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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 04 Feb 2009, 20:24
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I'm not going to go too much into my personal experience more than I have already just because it really won't add more value. I'm happy to speak one off with people if you have very specific questions, but below are some answers to some other questions.

Which banks came on campus, and which did you have to source yourself?
Every top bank came on campus, plus almost every major boutique. The top banks are ones such as GS, JPM, MS, UBS, CS, and others. The top boutiques vary, but they are mainly Greenhill, Jefferies, and several others. If they are in NY they tend to recruit at Columbia. If you are in other areas outside of the northeast, you will most likely have different boutiques but the same big banks. There are no shortage of banks recruiting on campus, just fewer offers.

I'd be curious to understand who you ended up interviewing with during first rounds? How many banks?
No need to answer personally. It will correlate with the amount of unwavering effort you put in. Yes, there is an element of randomness, but getting on closed lists and getting offers reflect tremendous determination and preparation.

How did your efforts during the fall translate to success in getting on closed lists?
Seems to have worked, not really much more to say that has not already been said.

Did you see many differences between how the firms recruit?
Yes for most. If you really take the time to earnestly get to know the recruiters you can tell the differences between firms, but just going to informationals and events is not going to cut it. You need to go above and beyond (see my earlier post).

Who did you interview with during Super Saturdays?
Most of them DO NOT do this, but I can't reveal more than that. Prepare for supers as you would for any other interivew.

Were you looking for a specific product or group, and did that affect how you targeted firms?
Target specific groups that you apply your previous experience to, but that goes for group specifc programs. Rotational programs you should talk about your general IB interest.

Also, how does selecting or interviewing for a specific office work? Say I want to be at MS in SF or CS in LA, for example.
Most firms tend to place you regionally. NY for northeastern schools, Chicago for midwest schools, etc. However, you are not barred for putting in your preference. In my program this summer, there will be students from all around the country. I recommend going for the one that recruits at your school because those are the bankers you will get to know the best. It would have been hard for me to meet bankers in SF being in NY. If you want to work internationally, there are usually UK, Asia, and other trips throughout the year, which I recommend.

Personally, I would love to work in TMT or Energy capital markets or as a M&A generalist. Did you find you needed to specifiy that far or could you be a little more generalist than that?
If the program is group specific then you want to give a preference but you should be able to explain why. Just liking energy is not enough. Also, if you are a career switcher, you might want to leverage what you know from your previous experience instead of trying to switch careers and industry verticals. For example, if you worked in tech before bschool, TMT would be great for you, but if you consulted for industrials then industrials would be more transferable.

If the program is rotational then talk about why you are interested in a variety of coverages and products.

Thanks again for all of your help. If some of that information is too personal, then I can understand you choosing not to share that information.

There were some questions regarding career switchers. I do not think career switchers were at a disadvantage. I'll say it once and I'll say it again, it's directly related to the effort. However, that effort will entail more work than a prior banker. Pick up the basic Vault Guide to Investment Banking, it's a decent place to start. Read the WSJ, FT, and the Economist. You want to know about the deals going on, such as Pfizer and Wyeth and the potential Ticketmaster and Live Nation. Finance novels are good, too, such as Barbarians at the Gate, The Accidental Investment Banker, etc. Good coversation material. These will just give you more insight into the world of IB, but don't let them turn you off from IB. Also, starting learning finance and accounting. Follow these tips and you will hit the ground running and then some.

This might not be how you want to spend your free time before school, but it will be worth it in the end. Just think: you suck it up and study over the summer; you suck it up and recruit day and night while getting good grades and feeling exhausted at all times; you suck it up and prepare for interviews when you think you cannot prepare any more than you already have; and, finally, you get offers and you have finally arrived at what people in this world kill to be...an investment banker (I say this with all seriousness). 9-12 months of hard work is a small price to pay for that.
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 04 Feb 2009, 22:56
dj that was some awesome info. Would you have any further info on recruiting for non-IB functions (e.g. S&T ?)
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2009, 16:21
Great information dj!

Do you feel that Booth and Kellogg students will be more likely to end up in the Chicago office by choice or by force?
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 11 Feb 2009, 07:23
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dj that was some awesome info. Would you have any further info on recruiting for non-IB functions (e.g. S&T ?)


