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His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land,

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His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, [#permalink] New post 30 Jun 2003, 10:28
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His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

[Reveal] Spoiler:
It's either B or E. Is it due to idioms( in which vs. when) or since the age is in the past; it is unlikely that the great ice sheets existed in areas now. I know diction is important on GMAT. In ( now) temperate areas , does now function as an adjective?

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Re: SC - Rocks!! [#permalink] New post 08 Mar 2009, 19:17
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OA is B.

When "age" means some period, use of pronoun reference "in which" is correct. But referring to particular age i.e. at age 18, "when" is correct.
Ex: I was 18 when I met my consort. - referring to particular time
We are living in an age in which art galleries are more popular than theme parks. -- referring to a period

So, I eliminated to A and B and went with A. I assumed that "led" is in past form so must be preceded by exist (past verb). botirvoy and icandy are correct. "In which" starts new clause here so any clause after pronoun reference creates new fragment and, thus, jeopardizes the chronology, if any. B is correctly using "existed" as standalone past action.

Thank you
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, [#permalink] New post 08 May 2012, 09:39
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Hi All,

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

Image

It is very important to understand the meaning of this sentence in order to ascertain whether we need past perfect tense in this sentence or not. In 1837, Louis Agassiz proposed the concept of an age in which great ice sheets existed in those areas that are now temperate areas. His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers led Agassiz to make this proposal.

Image

We use past perfect tense to establish sequencing, that is to show out of two events in the past, which event took place earlier and which took place later. It is true that there are two events in this sentence and both took place in the past – “led” and “had existed”.
However when we use past perfect tense, we must keep in mind that in order to establish sequencing between the two events, they must be related. There should be some bearing of one event on the other.
In this sentence, Agassiz proposed the concept of ice age in 1837. And this age actually existed long time ago. However, what we must may heed is that even if Agassiz did not propose the concept of ice age, the fact does not change that ice age still existed. It is not that because Agassiz proposed the concept of ice age, that age came into being. Hence, existence of ice age has no bearing on the proposal of the concept. Hence, we have two independent actions here between which sequencing is just not required.

Error Analysis:
1. Since existence of ice age is a universal fact and did not depend upon the proposal of its concept, use of “had existed” is incorrect. We need simple past tense here.
2. In the presence of “now” already, “currently” is redundant.

POE:

Choice A: in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas: Incorrect for the reasons stated above.

Choice B: in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas: Correct. Simple past tense establishes the fact that ice age did exist.

Choice C: when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate: Incorrect. The temperate areas are still there. Using past tense “were” is incorrect.

Choice D: when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas: Incorrect. Same verb tense error as in Choice A.

Choice E: when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate: Incorrect. The phrasing is not correct here. It should be “areas that are now temperate”.

PS – Use of both “in what” and “when” is correct in the context of this sentence.

Image

1. Use past perfect tense only to establish sequencing between two related events.
2. Avoid redundancy in answer choices.
3. Be wary of the changes in the word that appear in the original sentence. These changes may lead to change in the meaning.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
Shraddha
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Re: SC:Ice rocks [#permalink] New post 26 Apr 2004, 15:57
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mbamantra wrote:
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home-
land, far outside the range of present-day glaciers,
led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of
an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now
currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now
currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are
now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were
areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current
temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that
are temperate


1. "when" is incorrect because it suggests that Louis proposed the concept when great ice sheets had existed. This completely changes the original meaning.

2. "in which" correctly explains what that age was like.

3. "now currently" is incorrect...either use now or currently...using both of them is redundant usage.

That only leaves us Choice B and IMO, its the best answer
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Re: ice age [#permalink] New post 16 Feb 2004, 00:55
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kpadma wrote:
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine home land, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate


B is best

C,D,E change the meaning of the sentence..

it suggests that the proposal was made "when" the great ice sheets existed..thats incorrect

A .... now ..currently ...using the two together is redundant

B is best

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Re: MGMAT SC a question about verbs [#permalink] New post 30 Sep 2009, 11:19
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Are you asking because there are two verbs? [led and (had)existed] You might be thinking that one event preceded the other. If so, be careful about linking the two, as they are used quite differently here.

The subject of "led" is "his studies." The subject of "existed" is "ice sheets." Not only that, but the two verbs are found in different clauses of the sentence. The main sentence includes the main verb "led": His studies ... led Louis Agasiz ...to propose the concept. "The concept" is the object of the main clause. We find "existed" deep within a modifier of a modifier of the object. This structure alone implies that the ice sheets existed before Agasiz was led to propose the concept.

A rule of thumb is that if you can use the simple past and still convey the meaning accurately, you shouldn't need to use the past perfect tense.

