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Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than

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Re: Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than [#permalink]

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New post 09 Aug 2014, 05:01
ChrisLele wrote:
Hi,

Let me see if I can clear up any ambiguity :)

Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than usual when fed a diet of at least 30 percent fewer calories than that which they would normally eat, but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.

(A) of at least 30 percent fewer calories than that which they would normally eat, but that otherwise

Typically 'diet of' is used to describe a specific food, 'a diet of bread and water.'

(B) with at least 30 percent fewer calories than what they would normally eat though otherwise it

What does the 'it' refer to. Also you want not use 'with' to describe the diet, but would instead use the relative pronoun 'that' to connect 'diet' to the relative clause.

(C) that has at least 30 percent fewer of the calories that they would normally eat, but otherwise it

Here the 'diet' is being compared to 'calories.'

(D) that has at least 30 percent fewer calories than they would normally eat but that otherwise

We need the use of 'that' after 'calories' to show that we are comparing 'diet of 30%...' to 'a diet they normally eat.' We use 'that' to take the place of 'diet.'

(E) that has at least 30 percent fewer calories than that which they would normally eat, though that otherwise

CORRECT: Here we are correctly comparing 'diet that has at least 30 percent fewer...' to 'that (diet) which they normally...'


Hi ChrisLele,

Why the use of "with" in option B is incorrect?

Best,
Lucy
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Re: Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than [#permalink]

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New post 24 May 2015, 02:46
Hi Team EGMAT

Please provide explanation for this
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Re: Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than [#permalink]

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New post 26 Jun 2015, 12:07
Hi,
You gave 2 different answers in 2 posts. which one is correct answer? D or E?



ChrisLele wrote:
Hi,

Let me see if I can clear up any ambiguity :)

Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than usual when fed a diet of at least 30 percent fewer calories than that which they would normally eat, but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.

(A) of at least 30 percent fewer calories than that which they would normally eat, but that otherwise

Typically 'diet of' is used to describe a specific food, 'a diet of bread and water.'

(B) with at least 30 percent fewer calories than what they would normally eat though otherwise it

What does the 'it' refer to. Also you want not use 'with' to describe the diet, but would instead use the relative pronoun 'that' to connect 'diet' to the relative clause.

(C) that has at least 30 percent fewer of the calories that they would normally eat, but otherwise it

Here the 'diet' is being compared to 'calories.'

(D) that has at least 30 percent fewer calories than they would normally eat but that otherwise

We need the use of 'that' after 'calories' to show that we are comparing 'diet of 30%...' to 'a diet they normally eat.' We use 'that' to take the place of 'diet.'

(E) that has at least 30 percent fewer calories than that which they would normally eat, though that otherwise

CORRECT: Here we are correctly comparing 'diet that has at least 30 percent fewer...' to 'that (diet) which they normally...'

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Re: Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than [#permalink]

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New post 14 Aug 2015, 18:26
Dreaming wrote:
Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet of at least 30% fewer calories than that which they would normally eat, but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.

A) of at least 30% fewer calories than that which they would normally eat, but that otherwise

B) with at least 30% fewer calories than what they would normally eat though otherwise it

C) that has at least 30% fewer of the calories than they would normally eat, but otherwise it

D) that has at least 30% fewer calories than they would normally eat but that otherwise

E) that has at least 30% fewer calories than that which they normally eat, though that otherwise

Attachment:
Untitled.png


The actual difference b/w D and E is the word THEY in D refers to Calories while in E, THAT incorrectly refers to a plural word Calories.
Than is attached to the calories so the comparison is b/w calories not DIET. GMATPrep clearly states that the reason behind E is "THAT incorrectly refers to plural CALORIES."
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Re: Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than [#permalink]

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New post 27 Jun 2016, 10:01
hey guys

I have a question about construction of "that which they" or "that which"

Is this construction fine to use?

Has there been any correct GMAT questions that have that and which next to each other? This structure seems a bit odd to me.

Thanks
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Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than [#permalink]

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GMATDemiGod wrote:
hey guys

I have a question about construction of "that which they" or "that which"

Is this construction fine to use?

Has there been any correct GMAT questions that have that and which next to each other? This structure seems a bit odd to me.