I think kwam and I might be able to put something together on that (me from the sidelines of being on recruiter side at events, he from the heart of the beast). Not wishing to give the game away in two words, but it can be summarized by "not pretty".
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 14 Feb 2009, 19:23
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Jut discovered this forum, good stuff in here!

As mentioned in another post, I have managed to land an internship at DB in London. Here's a quick summary of my process (sorry if it's a repetition of what you've already heard)

I'll start off with the most important element: it's been a bloodbath. I never ever suspected how hard it would be to get a simple internship in such a market. Most banks have recruited AT MOST 3 people from our school - some only one, none. It's tough to say how it's going to be in the future, but most probably not much better. I'm not sure I can give exact figures, but I can tell you that we are talking about a 75% decrease roughly.

I had 8 interview invitations, with all the top BB banks (except ML), so I thought that it was going to be a piece of cake - after all, some people had 0 invitations (yes it did happen). How naive that thought turned out to be. My first interview was with MS, and when I think about it, I can only be embarrassed by my lack of preparation. MS was one of the banks that organized only 1 round of interviews, so I had 4 30 minute interviews. In the first interview this really nice banker told me he thought getting an internship was going to be tough this year; still the alarm bells didn't ring - what was I thinking. In that process, long story short, I got destroyed in the technical (severe lack of preparation didn't help).

I had 5 second / final round interviews (including banks like MS who only had a 1 round interview), which was a pretty good result, but at that point the alarm bells did start ringing: I started seeing the same faces at these second rounds (and they were all pretty good), alarming rumours about the terrible recruiting year were circulating, etc. I was this time much more prepared for the technical stuff, and that usually went on well.

At the end of the road I was one of the very fortunate few to get an offer (how good it felt when I got that phone call! Almost had an orgasm :-D )

My biggest lesson from this process is quite easy to figure out: in this kind of market, I completely underestimated the importance of networking. YES I KNOW, it's one of first things they tell you; but I thought that recruiting for Europe was "different"; yeah right. Plus I went to the London Banking Days, so that certainly should be enough. Sure, genius. To be fair though, in good years it probably didn't matter THAT much, but in this environment it is CRUCIAL. The banks I did the best with were the ones where I made the most contacts.

I can't believe how stupid and almost irresponsible I was when it came down to recruiting, it was ridiculous. DO NOT follow my example: call alums, do follow up with people you meet, etc. The most successful people in recruiting for NY were those who EVERY FRIDAY were in the city meeting up with banks. That's an important commitment in terms of time, but it certainly paid off.

Anyway, all this is certainly no ground-breaking stuff, I feel almost sorry I can't give you more insight. The conclusion here is that in this type of market, you have to focus on the basics even more, wherever you're recruiting. Also, if you're still interested in banking, choose your school with extreme precaution: I feel fortunate that I'm at Wharton, and so should those at Booth. Top banks still recruit a bit from some other selected schools, but really not too many (HBS, and maybe Columbia; I'm not even sure for Stern).
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 15 Feb 2009, 15:28
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hi all, I've been lurking on this site for a while and thought I'd shed some light on Stern recruiting for IB this fall.

It was as Audio and DJ described, a blood bath this year. Here are some unofficial numbers from recruiting for offers extended this fall for NY (and last fall for NY for a perspective):

JP Morgan - 7 (12)
Credit Suisse - 6 (10)
Morgan Stanley - 1 (2 or 3)
Goldman Sachs - 3 (4)
Bank of America (Merrill Lynch) - 2 (?)
Barclays - 6 (14 Lehman offers)
UBS - 3 (?)
Citi - 4 (8)

DB decided to pull recruiting from campus. I think this was mainly due to the fact they have such a low presence at Stern (no MBA2) and a few MBA3 (first year bankers).

Merrill was traditionally a huge Stern recruiter as were Lehman and Bear (typically 10 offers each). Bank of America hosted interviews at Stern while Merrill hosted at Columbia which put us at a disadvantage given our Merrill network.

Stern placed about 25 people in NY and another 12 overseas. Last year there were 45 Sternies going to NY BB, don't know about overseas. 100 people started recruting in the fall but that number quickly dropped to 60. Of the people who wanted banking, only about 10 (deserving) people ended up with nothing but still have shots as some smaller boutiques later in the spring.

