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Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program

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Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 13 Aug 2009, 09:18
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Yesterday I received a question from mba12tech asking about the MMM program at Kellogg. He/she had some great questions, the answers of which are probably worth sharing in case anyone else out there has an interest in the program. I think there are probably some myths about the MMM program floating around out there in the ether, so I will first try to hit on some of the big ones.

Myth: Since the MMM is a dual degree program, it will take more than two years to graduate.
Fact: MMM is a two year program. Since the MBA and MEM programs are completely integrated, graduation requirements for both are met in two years. There are no summer terms so you will still be able to do an internship in the summer between first and second year. Not to mention, you are graduating with two masters degrees but you are only paying for one!!

Myth: Candidates are required to submit separate applications to, and must be admitted by both Kellogg and the McCormick School of Engineering.
Fact: Because the MBA and MEM programs are completely integrated, candidates are only required to submit one application through Kellogg. There is no GRE or FE requirement. The only difference is that in the careers assessment/goals essay, there is a separate question for MMM candidates in which you must address how the MMM program will help you reach your career goals.

Myth: The MMM program is only for “hard” engineers.
Fact: As far as I know, I don’t actually think there is a formal requirement for MMM’s to have an engineering undergraduate background (though most do). Certainly there is no requirement for a “hard” degree. Take me for example, other than the introductory statics and dynamics, thermo, and EE classes I had to take as part of a core engineering curriculum, most all of my systems engineering classes in undergrad where operations and calculus based statistics classes. For those candidates lacking an undergraduate engineering degree, solid work experience in operations or design, or working with engineering teams, or in an industry with an engineering focus would be a compelling reason to pursue the MMM program. Remember, the MEM degree is not as much about engineering, as it is learning how to be an engineering manager and leading groups of people to solve problems. Formally, the pre-reqs for the program can be found on the following link:

http://www.mmm.northwestern.edu/academics/prerequisites.php

Myth: Since MMMs have to take courses from the McCormick School of Engineering, they are disengaged from the rest of Kellogg.
Fact: The main reason I was so keen on this program is because exactly the opposite is true. As a MMM, you are a “dual citizen” of Kellogg and McCormick. What does this mean? It means that you are fully a member of both schools and can take part in all activities in both. Just as any other Kellogg student, you are expected to take an active role in leading Kellogg activities but also have the opportunity to lead activities within McCormick as well. Within Kellogg you also maintain a “dual citizenship” in both your class section, and also the MMM section. One of the other “perks” of the program is the MMM student lounge in the Ford Design center. The MMM student lounge has several team rooms reserved only for MMMs, and is a nice place to relax and get away from Kellogg for a bit.

Myth: The MEM course requirements will greatly detract from your ability to take classes at Kellogg.
Fact: There are a total of five core courses, and four elective courses required to meet the MEM requirement. When you factor in the other five core Kellogg courses, you are still left with ten MBA electives (assuming you only take four classes per quarter). In taking to several past and current MMM students, the MEM required courses in some ways actually make getting desired Kellogg electives easier. For example, since you do not have to bid of MEM, you are left with more bid points to use for MBA electives. At the bottom of the link below you can see a sample two year MMM schedule:

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/Programs/FullTimeMBA/MBA_Programs/MMM_Program.aspx

Myth: The MMM program is only for those candidates interested in the manufacturing industry.
Fact: Most MMMs (75% of the class of 2008) go into industries other than manufacturing. While certainly the curriculum will prepare you for a manufacturing career, the program is designed to teach “systems thinking”. What this means is looking at a business problem holistically from the design phase (design does not necessarily imply the design of a product, it could also be a service, or a strategy), all the way through implementation. Because MMMs are taught to view problems from different perspectives, they can provide great value and insight to any company. A look at the breakdown of 2008 job acceptances by industry reinforces this:

MMM Job Acceptances by Industry %
Consulting.........................................................................................43.9
Other Manufacturing*...........................................................................14.0
High-Tech Manufacturing and Services....................................................10.5
Investment Banking, Brokerage and Securities..........................................10.5
Other Services**.................................................................................10.5
Consumer and Packages Goods...............................................................5.3
Pharmaceuticals, Biotechnology, Healthcare..............................................5.3

*Includes Alternative Energy, Energy, Other, Petroleum, Telecommunications, Widely Diversified
**Includes Commercial Banking, Construction, Entertainment, Government, Venture Capital, Retail

More specific MMM employment data can be found on page 26 of the following PDF link:

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/career_employer/employment/2008/Kellogg_Employment_Report_2008.pdf

As seen above, for those interested in consulting, the MMM does very well. In fact, 12 out of the 60, or 20% of MMM graduates in 2008 landed jobs at McKinsey, BCG or Bain. This compared to the ~15% of non MMM Kellogg students that went on to M/B/B.

