate area.

POE done in original sentence:-

1. I don't see error in tense usage , but due to redundancy now / currently.Option A is wrong.

How do I work on the tense and see no error:
1. As per my understanding of egmat course on tense :

-On the timeline , studies are done in the past , in 1837 ( past time ) Louis proposes the concept of an age.
- In this age ice sheets existed in areas.

Usage of past perfect tense as per me is Ok because :-

1. That age has now ceased to exist . so if we use simple past existed it would not convey the meaning.

1. Also I want clarity on the usage of ín which 'and 'when'

My current understanding is : Use 'When 'to refer time /time period.

Expert opinion would be great on each answer choice.
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 22 Apr 2014, 23:21
Expert's post
purnima wrote:
Curly05 wrote:
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

[Reveal] Spoiler:
It's either B or E. Is it due to idioms( in which vs. when) or since the age is in the past; it is unlikely that the great ice sheets existed in areas now. I know diction is important on GMAT. In ( now) temperate areas , does now function as an adjective?

Victor




I have doubt regarding tense usage in the question.

My meaning analysis of the sentence is :-

1.Studies conducted by Louis in his homeland led him to propose in 1837 a concept of an age .
2.In this age great ice sheets existed in area that are now temperate area.

POE done in original sentence:-

1. I don't see error in tense usage , but due to redundancy now / currently.Option A is wrong.

How do I work on the tense and see no error:
1. As per my understanding of egmat course on tense :

-On the timeline , studies are done in the past , in 1837 ( past time ) Louis proposes the concept of an age.
- In this age ice sheets existed in areas.

Usage of past perfect tense as per me is Ok because :-

1. That age has now ceased to exist . so if we use simple past existed it would not convey the meaning.

1. Also I want clarity on the usage of ín which 'and 'when'

My current understanding is : Use 'When 'to refer time /time period.

Expert opinion would be great on each answer choice.


Dear Purnima,
Thank you for your query. :)
Now as mentioned by Shraddha in her post, the use of the Past Perfect Tense is not appropriate in choice A.

As pointed out by Shraddha as well, we use the past perfect tense to establish or emphasize sequencing, that is to show which event took place earlier and which took place later. And mind you, these two events have to have a direct bearing on each other. For example:

• By the time I reached the theater, my friend had left from there.

In the above sentence, my friend left before I reached. I need to stress this sequencing as both the actions are related in terms of the direct impact the earlier action has on the latter . Because of my friends’ leaving earlier and my reaching later, it can be understood that we could not meet. However, does it make sense to use the Past Perfect tense when I say the following:

• Emily found out in 2001 that India had gotten its independence in the year 1947.

Now, arguably India’s independence happened before Emily found out about the same. But do the two events have a direct bearing on each other? Nope! Emily could have found out that fact about India’s history some other time as well, say in 1995. Does the timing of India’s independence and the timing of Emily’s finding out have a direct bearing on each other? No, they don’t! Do you need to emphasize or clarify the sequence of events here? No, you don’t!

Now, in the sentence at hand, it is true that there are two events that are set in different time-periods in the past. But my questions remain the same : Do we need to emphasize or clarify the timing of these events in terms of which event happened earlier and which happened later? Does the timing of the first event have a direct bearing on the second event?

As regards the following analysis by you:

That age has now ceased to exist . so if we use simple past existed it would not convey the meaning.

Why wouldn’t simple-past convey the meaning that the ice-age doesn’t exist anymore? What is the meaning when one says the following:

• We all boast of an era in which calm and peace existed among the various sects of the religion.

Now from the above sentence, is it not clear that the same calm and peace ceased to exist after that era?

Moving on, as mentioned by Krishna above, both “when” and “in which” can be used to modify time elements. However, if you observe, typically “in which” is used to modify longer periods of time, whereas “when” is used for relatively shorter time periods. Accordingly, you’ll see nouns such as “age” and “era” are normally modified by “in which”.