I ended up at a BB in New York. And like Audio, I had pretty much all the BB as first round interviews but converting those to offers was especially tough this year since the banks expected 80-100% yeild. Networking definitly played a part as I ended up at the bank where I networked the most. All be said, however, networking only gets you so far as each process (corporate presentations, target events, closed list) is totally different.

Also as a side note, a lot of stern IB candidates are career switchers. I think less than a handful of people were prior analyst and only 3 went bank into banking. Just wanted to put that out there since it is a common misconception.
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 15 Feb 2009, 18:13
Stern10 wrote:
hi all, I've been lurking on this site for a while and thought I'd shed some light on Stern recruiting for IB this fall.

It was as Audio and DJ described, a blood bath this year. Here are some unofficial numbers from recruiting for offers extended this fall for NY (and last fall for NY for a perspective):

JP Morgan - 7 (12)
Credit Suisse - 6 (10)
Morgan Stanley - 1 (2 or 3)
Goldman Sachs - 3 (4)
Bank of America (Merrill Lynch) - 2 (?)
Barclays - 6 (14 Lehman offers)
UBS - 3 (?)
Citi - 4 (8)

DB decided to pull recruiting from campus. I think this was mainly due to the fact they have such a low presence at Stern (no MBA2) and a few MBA3 (first year bankers).

Merrill was traditionally a huge Stern recruiter as were Lehman and Bear (typically 10 offers each). Bank of America hosted interviews at Stern while Merrill hosted at Columbia which put us at a disadvantage given our Merrill network.

Stern placed about 25 people in NY and another 12 overseas. Last year there were 45 Sternies going to NY BB, don't know about overseas. 100 people started recruting in the fall but that number quickly dropped to 60. Of the people who wanted banking, only about 10 (deserving) people ended up with nothing but still have shots as some smaller boutiques later in the spring.

I ended up at a BB in New York. And like Audio, I had pretty much all the BB as first round interviews but converting those to offers was especially tough this year since the banks expected 80-100% yeild. Networking definitly played a part as I ended up at the bank where I networked the most. All be said, however, networking only gets you so far as each process (corporate presentations, target events, closed list) is totally different.

Also as a side note, a lot of stern IB candidates are career switchers. I think less than a handful of people were prior analyst and only 3 went bank into banking. Just wanted to put that out there since it is a common misconception.


Stern, those figures look all right! Only a 50% decrease (more or less), that's pretty good. Seems also like you guys are going to place most of your people, that's pretty remarkable. No such luck here, although maybe because the guys who got offers already usually had banking experience (80% - 100% yield expectation helped I guess), but those without experience still kept on applying (at least that's my analysis). Weirdly enough that didn't matter at your school, funny that.
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 15 Feb 2009, 18:59
Great stuff guys, please keep it up!
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 15 Feb 2009, 19:37
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Audio,

Keep in mind that a lot people dropped out of the process who may have stayed in normal years. It was still a very rough year and not many people got multiple offers. Last year several people got 3+ offers. This year there may have been 2 or 3 that got more than 3 offers. Most people only got 1 offer, which helped out with placement. Lehman was a huge blow as it was our biggest recruiter (Dick Fuld was an NYU grad).

All other industries were down significantly as well.

Luckily for the bankers, there are still all the little NY boutiques out there. They will have to do a lot of extra work to get those internships but at least the firms are close.

Good luck in London. I hope full time offer rates are high this summer.
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 15 Feb 2009, 20:56
Great information guys.

Good news for career switchers trying to break into IB at NYU.
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 15 Feb 2009, 21:18
Great info everyone, keep'em coming.

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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 16 Feb 2009, 19:00
djhouse81 wrote:
lanter1 wrote:
Fellow GMATclubbers,

I wonder how the rest of you aspiring IB professionals are doing in IB recruiting. At Yale, we still have 8 bulge banks coming to campus with 2 middle market and a few small firms. We are hearing they are still hiring about 15 with about 20 to 25 total offers from the class out of 25 interested in Corp Fin (class size only 190). This number seems high considering the market.

