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Re: If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) [#permalink]
Great explanation by Bunuel !!
I wish Gmat wouldn't throw such questions on me. :wink:
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Re: If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) [#permalink]
Hi Bunuel,

Please tell me where I am going wrong.
Calculated using the matrix formula to solve the area of the triangle.
\(1/2 [-1 (1-A) + 4 (A-1) +0(1-1)] >15\)
\(A>7\)

Option 1 says A< 3
Hence Statement A is sufficient.

Am I missing something here? :(
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ramgmat wrote:
Hi Bunuel,

Please tell me where I am going wrong.
Calculated using the matrix formula to solve the area of the triangle.
\(1/2 [-1 (1-A) + 4 (A-1) +0(1-1)] >15\)
\(A>7\)

Option 1 says A< 3
Hence Statement A is sufficient.

Am I missing something here? :(


This is a valid approach if you are familiar with the formula which gives the area based on the coordinates of the three vertices of a triangle.

If the vetices of a triangle are: \(A(a_x, a_y)\), \(B(b_x, b_y)\) and \(C(c_x,c_y)\) then the area of ABC is:

\(area=|\frac{a_x(b_y-c_y)+b_x(c_y-a_y)+c_x(a_y-b_y)}{2}|\).

So if we consider: \(A(-1,0)\), \(B(4,0)\), and \(C(0,A)\) then the area would be: \(area=|\frac{-1(0-A)+4(A-0)+0(0-0)}{2}|\) --> \(area=|\frac{5A}{2}|\).

Question: is \(area=|\frac{5A}{2}|>15\) --> is \(|A|>6\).

Statement (1) says A>3, which is not sufficient to say whether \(|A|>6\).

P.S. You made some errors in calculation and also didn't put the area formula in ||.

Hope it helps.
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Re: If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) [#permalink]
Thanks a lot Bunuel! I really appreciate this. :)
I need to be careful of both my calculation as well as my silly mistakes
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Re: If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) [#permalink]
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The answer is B

As in (1) , A<3 , which means A = -3 , -100 , -200 anything --> Not suffcient

From (2) We conclude that the triangle is rt. angled at (0,A)

We can set up the equation as (A-0)/(0-(-1)) * (A-0)/(0-4) = -1 as product of slopes of two perpendicular lines of a rt angled triangle is -1

A= +/- 2 which gives area of the rt angled traingle as 5 sq units < 15 sq units ---> sufficient

Hence Answer is B

Bunuel wrote:
gmat620 wrote:
If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) , is the area of the triangle greater than 15 ?

1. A < 3

2. The triangle is right

Hello friends, I solved this problem but I have a doubt. if we know that triangle is right triangle and hypotenus is 5, can we always safely assume other two sides as 3, 4 without knowing whether other sides are integer or not.
Please help me i have my test 4 days away. Thanks.


First of all right triangle with hypotenuse 5, doesn't mean that we have (3, 4, 5) right triangle. If we are told that values of all sides are integers, then yes: the only integer solution for right triangle with hypotenuse 5 would be (3, 4, 5).

To check this: consider the right triangle with hypotenuse 5 inscribed in circle. We know that a right triangle inscribed in a circle must have its hypotenuse as the diameter of the circle. The reverse is also true: if the diameter of the circle is also the triangle’s hypotenuse, then that triangle is a right triangle.

So ANY point on circumference of a circle with diameter \(5\) would make the right triangle with diameter. Not necessarily sides to be \(3\) and \(4\). For example we can have isosceles right triangle, which would be 45-45-90: and the sides would be \(\frac{5}{\sqrt{2}}\). OR if we have 30-60-90 triangle and hypotenuse is \(5\), sides would be \(2.5\) and \(2.5*\sqrt{3}\). Of course there could be many other combinations.

Back to the original question:
If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) , is the area of the triangle greater than 15?
(1) A < 3 --> two vertices are on the X-axis and the third vertex is on the Y-axis, below the point (0,3). The third vertex could be at (0,1) and the area would be less than 15 OR the third vertex could be at (0,-100) and the area would be more than 15. So not sufficient.