As regards posting analysis for each and every choice, Shraddha has already posted a detailed reply above. Please have a look at the same. In case you still have some questions, please feel free to post them here. However, when you do so, please make sure that you post your analysis of the various choices along with the same. We’ll take our discussion forward from there. :)

Regards,
Neeti.
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 23 Apr 2014, 00:03
purnima wrote:
How do I work on the tense and see no error:
1. As per my understanding of egmat course on tense :

-On the timeline , studies are done in the past , in 1837 ( past time ) Louis proposes the concept of an age.
- In this age ice sheets existed in areas.

This might not be a correct analysis. Tense usage here is "not" dictated by when Louis Agassiz conducted studies; the sentence is about following two events:

(I) an age in which great ice sheets existed/had existed
(II) In those areas (where great ice sheets earlier existed), now there are temperate areas

Please note that the basic usage of past perfect is when there are two things, "both of which" have happened in the "past". In this case, (II) has "not" happened in the past (temperate areas "still" exist); so (II) did not happen in the past.

So, the usage of past perfect is not correct.
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sequencing [#permalink] New post 23 Jun 2014, 09:15
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine
homeland, far outside the range of present-day
glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the
concept of an age in which great ice sheets had
existed in now currently temperate areas.
(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now
currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now
temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were
areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current
temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that
are temperate

In above question, the 'great ice sheets existed' EVEN BEFORE Louis Agassiz studies 'led' him to propose the concept. So, why answer B is correct when correct verb tense showing sequence of events is 'had existed'.
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Re: sequencing [#permalink] New post 23 Jun 2014, 09:27
Expert's post
gennia wrote:
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine
homeland, far outside the range of present-day
glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the
concept of an age in which great ice sheets had
existed in now currently temperate areas.
(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now
currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now
temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were
areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current
temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that
are temperate

In above question, the 'great ice sheets existed' EVEN BEFORE Louis Agassiz studies 'led' him to propose the concept. So, why answer B is correct when correct verb tense showing sequence of events is 'had existed'.



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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 24 Jun 2014, 08:19
Expert's post
gennia wrote:
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine
homeland, far outside the range of present-day
glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the
concept of an age in which great ice sheets had
existed in now currently temperate areas.
(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now
currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now
temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were
areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current
temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that
are temperate

In above question, the 'great ice sheets existed' EVEN BEFORE Louis Agassiz studies 'led' him to propose the concept. So, why answer B is correct when correct verb tense showing sequence of events is 'had existed'.


Hi there,

Thanks for posting your doubt here. :-)

The reason why usage of past perfect tense "had existed" is incorrect in Choice A is that the two events that are mentioned n the sentence, i. e. "led" and "had existed", are not related to each or has no bearing on each other.

Even if Agassiz did not propose his theory, the fact remains that the ice sheets still existed. If in place of Agassiz, somebody else would have proposed the theory at some other point in time, still the fact that the ice sheets existed would remain unchanged. So you see, there is no relationship between these two events that needs to be expressed by using past perfect tense.

We use past perfect tense only for those two past events that have some effect on the occurrence of each other. For example:

My friend had left the theater by the time I reached.

Here use of past perfect tense is needed because the two events are related. Because of my reaching late, I could not meet my friend because the friend had already left. But this is not the case with the official sentence. The ice sheets existed irrespective of anyone proposing any theory.

hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
SJ
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 26 Jun 2014, 14:37
Hi all,

First post here. But I think a lot of emphasis was put into in which vs. when. I looked at that split and decided I wanted to pick another split that I was more familiar with. I saw had existed vs. existed. In the had existed, there is no linear timeline that is dependent on the the great ice sheets existing.

led Louis to propose that ice sheets existed
led Louis to propose that ice sheets had existed

The simple past is sufficient in this case because ice sheets existing has no dependency on Louis proposing anything.

That's how I look at it, hope that helps...
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His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 27 Sep 2014, 01:07
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas - currently should be used
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate - now is not modifying are temprate

To refer to time long back (ages , centuries , decades) we prefer to use inwhich instead of where. However, both can be used.
Now and currently cant be used together in a single sentence. Both are redundant.
had cant be used because there is no past event before which ice sheet existed. Led to propose is not relevant to ice sheet.


Hence B is the answer
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His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land,   [#permalink] 27 Sep 2014, 01:07
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