Myth: With an incoming class size of only 55, the MMM program is harder to get into than the 2Y program.
Fact: While the admissions office does not breakdown application statistics specifically for the program, when I asked an admissions officer what the acceptance rate for MMM was compared to 2Y, I was told they are comparable. Based on other conversations though, I am led to believe that from a purely statistical standpoint, it is actually slightly easier to get into MMM vice 2Y.

Myth: The MMM program is pretty much the same as Ross’ MBA/MEM-Tauber program and Sloan’s LFM program.
Fact: While both Tauber and LFM are world renowned dual MBA/engineering programs, neither offers the ease of applying, total program integration, or career flexibility of MMM. Graduates of Ross’ Tauber program will receive both an MBA and MEM. However, the program is three years and separate applications (and GRE) are required for the business and engineering schools. Candidates must be offered admissions from both schools separately. Sloan’s LFM is also a highly regarded manufacturing program that offers fellowships to its students. The catch is that you are expected to work at a sponsoring company in a purely manufacturing capacity upon graduation. If truly engineering and manufacturing are your career goals, then either of these programs will serve you well. However, if your aspirations do not necessarily include a career in manufacturing, then both of these programs may be somewhat limiting.

Hopefully, this hits on most of the major questions about MMM. Please feel free to post any questions you may have and I will try to answer them.
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 13 Aug 2009, 17:36
Great post! As a prospective MMM applicant, many of the myths/facts that you talked about were exactly what I've been thinking about as I decide whether or not the program is suitable for me vs. the normal MBA. The point of being engaged/disengaged in particular is especially helpful. I was also concerned about having fewer Kellogg electives available but your breakdown alleviates that worry and I hadn't even thought about how that could be an advantage in terms of bidding.

Since there isn't much of a Sloan presence here, I wanted to clarify as an applicant a few comments you had on MIT LFM program (now called LGO - Leaders for Global Operations). First, as one might infer from the name change, the manufacturing aspect has been de-emphasized to include the broader area of operations. Also, while students are guaranteed 6.5 month internship with a partner company but there is no hard requirement to work for any partner company. However, the program FAQ does say that most students take a role in manufacturing or operations companies and should make a "good faith effort" to consider the program partners. The FAQ further states "Students seeking careers in banking, financial services, or consulting should consider programs other than LGO that are more aligned with these career goals." I definitely agree with your point that the LGO/LFM program is more narrowly focused than MMM and that's why I'm having a tough time comparing the two. Although the MIT program seems very well integrated, because of an early start in June and the 6.5 month internship, the overall program schedule is pretty different from any other MBA program.

Anyways, thanks again for your insight into MMM and hope to hear more about your thoughts on it!
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 14 Aug 2009, 06:24
gregarious wrote:
Since there isn't much of a Sloan presence here, I wanted to clarify as an applicant a few comments you had on MIT LFM program (now called LGO - Leaders for Global Operations). First, as one might infer from the name change, the manufacturing aspect has been de-emphasized to include the broader area of operations. Also, while students are guaranteed 6.5 month internship with a partner company but there is no hard requirement to work for any partner company. However, the program FAQ does say that most students take a role in manufacturing or operations companies and should make a "good faith effort" to consider the program partners. The FAQ further states "Students seeking careers in banking, financial services, or consulting should consider programs other than LGO that are more aligned with these career goals." I definitely agree with your point that the LGO/LFM program is more narrowly focused than MMM and that's why I'm having a tough time comparing the two. Although the MIT program seems very well integrated, because of an early start in June and the 6.5 month internship, the overall program schedule is pretty different from any other MBA program.

Anyways, thanks again for your insight into MMM and hope to hear more about your thoughts on it!


Thanks for the insight on the LGO program. I genuinely made a good faith effort at due diligence in backing up everything I wrote, but, I must be honest and say that by the time I got to writing about Sloan, I was getting a bit tired and pretty much put what I remembered reading last year when I was in the process of applying to schools. Regardless, LGO is a great program. But, as you said, it doesn't offer near the flexibility of MMM.
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 14 Aug 2009, 09:21
great post!!!

One general question: What's the difference between MMM and Technology Industry Management program (http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/aca ... /index.htm)

The latter says:
The major is useful for students who wish to work as product managers in technology companies, consultants in strategy consulting firms or as entrepreneurs. It is also useful for future general managers who will sponsor initiatives involving enterprise technology.

Seems to be identical (or better suited) for people from the technology background?
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 14 Aug 2009, 10:31
dynabook wrote:
great post!!!

