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# Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind

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Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]  30 Jul 2012, 01:59
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Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again.
A. often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again
B. whose reputation declines after death and never regains its status again
C. but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status
D. who declines in reputation after death and who never regained popularity again
E. then has declined in reputation after death and never regained popularity

so if the correct statement becomes
Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status.
As far as i remember a rule says
independent clause, dependent clause -- correct construction
independent clause, independent clause --NOT correct
independent clause, FOR/AND/NOT/BUT/OR/YET/SO independent clause -- Correct construction
However in the corrected sentence we find
Independent Clause, BUT dependent clause.
Isnt this violating the rule?
[Reveal] Spoiler: OA

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Re: A little help here! [#permalink]  30 Jul 2012, 02:31
@souvik

Your query has a base , but the use of "but"has cleared it meaning of providing contrast.Though (C) has this flaw(mentioned by you) but it hardly matters as far as GMAT is concerned because GMAT looks for the best option if not the ideal one.
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Re: A little help here! [#permalink]  30 Jul 2012, 08:03
souvik101990 wrote:
Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again.
A. often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again
B. whose reputation declines after death and never regains its status again
C. but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status
D. who declines in reputation after death and who never regained popularity again
E. then has declined in reputation after death and never regained popularity

so if the correct statement becomes
Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status.
As far as i remember a rule says
independent clause, dependent clause -- correct construction
independent clause, independent clause --NOT correct
independent clause, FOR/AND/NOT/BUT/OR/YET/SO independent clause -- Correct construction
However in the corrected sentence we find
Independent Clause, BUT dependent clause.
Isnt this violating the rule?

I chose C only because "But" provides contrast.

Can you elaborate the above rule........
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Re: A little help here! [#permalink]  30 Jul 2012, 08:35
I'm confused as to why the answer is C. Doesn't who...but...whose... violate parallelism? I was split between A and D and chose D because I wanted a safe parallel answer, albeit wordy.
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Re: A little help here! [#permalink]  30 Jul 2012, 08:48
Expert's post
vivekdixit07 wrote:
souvik101990 wrote:
Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again.
A. often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again
B. whose reputation declines after death and never regains its status again
C. but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status
D. who declines in reputation after death and who never regained popularity again
E. then has declined in reputation after death and never regained popularity

so if the correct statement becomes
Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status.
As far as i remember a rule says
independent clause, dependent clause -- correct construction
independent clause, independent clause --NOT correct
independent clause, FOR/AND/NOT/BUT/OR/YET/SO independent clause -- Correct construction
However in the corrected sentence we find
Independent Clause, BUT dependent clause.
Isnt this violating the rule?

I chose C only because "But" provides contrast.

Can you elaborate the above rule........

The rule states that coordinating conjunctions such as For And Not But Or Yet So (FANBOYS) can only be used between two independent clauses with a comma.

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Re: A little help here! [#permalink]  30 Jul 2012, 11:08
2
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error of redundancy = regain and again. Eliminate A, B and D.

In E, has declined and regained (present perfect tense) should be simple present tense (to match the non-underlined verb receives). Eliminate E.

Hence C.
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Re: A little help here! [#permalink]  30 Jul 2012, 22:18
C, 'but' introduces the contradiction and redundancy with 'again' and 'regain' is removed
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Re: A little help here! [#permalink]  30 Jul 2012, 23:26
souvik101990 wrote:
Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again.
A. often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again
B. whose reputation declines after death and never regains its status again
C. but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status
D. who declines in reputation after death and who never regained popularity again
E. then has declined in reputation after death and never regained popularity

so if the correct statement becomes
Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status.
As far as i remember a rule says
independent clause, dependent clause -- correct construction
independent clause, independent clause --NOT correct
independent clause, FOR/AND/NOT/BUT/OR/YET/SO independent clause -- Correct construction
However in the corrected sentence we find
Independent Clause, BUT dependent clause.
Isnt this violating the rule?

C. but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status
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Last edited by Capricorn369 on 04 Aug 2012, 14:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A little help here! [#permalink]  31 Jul 2012, 06:22
Expert's post
whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status.
This starts with a relative pronoun. How can you say this is an independent clause?
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Re: A little help here! [#permalink]  31 Jul 2012, 08:49
EDIT: Watching http://vimeo.com/11867667 so will try to relate it to this question better.

OK, I think I have it so if I have some faulty logic here please tear me to shreds.

Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again.
A. often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again
B. whose reputation declines after death and never regains its status again
C. but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status
D. who declines in reputation after death and who never regained popularity again
E. then has declined in reputation after death and never regained popularity

So A is saying that the composer declines after death because the commas are making parallel ideas to what the composer does. Just like "I ride bikes, swim in lakes, and kiss girls", all the verbs connect to the main idea, so you need reputation.

For B, we want to link "regains its status" to the reputation when the composer was living but because there is no word that signals a separate idea, the sentence reads like a list again. So instead of the reputation regaining its status, it is the composer regaining its status, but what kind of status?

D has redundancy because of the swamping of "who". If the sentence had read "declines in reputation after death and never regains popularity again" it would have made sense because it is a list of things related to the composer.

For E, there is a tense error introduced because of "has declined".

C is fine because the "but" signals an introduction of a new subject which is "reputation". We know it belongs to the composer because of "whose". Therefore the sentence flows as the composer receiving popular acclaim and the reputation declining and never regaining its (now referring to reputation because it is the most recent subject parallel) former status, which was before it started to decline.

I honestly HOPE this is why choice C is correct because I too have been tearing my hair over why C was correct.

EDIT again: I know this does not directly solve your independent clause/dependent clause problem but after watching the video it appears that you cannot think purely in rules like math and apply them to sentence correction. The meaning of the sentence is the most important part of the answer, since an answer choice can be fine grammatically but incorrect because it distorts the meaning. Therefore the sentence does not need to follow a certain rule so long as the meaning being conveyed makes sense and no other rule makes the meaning unclear/ambiguous.
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Re: A little help here! [#permalink]  31 Jul 2012, 10:22
Expert's post
souvik101990 wrote:
Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again.
A. often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again
B. whose reputation declines after death and never regains its status again
C. but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status
D. who declines in reputation after death and who never regained popularity again
E. then has declined in reputation after death and never regained popularity

so if the correct statement becomes
Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status.
As far as i remember a rule says
independent clause, dependent clause -- correct construction
independent clause, independent clause --NOT correct
independent clause, FOR/AND/NOT/BUT/OR/YET/SO independent clause -- Correct construction
However in the corrected sentence we find
Independent Clause, BUT dependent clause.
Isnt this violating the rule?

Souvik,

First of all you are absolutely correct that the typically Comma + FANBOYS construction is used to connect TWO independent clauses. Secondly, you are correct in identifying that the second clause in the correct sentence is NOT an INDEPENDENT CLAUSE.

So why the disconnect between this "RULE" and the "Official Answer".
Because - this rule is more of a standard practice than a hard and fast rule. When I say hard and fast rule, I mean the rules such as SV must always agree in number, which relative pronoun modifiers should modify nouns or pronouns and not verbs or clauses, etc.
Just take a step back and understand why is it we use punctuation - we use punctuation so that the sentence is readable. In oral communication, we punctuate by varying pauses. In written communicates, we punctuate by using punctuation marks. For this purpose there are some general guidelines in English language that we should follow but at times there may be sentences in which we do not need any punctuation at all and in some other sentences we may need to punctuate even if the sentence does not technically break into independent clauses. (This sentence is an example of the sentence that is overly complex and is not punctuated well).

Now lets take a look at a few example sentences - all of which are CORRECT.

IC - marked in Blue
Phrases - marked in Pink
Punctuation - Marked in GREEN
1: Tom teaches in high school and attends part time Master's program.
2: During the week Tom teaches in school, and on the weekend he works as a freelance tutor.

Sentences 1 and 2 follow typical construction. No issues here at all.

3: During the week Tom teaches in school and on the weekend he works as a freelance tutor.

Sentence 3 does not use a comma to connect two independent clauses. Now this is fine since the two clauses are relatively short and the structure of both clauses is very similar. In fact there is no readability issue with this sentence without punctuation. So we can drop the comma in sentences such as these.

4. Tom teaches in high school in the suburban area on the eastern coast of Mississippi river during the weekdays so that he can financially support his family, and attends part time Master's program during the weekend so that he can accomplish his lifelong dream of getting a Master's degree.

Sentence 4 uses a comma even though what follows comma + and is not an independent clause. Now in this sentence we definitely need the comma to separate out the two portions of the sentences so that the intended meaning can be communicated in the first read of sentence itself. If comma will not be used then we may need to re-read the sentence to make sense out of it.