(2) The triangle is right. --> Obviously as the third vertex is on the Y-axis, the right angle must be at the third vertex. Which means the hypotenuse is on X-axis and equals to 5. Again if we consider the circle, the radius mus be 2.5 (half of the hypotenuse/diameter) and the third vertex must be one of two intersections of the circle with Y-axis. We'll get the two specific symmetric points for the third vertex, hence the area would be fixed and defined. Which means that it's possible to answer the question whether the area is more than 15, even not calculating actual value. Sufficient.

Answer: B.

If we want to know how the area could be calculated with the help of statement 2, here you go:

One of the approaches:

The equation of a circle is \((x - a)^2 + (y-b)^2 = r^2\), where \((a,b)\) is the center and \(r\) is the radius.

We know:
\(r=2.5\), as the hypotenuse is 5.
\(a=1.5\) and \(b=0\), as the center is on the X-axis, at the point \((1.5, 0)\), half the way between the (-1, 0) and (4, 0).
We need to determine intersection of the circle with Y-axis, or the point \((0, y)\) for the circle.

So we'll have \((0-1.5)^2 + (y-0)^2 =2.5^2\)

\(y^2=4\) --> \(y=2\) and \(y=-2\). The third vertex is either at the point \((0, 2)\) OR \((0,-2)\). In any case \(Area=2*\frac{5}{2}=5\).
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Re: If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) [#permalink]
Great explanation Bunuel...
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Re: If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) [#permalink]
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from the given info. the base of the triangle is 5 i.e the disantce between
-1 and 4.


for the area to be greater than 15 , 0.5*5*hiegt > 15 ==> hiegt > 6


note that the third vertex(0,A) decides the hieght of the triangle.


Stmnt1. A < 3 ==> A could be 2 (hieght = 2 and answer to the question is NO)
or -10 (hieght = 10 and the anser to the qtn is YES)...hence NOT suff.


stmnt2: the triangle is right


VERY IMPORTANT, USEFUL AND GMAT'S FAVORITE property: the angle on the semi circle is 90, means, if two vertices of
the triangle are on the extreme sides of the diameter and the third is on
the semi circle, then at the third vertex the angle is 90.


Using the above property and the stmnt 2 , we can say that the third verthex
(0,A) is on a semi circle having the diameter connected between (-1,0) and
(4,0) ==> radius of the circle is 5 (distance b/w -1 and 4) / 2 = 2.5


hence the trianlge (right angle) in this semicircle would have the maximum
area = 0.5 * 5 * 2.5 (height=radius) = 6.25 that is < 15 ==> the max area is
< 15 ==> any other possible right angle triangle areas would be < 15 ==>
answer to the question is "NO".


Answer "B".
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Re: If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) [#permalink]
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gmat620 wrote:
If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) , is the area of the triangle greater than 15 ?

1. A < 3

2. The triangle is right

Hello friends, I solved this problem but I have a doubt. if we know that triangle is right triangle and hypotenus is 5, can we always safely assume other two sides as 3, 4 without knowing whether other sides are integer or not.
Please help me i have my test 4 days away. Thanks.


First, your question - No, you cannot assume that the sides are 3 and 4 if you have 5 as hypotenuse. lagomez is right. What if it is 45-45-90 triangle? The sides will not be 3 and 4.
But in this question, you have something more. You know the line on which your third vertex of the triangle will fall.
Attachment:
Ques2.jpg
Ques2.jpg [ 9.29 KiB | Viewed 25964 times ]


There will be only 1 such right triangle so you will be able to say whether the area is greater than 15 or not. You don't need to find the triangle but you know this statement alone is sufficient.
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Re: If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) [#permalink]
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VeritasPrepKarishma wrote:
gmat620 wrote:
If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) , is the area of the triangle greater than 15 ?

1. A < 3

2. The triangle is right

Hello friends, I solved this problem but I have a doubt. if we know that triangle is right triangle and hypotenus is 5, can we always safely assume other two sides as 3, 4 without knowing whether other sides are integer or not.
Please help me i have my test 4 days away. Thanks.