One general question: What's the difference between MMM and Technology Industry Management program (http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/aca ... /index.htm)

The latter says:
The major is useful for students who wish to work as product managers in technology companies, consultants in strategy consulting firms or as entrepreneurs. It is also useful for future general managers who will sponsor initiatives involving enterprise technology.

Seems to be identical (or better suited) for people from the technology background?


Disclaimer: I do not have a technology background!

A couple of differences. The first major one is that in the MMM program, you are graduating with two separate degrees. Obviously an MBA from Kellogg, but also a Masters in Engineering Management from McCormick School of Engineering. Technology Industry Management program is a major within the MBA program at Kellogg. Would probably agree that it is very well suited for folks with a tech background provided they want to stay in technology management (or related service industries to include MC) post graduation. However, I would argue that if you are interested in technology development or manufacturing MMM may be a better option.
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 21 Aug 2009, 05:18
Any links available for information on the MMM Integration Projects? I'd love to see a few examples of the work that students are doing.
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 23 Aug 2009, 11:19
mba12tech wrote:
Any links available for information on the MMM Integration Projects? I'd love to see a few examples of the work that students are doing.


mba12tech, I've not been able to come across a single source for this information. I will certainly keep my eyes open once school starts and post whatever I come across.
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2009, 00:17
Thanks Dom, this is good stuff. I was curious if you had any knowledge of the view (and benefit) of the MMM program in the Energy/Utilities industry. Given the preference for engineers in that industry, would having the MEM alongside the MBA be more beneficial?
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2009, 03:58
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unhedged wrote:
Thanks Dom, this is good stuff. I was curious if you had any knowledge of the view (and benefit) of the MMM program in the Energy/Utilities industry. Given the preference for engineers in that industry, would having the MEM alongside the MBA be more beneficial?

I dont think it makes a huge difference. They are hiring the MBA and they prefer engineers but thats more your background (undergrad and work experience). I think a lot of people in the energy industry were MMM but I dont think they got there because of the MMM, I think its more that they had the right background and interest. It certainly wont hurt but I dont think it will be a huge selling point over someone with out the MEM. They really want passion and love people who have industry experience/knowledge. I didn't go MMM because I wanted to have more flexibility with what I take and looking at the classes I want to take and the number of classes I can possible cram into my schedule I am glad I did since there is no way I can take everything I want.
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2009, 07:16
riverripper wrote:
unhedged wrote:
Thanks Dom, this is good stuff. I was curious if you had any knowledge of the view (and benefit) of the MMM program in the Energy/Utilities industry. Given the preference for engineers in that industry, would having the MEM alongside the MBA be more beneficial?

I dont think it makes a huge difference. They are hiring the MBA and they prefer engineers but thats more your background (undergrad and work experience). I think a lot of people in the energy industry were MMM but I dont think they got there because of the MMM, I think its more that they had the right background and interest. It certainly wont hurt but I dont think it will be a huge selling point over someone with out the MEM. They really want passion and love people who have industry experience/knowledge. I didn't go MMM because I wanted to have more flexibility with what I take and looking at the classes I want to take and the number of classes I can possible cram into my schedule I am glad I did since there is no way I can take everything I want.


It is worth noting from the 2008 employment report that of the two kellogg grads that ended up going GM at Exxon (one in Houston and one in Fairfax), both were MMM (small sample size, I know). As river said though, it's difficult to tell if the MEM really had anything to do with that or if it was more on a basis of their previous experiences. I can't help but think though that all the operations classes you take as part of the MEM would be beneficial in a production industry such as energy.
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2009, 13:53
I think historically Exxon hired lots of MMM since they have a very stronger preference for engineers than the other oil majors (its one of the things they actually specify in their recruiting pitch) and the vast majority of engineers head into the MMM path. However, note the FT hire this year was a 1Y and none of the three interns were MMM. Chevron took 3 interns, 2 were MMM (both are in type finance roles not GM/operations) but they hired 5 fulltime and only 1 was a MMM and he is going into trading.

If you want energy MMM might give you a slight edge but honestly networking and showing passion for the industry will do far more. If a school has an energy club get heavily involved, if they do an energy trek spend the money and go on it (Kellogg is going to have two this year an Oil one in the fall and a clean energy one in the Spring). Oil recruits traditionally and there are plenty of recent grads there, reach other to everyone you can because I can tell you for a fact the recruiters check up on that. Renewables recruire networking just to find the opportunities.
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2009, 21:09
domtri33, quick question for you. If I'm still on the fence as far as whether to apply to MMM but definitely set on Kellogg, do you recommend going ahead and putting in for it. From looking at all the available info on the website, it doesn't seem like there's any difference in being a MMM applicant. In other words, do you think it's harder to apply to the program after getting accepted or to drop it before classes start (if that's even possible)?
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2009, 21:19
gregarious wrote:
domtri33, quick question for you. If I'm still on the fence as far as whether to apply to MMM but definitely set on Kellogg, do you recommend going ahead and putting in for it. From looking at all the available info on the website, it doesn't seem like there's any difference in being a MMM applicant. In other words, do you think it's harder to apply to the program after getting accepted or to drop it before classes start (if that's even possible)?