How are other members/schools doing?


Lanter,
IB interviews are going on this week. We had a lot of firms on campus, but I'm hearing fewer numbers. Are you sure you're not confusing what they mean by class. 20-25 sounds about right for one bank's class of interns, but that means the class is made up of interns from various schools. At CBS, I think the number of offers that will actually go to CBS students is about 1 for every 10-15 on the closed list. Not a lot, and less than last year.


I meant my specific class at SOM. Our total offers were down over 50% from 2008 recruiting. I didn't receive an offer yet, but I am still actively looking for banks outside of the normal recruiting process.
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 16 Feb 2009, 20:03
Are most going for BB or are there a good portion of students interested in boutique firms? From what I have been learning about the differences between the two, boutiques sound more interesting, work wise, and I was wondering if anyone could shed more light why it seems more are interested in BB internship experience?
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 17 Feb 2009, 05:49
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89nk wrote:
Are most going for BB or are there a good portion of students interested in boutique firms? From what I have been learning about the differences between the two, boutiques sound more interesting, work wise, and I was wondering if anyone could shed more light why it seems more are interested in BB internship experience?


Compared to BBs, internship or work experience at boutique firms will give one more exposure/face time with clients. Since boutique firms tend to be smaller, one might get more meaningful assignment compared to BBs.

In addition, boutique firms are the ones that are hiring right now.

However, BBs have more structured training/entry programs for MBAs whether its summer internship position or post MBA career. Therefore, if you don't have any relevant experience, BBs are better option for you since you will be assigned to a group of about 35 to 40 individuals to begin your training/entry program together.

Boutique firms are more likely to hire MBAs with prior work experience in relevant field.
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 17 Feb 2009, 06:40
I'm going for BB for a few personal reasons. First, I want to work with a lot of people my own age. I have always worked in companies where everyone is much older than me, and it sucks. I'm looking forward to being friends with some of my co-workers. Second, boutique's workflow can be highly dependent on whether or not the MD is successful in bringing interesting assignments, aka is he a 'rainmaker'. BBs in good times tend to get more constant deal flow because they are more of a one stop shop for financing. For instance, if you need to issue some debt to fund an acquisition, the BB can do that and provide M&A advice.

Now, if the opportunity to go to Moelis, Greenhill, or Evercore comes up as the boutique vs. some no name New York boutique, then I would probably go boutique over bulge bracket. Well, I guess that depends on the BB and how much I like the people I was going to work with.
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 17 Feb 2009, 17:17
ninkorn wrote:
89nk wrote:
Are most going for BB or are there a good portion of students interested in boutique firms? From what I have been learning about the differences between the two, boutiques sound more interesting, work wise, and I was wondering if anyone could shed more light why it seems more are interested in BB internship experience?


Compared to BBs, internship or work experience at boutique firms will give one more exposure/face time with clients. Since boutique firms tend to be smaller, one might get more meaningful assignment compared to BBs.

In addition, boutique firms are the ones that are hiring right now.

However, BBs have more structured training/entry programs for MBAs whether its summer internship position or post MBA career. Therefore, if you don't have any relevant experience, BBs are better option for you since you will be assigned to a group of about 35 to 40 individuals to begin your training/entry program together.

Boutique firms are more likely to hire MBAs with prior work experience in relevant field.


Thank you for clearing that up. I wanted to make sure I was reading the differences correctly, and was in line with what others were thinking.
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 17 Feb 2009, 23:54
89nk wrote:
Are most going for BB or are there a good portion of students interested in boutique firms? From what I have been learning about the differences between the two, boutiques sound more interesting, work wise, and I was wondering if anyone could shed more light why it seems more are interested in BB internship experience?


Couple of reasons actually. First of all in terms of types of deals you are going to work on, it's going to be larger deals (which I like). The learning process is better too I think: these banks are used to have a lot of new associates to come in and they know how to integrate them fast. You will learn how to execute a deal properly and you'll learn every facet of the job, fast.

I'm not saying that you won't have that kind of experience in a boutique, but there is a chance that they'll not tick all those boxes. Plus, since they have less resources in terms of manpower and access to information (and the deals are typically smaller), you might skip some processes that are important in larger deals.