First, your question - No, you cannot assume that the sides are 3 and 4 if you have 5 as hypotenuse. lagomez is right. What if it is 45-45-90 triangle? The sides will not be 3 and 4.
But in this question, you have something more. You know the line on which your third vertex of the triangle will fall.
Attachment:
Ques2.jpg


There will be only 1 such right triangle so you will be able to say whether the area is greater than 15 or not. You don't need to find the triangle but you know this statement alone is sufficient.


Little correction here: actually there will be 2 such right triangles, the second one will be the mirror image of the first (urgent-help-required-87344.html#p656628).
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Re: If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) [#permalink]
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Yes, that's true. But since we are only concerned with area, we can pretty much ignore the mirror images for this statement.
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Re: If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) [#permalink]
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VeritasPrepKarishma wrote:
Yes, that's true. But since we are only concerned with area, we can pretty much ignore the mirror images for this statement.


Yes, that's also true.
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Re (2): there are some properties of right triangles which can be useful.
Please, refer to the attached drawing.

All three right triangles (the large one ABC and the two small ones, ABD and ADC) are similar (it can be easily seen that their angles are congruent).

From the similarity of the triangles ABD and CBA we obtain:
\(\frac{AB}{BC}=\frac{BD}{AB}\), from which it follows that \(AB^2=BD*BC\).
Similarly, using the similar triangles ACD and BCA, we get that \(AC^2=DC*BC\).
We can call it the "leg property", as it expresses the leg of the right triangle in terms of its projection to the hypotenuse and the hypotenuse itself.

In our case, using the above property, we can find the two legs of the right triangle being \(\sqrt{5} = \sqrt{1*5}\) and \(2\sqrt{5}=\sqrt{4*5}\).
Then the height of the right triangle is \(\frac{\sqrt{5}*2\sqrt{5}}{5}=2\) <--- leg * leg / hypotenuse.

But there is another useful property of the right triangle, which helps us find directly the height if we know the two projections of the legs to the hypotenuse.
This property was already mentioned by "bellcurve".
Using the similarity of the triangles ABD and CAD, we can write \(\frac{AD}{DC}=\frac{BD}{AD}\), from which \(AD^2=BD*DC\).
So, in our case, the height of the right triangle is \(\sqrt{1*4}=2\).
We can call this the "height property".

Well, we used to call the above properties "The leg Theorem" and "The height Theorem" back then in Romania. Although I have a PhD in Applied Math, I learned the above stuff in junior high. What I have learned during my graduate studies, cannot really help on the GMAT :O)
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Re: If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) [#permalink]
Hi Bunuel / Karishma -

Can you please confirm whether the below solution is OK?

For any triangle the max area is can be got by for a equilateral triangle.
For any right angled triangle the max area can be got by forming an isosceles triangle.

Since statement B says the triangle is 90* degree triangle and we have the longest length (5) we can check what the max are will be?

isosceles triangle is in the ratio x : x : xroot2
so sides are in the ratio 5/root2 5/root2 and 5
Max area can be 1/2 (5 / root2) * (5 / root 2) = 6.25 (but this answer is not matching with Bunuel's). This will be the max area for any right angled triangle with the hypotenuse of 5.....

Similarly to get the max area of the rectangle we need the smallest perimeter and vice-versa!
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Re: If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) [#permalink]
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Jp27 wrote:
Hi Bunuel / Karishma -

Can you please confirm whether the below solution is OK?

For any triangle the max area is can be got by for a equilateral triangle.
For any right angled triangle the max area can be got by forming an isosceles triangle.


Since statement B says the triangle is 90* degree triangle and we have the longest length (5) we can check what the max are will be?

isosceles triangle is in the ratio x : x : xroot2
so sides are in the ratio 5/root2 5/root2 and 5
Max area can be 1/2 (5 / root2) * (5 / root 2) = 6.25 (but this answer is not matching with Bunuel's). This will be the max area for any right angled triangle with the hypotenuse of 5.....

Similarly to get the max area of the rectangle we need the smallest perimeter and vice-versa!