It would be different if the ice sheets did two things, at different times. For example:
His Studies led Louis Agasiz to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now temperate areas and melted gradually over the course of a thousand years.
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Re: Ice Polished Rocks Past Perfect [#permalink] New post 02 Feb 2012, 21:35
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gmatpunjabi wrote:
Thank You for the post, but I am still trying to figure out why is Past Perfect Not Required in this case

To understand this question better, i think we should know the guiding principles behind the usage of past perfect.
It is well known that part perfect should be used only to show a sequence of events with simple past.
The train had left when we arrived. ( a sequence of events is mandatory to be shown otherwise it changes the meaning)
The train left when we arrived. (means train left after we arrived at the station)

and past perfect should not be used when the sequence is not required to be shown.
The Train left before we reached the railway station.( before is clearly showing sequence of events)

The train left after we reached the station( after is showing sequence of events)
Now let's see our question
gmatpunjabi wrote:
in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in what are now temperate areas

now the sequence of events can be easily distinguished because one event is happening in past and one in present.
Do we still need past perfect???
:no

past perfect to be used only with simple past and that too when a sequence is required to be shown.
hope this expl helps.
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sentence correction OG th ed. question number 59 [#permalink] New post 30 Jan 2008, 19:39
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His Studies of ice-polished rocks in his alpine homeland, far outside the range of present day glaciers, led LOuis Agasiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age which great ice sheets had existed in now currently tempereate areas

a. same
b.in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas.
c. when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
d. when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
e. when great ice sheers existed in areas now that are temperate

The correct answer is B. I [b]chose A. However, looking back I can see that my answer was redundant. BUt as far as the verb tense I am very confused still. I know that in past perfect - if the does not exist anymore and interrupted by something else in past is indeed past perfect. THis requires HAD. HOw did I mess up on the verb tense?

I thought I knew difference between past perfect and present perfect untill now. what happened.?
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Re: sentence correction OG th ed. question number 59 [#permalink] New post 30 Jan 2008, 19:46
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enginpasa1 wrote:
His Studies of ice-polished rocks in his alpine homeland, far outside the range of present day glaciers, led LOuis Agasiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age which great ice sheets had existed in now currently tempereate areas

a. same
b.in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas.
c. when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
d. when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
e. when great ice sheers existed in areas now that are temperate

The correct answer is B. I [b]chose A. However, looking back I can see that my answer was redundant. BUt as far as the verb tense I am very confused still. I know that in past perfect - if the does not exist anymore and interrupted by something else in past is indeed past perfect. THis requires HAD. HOw did I mess up on the verb tense?

I thought I knew difference between past perfect and present perfect untill now. what happened.?


FYI: youd get more people responding to this if you didnt put the OA in the question. If you do at least make it white so we cannot see it. It ruins the problem. Also please underline the part in question.

Thanks.

I dont see any real difference between when and in which here so ima leave that to someone else who can better answer.

However,

AD: past perfect not needed.
C: where there were... this changes the meaning
E: awkward...

B is much better.
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His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, [#permalink] New post 07 Mar 2009, 09:42
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His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

Is "had" necessary here? Why?
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Re: ice polished rocks [#permalink] New post 14 Oct 2010, 01:47
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Baten80 wrote:
70. His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.
(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate


Please tell why does the answer require simple past tense?

The answer is B,because of two reasons: the use of "in which" and the use of "simple past tense".
We require simple past tense here instead of past perfect because the use of past perfect is not necessary here. We use past perfect to emphasisze the sequence of actions in the past. In this case, it is already presumed that great ice sheets existed before the current temperate areas. So we do not need past perfect to emphasize its occurence as it is already well known. Use perfect tenses only when necessary as GMAT prefers simplicity.
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Re: SC - Rocks!! [#permalink] New post 22 Sep 2011, 22:28
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priyankur_saha@ml.com wrote:
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

Is "had" necessary here? Why?


Answer: B
Strike 1 - 'an age in which...' is correct. To check, rephrase --> 'great ice sheets existed in the [ice] age'. Eliminate C, D, and E.
Strike 2 - Eliminate A

RULE
When to use 'had existed' (i.e. past perfect):
i. there must be two events
ii. both events are in the past
iii. use 'had existed' with the earlier of the two past events.
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Re: Ice Polished Rocks Past Perfect [#permalink] New post 03 Feb 2012, 19:56
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gmatpunjabi wrote:
His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in what are now temperate areas
(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in what are now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

Why is Past Perfect Not Required in this Question?

Also why is Answer D wrong?

Thanks in Advance!


Past perfect is not need because the time in the sentence is not necessary in demonstrating the moment of the sentence that express the ice sheet exited before the proposal of Louis Agassiz.