Thanks


1. Here "that" is a relative pronoun that creates a copy of a noun previously used (diet).

2. Then the relative pronoun "which" creates a clause ("which they would normally eat) that modifies that copy ( i.e. the relative pronoun "that"). This relative pronoun "which" is again the object of the clause modifier. Thus the complete construction becomes:

".. that which they would normally eat..."

The above construction is awkward since the above two functions can be more concisely carried out using one single relative clause starting with "that". The usage would then be "....that they would normally eat...".

This correct construction is used in option D, but there even the relative pronoun "that" is omitted because by virtue of parelleism it is allowed to drop repeated word(s) from the second element of two parallel items being compared, if the meaning is not obscured. Hence the final construction becomes:
"....that they would normally eat..." ("that", i.e. "diet" has already been used in the first item in the comparison structure and is therefore dropped).
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Re: Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than [#permalink]

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New post 03 Sep 2016, 15:03
Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet of at least 30% fewer calories than that which they would normally eat, but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.
Why is A wrong?
Aren't they comparing two diets? In that case "than that" is required.
Am I wrong?
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Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than [#permalink]

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Mariwa wrote:
Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet of at least 30% fewer calories than that which they would normally eat, but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.
Why is A wrong?
Aren't they comparing two diets? In that case "than that" is required.
Am I wrong?


Option A:
Two relative pronouns ("that which") one after the other is awkward (though grammatically not incorrect).
"diet of 30% ..." is awkward - "diet of..." is generally used to specify particular foods - e.g., "diet of non-vegetarian foods", "diet of curd-rice" etc.

Option D:
Yes, ideally "than that" is to be used. However as has been frequently observed, GMAT allows omission of repeated words form the second element of a parallel structure.

The following post is more detailed:
laboratory-rats-and-mice-live-up-to-40-percent-longer-than-130331-20.html#p1703220
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Re: Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than [#permalink]

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New post 08 Nov 2016, 11:30
Hi sayantanc2k

Wanted to clarify one point - the omitted relative pronoun after "than" in the corrected sentence shouldn't be "that", but should be "those" as it is supposed to be referring to "calories", in keeping with the meaning? I have indicated this below:-

Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet that has at least 30% fewer calories than they would normally eat but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.

Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet that has at least 30% fewer calories than those (the calories) they would normally eat but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.
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Re: Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than [#permalink]

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New post 08 Nov 2016, 14:02
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sanghar wrote:
Hi sayantanc2k

Wanted to clarify one point - the omitted relative pronoun after "than" in the corrected sentence shouldn't be "that", but should be "those" as it is supposed to be referring to "calories", in keeping with the meaning? I have indicated this below:-

Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet that has at least 30% fewer calories than they would normally eat but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.

Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet that has at least 30% fewer calories than those (the calories) they would normally eat but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.



The antecedent of "that" is a diet, and the diet is the direct object of the phrase "they would normally eat." This construction is impressively confusing. I never thought you could remove a direct object but indeed, if the meaning remains intact, there ought to be no issue at all.
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Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than [#permalink]

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New post 08 Nov 2016, 14:03
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sanghar wrote:
Hi sayantanc2k

Wanted to clarify one point - the omitted relative pronoun after "than" in the corrected sentence shouldn't be "that", but should be "those" as it is supposed to be referring to "calories", in keeping with the meaning? I have indicated this below:-

Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet that has at least 30% fewer calories than they would normally eat but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.

Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet that has at least 30% fewer calories than those (the calories) they would normally eat but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.



This construction is impressively clever. The test makers switched the transitive verb "fed" with the intransitive verb "eat", thereby switching the construction of the parallelism. I don't think there is anything but perhaps the food itself that could go there. Even "calories" is non-nonsensical. You eat food, not calories. Calories are the byproduct of your body breaking down the food into units of energy. I hope this helps. I'm sure sayantanc2k will have something to add.
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mejia401 wrote:
sanghar wrote:
Hi sayantanc2k

Wanted to clarify one point - the omitted relative pronoun after "than" in the corrected sentence shouldn't be "that", but should be "those" as it is supposed to be referring to "calories", in keeping with the meaning? I have indicated this below:-

Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet that has at least 30% fewer calories than they would normally eat but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.

Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet that has at least 30% fewer calories than those (the calories) they would normally eat but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.



The antecedent of "that" is a diet, and the diet is the direct object of the phrase "they would normally eat." This construction is impressively confusing. I never thought you could remove a direct object but indeed, if the meaning remains intact, there ought to be no issue at all.


sanghar 's point is also correct - the pronoun should be "those" since it refers to "calories". The comparison apparently becomes faulty otherwise. (Why I used "apparently" is discussed later in this post)

Wrong (apparently): The diet has 30% less calories than that (the diet) they would normally eat. (apparently wrong comparison "diet" with "calories")
Correct: The diet has 30% less calories than those (the calories) they would normally eat. (correct comparison "calories" with "calories").

Now, why I used "apparently" above:
Alternatively "diet" could be used in a different way to maintain parallelism:
The diet has 30% less calories than HAS that (the diet) they would normally eat.
But again by virtue of parallelism "has" can be omitted.
The diet has 30% less calories than has that (the diet) they would normally eat.

So, "that" and "those" both are correct, but the construction of the sentence changes (and since the construction is omitted it does not matter whether "that" or "those" is used).
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Re: Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than [#permalink]

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New post 09 Nov 2016, 08:21
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sayantanc2k wrote:
mejia401 wrote:
sanghar wrote:
Hi sayantanc2k

Wanted to clarify one point - the omitted relative pronoun after "than" in the corrected sentence shouldn't be "that", but should be "those" as it is supposed to be referring to "calories", in keeping with the meaning? I have indicated this below:-

Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet that has at least 30% fewer calories than they would normally eat but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.

Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet that has at least 30% fewer calories than those (the calories) they would normally eat but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.



The antecedent of "that" is a diet, and the diet is the direct object of the phrase "they would normally eat." This construction is impressively confusing. I never thought you could remove a direct object but indeed, if the meaning remains intact, there ought to be no issue at all.


sanghar 's point is also correct - the pronoun should be "those" since it refers to "calories". The comparison apparently becomes faulty otherwise. (Why I used "apparently" is discussed later in this post)

Wrong (apparently): The diet has 30% less calories than that (the diet) they would normally eat. (apparently wrong comparison "diet" with "calories")
Correct: The diet has 30% less calories than those (the calories) they would normally eat. (correct comparison "calories" with "calories").

Now, why I used "apparently" above:
Alternatively "diet" could be used in a different way to maintain parallelism:
The diet has 30% less calories than HAS that (the diet) they would normally eat.
But again by virtue of parallelism "has" can be omitted.
The diet has 30% less calories than has that (the diet) they would normally eat.

So, "that" and "those" both are correct, but the construction of the sentence changes (and since the construction is omitted it does not matter whether "that" or "those" is used).


Thanks for clarifying sayantanc2k
Interesting to see how both can actually be used. Good stuff!
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Re: Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than [#permalink]

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New post 09 Nov 2016, 08:21
mejia401 wrote:
sanghar wrote:
Hi sayantanc2k

Wanted to clarify one point - the omitted relative pronoun after "than" in the corrected sentence shouldn't be "that", but should be "those" as it is supposed to be referring to "calories", in keeping with the meaning? I have indicated this below:-

Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet that has at least 30% fewer calories than they would normally eat but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.

Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40% longer than usual when fed a diet that has at least 30% fewer calories than those (the calories) they would normally eat but that otherwise contains all necessary vitamins and nutrients.



This construction is impressively clever. The test makers switched the transitive verb "fed" with the intransitive verb "eat", thereby switching the construction of the parallelism. I don't think there is anything but perhaps the food itself that could go there. Even "calories" is non-nonsensical. You eat food, not calories. Calories are the byproduct of your body breaking down the food into units of energy. I hope this helps. I'm sure sayantanc2k will have something to add.


Technically you are right, but in my opinion, it is acceptable to say: I eat so many calories in a day.
The grammatical implication of "this" and "those" is discussed in the post above.
Re: Laboratory rats and mice live up to 40 percent longer than   [#permalink] 09 Nov 2016, 08:21

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