For any triangle the max area is can be got by for a equilateral triangle. - This is not a correct statement. You can have a "tiny" equilateral triangle or a "huge" right or any other triangle. The correct statement is "For a given perimeter, the maximum area is that of an equilateral triangle."

The second statement isn't correct either:
For any right angled triangle the max area can be got by forming an isosceles triangle.
I think what you meant is "For a right triangle inscribed in a given circle (which means given constant diameter), the maximum area is that of an isosceles right triangle."

For the given question, in fact we don't have to go the either of the above properties.
Lets' denote by B the point with the coordinates (-1,0) and by C the point with the coordinates (4,0).
Since BC lies on the X-axis and A is on the Y-axis, the area of the triangle ABC is given by Base*Height/2, which in this case is 5*Lenght of OA/2, regardles whether A is above or below the X-axis (\(A\) or \(A_1\) in the attached drawing). So, the area of triangle ABC is 5*A/2, where A is the length of OA (consider A>0). Therefore, the question in fact is "Is 5A/2>15?" or"Is A>6?"

(1) Not sufficient, as \(A_1\) can be below -6, in which case A>6, but if A is above 0 and below 3, obviously the area is less than 15.
(2) If the triangle ABC is a right triangle, then necessarily \(\angle{BAC}\) is a right angle and BC is the diameter of the circle in which this triangle can be inscribed. Even if the triangle is isosceles, the height AO cannot be greater than the radius of the circle \(AO_1,\) which is 5/2. So, A is definitely smaller than 6.
Sufficient.

Answer B.
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Re: If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) [#permalink]
EvaJager wrote:
Jp27 wrote:
Hi Bunuel / Karishma -

Can you please confirm whether the below solution is OK?

For any triangle the max area is can be got by for a equilateral triangle.
For any right angled triangle the max area can be got by forming an isosceles triangle.


Since statement B says the triangle is 90* degree triangle and we have the longest length (5) we can check what the max are will be?

isosceles triangle is in the ratio x : x : xroot2
so sides are in the ratio 5/root2 5/root2 and 5
Max area can be 1/2 (5 / root2) * (5 / root 2) = 6.25 (but this answer is not matching with Bunuel's). This will be the max area for any right angled triangle with the hypotenuse of 5.....

Similarly to get the max area of the rectangle we need the smallest perimeter and vice-versa!


For the given question, in fact we don't have to go the either of the above properties.
Lets' denote by B the point with the coordinates (-1,0) and by C the point with the coordinates (4,0).
Since BC lies on the X-axis and A is on the Y-axis, the area of the triangle ABC is given by Base*Height/2, which in this case is 5*Lenght of OA/2, regardles whether A is above or below the X-axis (\(A\) or \(A_1\) in the attached drawing). So, the area of triangle ABC is 5*A/2, where A is the length of OA (consider A>0). Therefore, the question in fact is "Is 5A/2>15?" or"Is A>6?"

(1) Not sufficient, as \(A_1\) can be below -6, in which case A>6, but if A is above 0 and below 3, obviously the area is less than 15.
(2) If the triangle ABC is a right triangle, then necessarily \(\angle{BAC}\) is a right angle and BC is the diameter of the circle in which this triangle can be inscribed. Even if the triangle is isosceles, the height AO cannot be greater than the radius of the circle \(AO_1,\) which is 5/2. So, A is definitely smaller than 6.
Sufficient.

Answer B.


Great Explanation EvaJager. I completely get it now.

EvaJager wrote:

For any triangle the max area is can be got by for a equilateral triangle. - This is not a correct statement. You can have a "tiny" equilateral triangle or a "huge" right or any other triangle. The correct statement is "For a given perimeter, the maximum area is that of an equilateral triangle."

The second statement isn't correct either:
For any right angled triangle the max area can be got by forming an isosceles triangle.
I think what you meant is "For a right triangle inscribed in a given circle (which means given constant diameter), the maximum area is that of an isosceles right triangle."