In choice D, the meaning is different with the correct choice B (Ice sheet existed in the area now is temperate one, before that, it is not temperate area, but ice sheet area). Choice D expresses that ice sheet in current temperate area. Before that, we do not know what kind of that area, may be temperate/tropic/polar ice, etc.
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Re: Ice Polished Rocks Past Perfect [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2012, 18:15
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gmatpunjabi wrote:
Thank you for your post. I am sorry I do not understand the distinction you are drawing in the meanings of Choice B and D

read this...hope this clears the doubt.....

rajeevrks27 wrote:
gmatpunjabi wrote:
Thank You for the post, but I am still trying to figure out why is Past Perfect Not Required in this case

To understand this question better, i think we should know the guiding principles behind the usage of past perfect.
It is well known that part perfect should be used only to show a sequence of events with simple past.
The train had left when we arrived. ( a sequence of events is mandatory to be shown otherwise it changes the meaning)
The train left when we arrived. (means train left after we arrived at the station)

and past perfect should not be used when the sequence is not required to be shown.
The Train left before we reached the railway station.( before is clearly showing sequence of events)

The train left after we reached the station( after is showing sequence of events)
Now let's see our question
gmatpunjabi wrote:
in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in what are now temperate areas

now the sequence of events can be easily distinguished because one event is happening in past and one in present.
Do we still need past perfect???
:no

past perfect to be used only with simple past and that too when a sequence is required to be shown.
hope this expl helps.

That's my 2 cents...
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, [#permalink] New post 10 Mar 2012, 11:34
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I picked B for this question:

There is no problem with either "in which" or "when." This comes directly from Manhattan SC 4th Edition on Page 88 - Chapter 6.

The problem really lies with the tense. Past perfect tense is not necessary here because the ice sheets' existence is not directly related to Louis Aggassiz studies that led to his proposal. I understand that without the existence of the ice sheets, his studies wouldn't be complete in the first place. However, the existence of the ice sheets didn't influence his decision to propose the concept.

A. Past perfect tense is incorrect

B. Clear and concise. The appropriate tense is used - "existed" for the ice sheets and "are now" to state current situation.

C. The use of the modifier "where" is incorrect. It seems to be modifying ice sheets. "Where" should be used to modify places. Also, the use of the simple past tense "were" is incorrect because we are trying to describe the current situation.

D. Past perfect tense is incorrect. Also, this answer choice doesn't describe the comparison correctly. It seems to suggest that the ice sheets existed in current temperate areas. What does that even mean?

E. I felt that that wording could have been better in this answer choice. Instead of "in areas now that are temperate," it should be "in areas that are now temperate."
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, [#permalink] New post 23 Mar 2012, 11:45
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B is right

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas ( now + current. redundant)
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas. correct
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate. "were areas" is incorrect. The areas must still exist.
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas. current temperate should be currently temperate
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate. should be "that are now"

B by POE
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Re: 'when' vs. 'in which' [#permalink] New post 29 Oct 2012, 14:47
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it essentially boils down to B or E

the split is not bxn WHEN and IN WHICH, rather the placement of adverb NOW, which is incorrect in E

had E been re written as :

modified E : when great ice sheets existed in areas ......that are NOW temperate : this would have been correct n essentially the same as B ( both in terms of structure & meaning ).

But in original E : when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

when X existed in areas NOW........ doesn't make any sense

ideally, NOW should be modifying AREAS but the way it is placed n left out of the clause ( that are temperate ) ,seems to wrongly modify WHEN X EXISTED ie when icesheets existed

Hence B wins n E melts away.
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Re: 'when' vs. 'in which' [#permalink] New post 29 Oct 2012, 22:32
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i am trying to come up with some examples :

1. Gmatclub is a forum IN WHICH all my queries get sorted ......... In which precisely points towards forums ie acts/does the job of a more pointed WHERE

in the above, guess we cannot use WHEN

2. the story dates back to an era IN WHICH practise of witchcraft was in random.............. IN WHICH modifies era and acts in the same way as WHEN

and thus these 2 are replaceable

the story dates back to an era WHEN the practise of witchcraft was in random.

Both the above sentences essentially conveys the same intent.

3. WHEN the sun sets, the spooks come out

again here a mere time is described, where guess we cannot use IN WHICH

my understanding
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Re: His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2013, 21:07
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You can use either when or in which..

This question is very well explained on Manhattangmat forum. Please click this link to see the thread http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/ice-polished-rocks-mgmat-sc-text-clarification-t10320.html
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 [#permalink] New post 30 Jun 2003, 20:42
Nope, "now" is not an adjective - the key to the sentence is the "in which."

If using the word "peroid, something has to exist in or within a period. That is why (B) is the best choice here.
  [#permalink] 30 Jun 2003, 20:42
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