Finally, to be very pragmatic, BB looks better on your CV too.

I think it makes a lot of sense to go from BB to boutique, but I would defo start in a BB for the reasons stated above - if you have the choice that is, which does not seem to be the case nowadays. Making the move in the other direction is definitively tougher.
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 18 Feb 2009, 06:08
Audio wrote:
Plus, since they have less resources in terms of manpower and access to information (and the deals are typically smaller), you might skip some processes that are important in larger deals.


Most boutiques specialize in specific areas. It's not a full bank with all the services like Audio mentioned. For example, if a firm hires a boutique to carry out an IPO (let's use Lazard as example), the firm might not be able to distribute or sell all the shares by themselves. They bring in a second bank to help them out as secondary underwriter while the first firm stays on as lead underwriter.

Other services that BBs might offer to boutiques might be back office operations/clearance. Smaller firms might outsource this function to bigger banks where they can do this cheaper and have seasoned veterans with experience.
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 18 Feb 2009, 06:23
ninkorn wrote:
For example, if a firm hires a boutique to carry out an IPO (let's use Lazard as example), the firm might not be able to distribute or sell all the shares by themselves. They bring in a second bank to help them out as secondary underwriter while the first firm stays on as lead underwriter.

Just to be clear, almost no bank will take on an IPO by themselves (there may be exceptions for small IPOs that I am unaware of). The number of firms can range from 2-25+ depending on the size. Most likely it will be 3-10 with one or two acting as lead underwriters. However, in Visa's offering, which I believe is still the largest in US history, there were 37 underwriters. Goldman and JP Morgan were the Co-leads with JP Morgan taking the coveted left hand spot on the S-1 document. Where the difference in boutiques and BBs come in with capital raising is the salesforce. BB firms will have much larger salesforces, and subsequently many more institutional investors to sell the shares of an IPO. Therefore, when it comes to working at BBs, one other advantage would be that you'll see a much greater range of assignments, and thus gain experience in more areas. You might raise debt, raise equity, work on recaps, restructures, M&A, or anything else a client wants to do.
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Re: Investment Banking Recruiting [#permalink] New post 18 Feb 2009, 07:22
ninkorn wrote:
Most boutiques specialize in specific areas. It's not a full bank with all the services like Audio mentioned. For example, if a firm hires a boutique to carry out an IPO (let's use Lazard as example), the firm might not be able to distribute or sell all the shares by themselves. They bring in a second bank to help them out as secondary underwriter while the first firm stays on as lead underwriter.

Other services that BBs might offer to boutiques might be back office operations/clearance. Smaller firms might outsource this function to bigger banks where they can do this cheaper and have seasoned veterans with experience.


Just to clarify, see below (from the FAQ ninkorn posted earlier):

http://www.ibankingfaq.com/about-invest ... ique-bank/

Quote:
Pretty much all banks that are not considered “bulge bracket” are referred to as being boutiques. Boutiques, while ranging in size from a few professionals to hundreds or even thousands of professionals, can generally be categorized into three types: (1) those that specialize in one or more products, (2) those that specialize in one or more industries and (3) those that specialize in small or mid-sized deals and small or mid-sized clients (generally less than $500 million).

There are boutiques that specialize in any number of the products that bulge bracket banks offer. Boutiques known for M&A, for example, often compete with the bulge bracket banks for M&A transactions. A few examples include Lazard, Greenhill, Evercore and Gleacher. Other boutiques offer many different products but specialize in one or more industries. Such boutiques often compete with the bulge bracket banks on the basis of their industry knowledge and expertise. A few examples include Cowen & Co. (healthcare), Allen & Co. (media) and Thomas Weisel Partners (technology). The third type of boutique, those that offer many products and cover many industries but compete only for “middle market” or smaller deals include Jefferies & Co., Piper Jaffray, Raymond James and Robert W. Baird. Many of these middle market boutiques are regionally focused. Some boutiques, including several of the M&A focused banks, are considered to be as (or even more) prestigious as the bulge bracket banks.
Re: Investment Banking Recruiting   [#permalink] 18 Feb 2009, 07:22
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Experts publish their posts in the topic Investment Banking Porscheboy16 6 28 Nov 2005, 11:51
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