And yes I didn't phrase it correctly. What i meant was exactly this... "For given fixed perimeter the maximum area is that of an equilateral triangle"

ANd for the 2nd one -> The right triangle with the largest area will be an isosceles right triangle (where both the base and height are of equal length).
Therefore, given the length of longest leg = 5, we can determine the largest possible area of triangle ABC by making it an isosceles right triangle

I hope the above is correct.
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Re: If vertices of a triangle have coordinates (-1,0), (4,0), and (0,A) [#permalink]
Jp27 wrote:
EvaJager wrote:
Jp27 wrote:
Hi Bunuel / Karishma -

Can you please confirm whether the below solution is OK?

For any triangle the max area is can be got by for a equilateral triangle.
For any right angled triangle the max area can be got by forming an isosceles triangle.


Since statement B says the triangle is 90* degree triangle and we have the longest length (5) we can check what the max are will be?

isosceles triangle is in the ratio x : x : xroot2
so sides are in the ratio 5/root2 5/root2 and 5
Max area can be 1/2 (5 / root2) * (5 / root 2) = 6.25 (but this answer is not matching with Bunuel's). This will be the max area for any right angled triangle with the hypotenuse of 5.....

Similarly to get the max area of the rectangle we need the smallest perimeter and vice-versa!


For the given question, in fact we don't have to go the either of the above properties.
Lets' denote by B the point with the coordinates (-1,0) and by C the point with the coordinates (4,0).
Since BC lies on the X-axis and A is on the Y-axis, the area of the triangle ABC is given by Base*Height/2, which in this case is 5*Lenght of OA/2, regardles whether A is above or below the X-axis (\(A\) or \(A_1\) in the attached drawing). So, the area of triangle ABC is 5*A/2, where A is the length of OA (consider A>0). Therefore, the question in fact is "Is 5A/2>15?" or"Is A>6?"

(1) Not sufficient, as \(A_1\) can be below -6, in which case A>6, but if A is above 0 and below 3, obviously the area is less than 15.
(2) If the triangle ABC is a right triangle, then necessarily \(\angle{BAC}\) is a right angle and BC is the diameter of the circle in which this triangle can be inscribed. Even if the triangle is isosceles, the height AO cannot be greater than the radius of the circle \(AO_1,\) which is 5/2. So, A is definitely smaller than 6.
Sufficient.

Answer B.


Great Explanation EvaJager. I completely get it now.

EvaJager wrote:

For any triangle the max area is can be got by for a equilateral triangle. - This is not a correct statement. You can have a "tiny" equilateral triangle or a "huge" right or any other triangle. The correct statement is "For a given perimeter, the maximum area is that of an equilateral triangle."

The second statement isn't correct either:
For any right angled triangle the max area can be got by forming an isosceles triangle.
I think what you meant is "For a right triangle inscribed in a given circle (which means given constant diameter), the maximum area is that of an isosceles right triangle."


And yes I didn't phrase it correctly. What i meant was exactly this... "For given fixed perimeter the maximum area is that of an equilateral triangle"

ANd for the 2nd one -> The right triangle with the largest area will be an isosceles right triangle (where both the base and height are of equal length).
Therefore, given the length of longest leg = 5, we can determine the largest possible area of triangle ABC by making it an isosceles right triangle

I hope the above is correct.


ANd for the 2nd one -> The right triangle with the largest area will be an isosceles right triangle (where both the base and height are of equal length).
In our case, not correct. Or rather, not clearly formulated. BC can be only the hypotenuse of the right triangle, as A must be on the Y-axis. So, we cannot have an isosceles right triangle with both legs 5. If A is not on the Y-axis, with no other restrictions, the area can be as large as we wish.
In this case, the right triangle is uniquely determined (except its mirror image), because the diameter is fixed. A must be at the intersection point of the circle with the Y-axis.
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I thought of the problem in a more simple way, but I'm not sure if its the right thought process...

Basically when I assessed statement 2 I took given that the hypotenuse of the triangle was 5. This means that regardless of what the other 2 sides are, both must be less than 5. So even if the sides were let's say 4.9 * 4.9 ...the multiplication of these two values divided by 2 is always going to give a value less than 15 (especially since 5*5= 25/2 is less than 15).

Bad thought process?
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