The difference between being a MMM applicant and a 2y applicant is that you are applying for the MMM program and everyone else isn't. What I mean, is that if the admissions committee looks at your application and say, gee, strong MBA candidate, but not a strong MMM candidate, then you are going to get a ding, not a "sorry we didn't accept you for MMM, but as a consolation price we will let you into the 2y program. The rationale here is that they assume that you are genuinely passionate about the MEM degree and that if you are not admitted to Kellogg, you are more than likely going to end up at a dual degree program somewhere else like Ross or Sloan. Likewise, you cannot add MMM after you've applied and been accepted to the full time MBA. The program will already be filled with people that knew outright that they wanted the program.

My personnal opinion is that if you are on the fence you should perhaps wait and apply round two. The reason I say this is that there should be a MMM perspective student day sometime in October. This will give you time to come out and visit and get to meet a bunch of MMM students, faculty and alumni and really make an informed decision. Otherwise, if you are deadset on round one, I would say apply only to the 2y program. The last thing that you want is to take a MMM slot away from someone who really wants it, only to realize once you get started that perhaps its not something you really wanted to do.
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2009, 22:01
Appreciate the advice. I'm definitely going to think more about MMM before deciding which round to apply in. There's still some time and I've got other apps to work on anyways. That's one thing that I like about the MIT LGO program is that they have a separate deadline in between Round 1 and Round 2, so it forces you to be committed before even applying, due to the timing.

BTW, saw your reply on the 2009 Military thread, glad that you're available for everyone, I'll try to get around to starting a new thread and hopefully we'll have as successful an app season as you all did last year.
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 03 Sep 2009, 22:15
Just for everyones edification, the class of 2011 MMM's include....2 anthropology majors, 1 physics major, 2 systems engineers, and more than a few non hard engineering backgrounds. In fact, we have a couple of previous PE guys who joined MMM because.."I did a lot of deals on the manufacturing/operations domain and we had to hire a bunch of engineers to tell us what the heck was going on...and then we had to hire a bunch of other people to tell us what the heck the engineers said!!!
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 04 Sep 2009, 04:17
domtri33 wrote:
Just for everyones edification, the class of 2011 MMM's include....2 anthropology majors, 1 physics major, 2 systems engineers, and more than a few non hard engineering backgrounds. In fact, we have a couple of previous PE guys who joined MMM because.."I did a lot of deals on the manufacturing/operations domain and we had to hire a bunch of engineers to tell us what the heck was going on...and then we had to hire a bunch of other people to tell us what the heck the engineers said!!!


"I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people? "

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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 04 Sep 2009, 12:40
The MMM prospective student day is scheduled for 30 October. I do not have any other details for you right now, but will definately keep everyone posted as more information becomes available.

I highly encourage anyone interested in MMM to try and make a point of doing this event. Last year it was capped at 60 people, which was great because you really got a chance to meet a lot more people in a more indepth way than with a larger sized group.
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 13 Sep 2009, 11:41
domtri33 wrote:
The MMM prospective student day is scheduled for 30 October. I do not have any other details for you right now, but will definately keep everyone posted as more information becomes available.

I highly encourage anyone interested in MMM to try and make a point of doing this event. Last year it was capped at 60 people, which was great because you really got a chance to meet a lot more people in a more indepth way than with a larger sized group.


A friend of mine is attending this event. He is wondering if anyone wants to book a hotel room together. The event offers a special rate at Hotel Orrington at $139 (single or double).

Anyone interested? You can pm me.
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 22 Sep 2009, 05:26
Hi domtri33,

Any representations from the automotive industry in your class?

Also wanted to know how is MMM received by the auto industry?

Thanks,
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Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program [#permalink] New post 22 Sep 2009, 13:47
unplugged wrote:
Hi domtri33,

Any representations from the automotive industry in your class?

Also wanted to know how is MMM received by the auto industry?

Thanks,
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In our class there is one guy who came via Toyota. Overall, I don't have an immediate answer to your second question from the prospective of MMM. Overall, I know that historically, Toyota, Nissan, Ford and GM have all recruited on campus for both intership and full time positions.
Re: Kellogg School of Managemnt - MMM Program   [#permalink] 22 Sep 2009, 13:47
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