Now I am sure you will be thinking "so when do I know if I have to use comma + FANBOYS? How do I eliminate choices based on this?"

The answer is - You should not eliminate choices just based on the usage of comma + FANBOYS. First of all this punctuation "rule" is actually a GUIDELINE and a VERY IMPORTANT one since it helps you break the sentence down into smaller clauses. Secondly, as we saw in the official question in question and the example sentences, there are cases when we may or may not use comma. So make a note of following:

DO NOT USE PUNCTUATION ERRORS such as COMMA + FANBOYS to ELIMINATE ANSWER CHOICES IN the FIRST OR SECOND ELIMINATIONS. First use grammatical basis and meaning basis and then if you are down to final two choices and have already evaluated these for more deterministic grammar and meaning/logic based errors, then you may use this punctuation "error".

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO PUNCTUATION WHEN IT COMES TO USAGE OF MODIFIERS or CONNECTING ELEMENTS IN LISTS. See this article for more discussion on how to use verb-ing modifiers.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Payal
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Re: A little help here! [#permalink]  31 Jul 2012, 10:49
Expert's post
Thanks Payal
that actually helped a lot
Good work egmat is doing I have to admit
Souvik
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]  03 Aug 2012, 18:37
souvik101990 wrote:
Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again.
A. often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again
B. whose reputation declines after death and never regains its status again
C. but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status
D. who declines in reputation after death and who never regained popularity again
E. then has declined in reputation after death and never regained popularity

so if the correct statement becomes
Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status.
As far as i remember a rule says
independent clause, dependent clause -- correct construction
independent clause, independent clause --NOT correct
independent clause, FOR/AND/NOT/BUT/OR/YET/SO independent clause -- Correct construction
However in the corrected sentence we find
Independent Clause, BUT dependent clause.
Isnt this violating the rule?

sir can u please tell me how to differentiate a dependent and independent clause...
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]  04 Aug 2012, 00:16
Expert's post
Sir?
Seriousl?
anyway
A clause is a group of related words. A clause has both a subject and a predicate. There are two types of clauses.

Independent Clause - An independent clause can stand alone as a sentence. Here is an example: We walk to school. This sentence expresses a complete thought and can stand alone.

Dependent Clause - A dependent clause cannot stand alone as a sentence. Here is an example: when the cake is done baking. This clause does not express a complete thought and cannot stand alone.
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]  04 Aug 2012, 02:58
nice explanation Payal. Does that ,+FANBOYS also does not apply here. Because, I had a hard time in understanding the same logic in this sentence. Based on the answer choices it was easy to come to option D, however, the clause "and the industry uses some lower fares to attract"...Isnt this clause also independent and then not used with ",". Your answer on this will further clarify my thoughts.

the-airline-industry-is-cutting-its-lowest-discount-fares-88571.html?fl=similar
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]  04 Aug 2012, 03:19
I have a pretty much the same question in the answer choice of this example as well the-company-is-negotiating-to-sell-its-profitable-credit-29807.html?fl=similar..what is the function of and in this statement. I don't see it as parallel connector.
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]  25 Feb 2013, 10:27

Can someone clarify on OGs justification ?

OG says (for option D) : The two clauses are not parallel, lack a coordinating conjunction.....
(FYI redundancy of 'again' is fine and this ans is wrong , quite clear)

Option D : whose reputation declines after death and never regains its status again

Combined with D:

Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receivespopular acclaim while living, whose reputation declinesafter death and never regainsits status again.

Against almighty OGs words , I find them parallel and has coordinating conjunction AND .

Can someone explain me this?

thanx
eski
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]  18 Apr 2013, 07:33
souvik101990 wrote:
Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again.
A. often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again
B. whose reputation declines after death and never regains its status again
C. but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status
D. who declines in reputation after death and who never regained popularity again
E. then has declined in reputation after death and never regained popularity

In the option C, is the usage of its correct ? If so, is it correctly modifying reputation ?
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]  18 Apr 2013, 22:00
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Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living, often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again.

A. often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again
Wrong meaning, it's like the composer goes into decline.

B. whose reputation declines after death and never regains its status again
Wrong. "regains.....again" is redundant.

C. but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status
Correct.

D. who declines in reputation after death and who never regained popularity again
Wrong. The composer's reputation declines, not the composer declines himself.

E. then has declined in reputation after death and never regained popularity
Wrong. "reputation" is misplaced.
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]  04 Oct 2015, 20:36
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