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Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc

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Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc [#permalink] New post 06 Jan 2010, 23:24
Hello,
This is something that I have tried to talk to people and search internet, but have not found reliable solid answer.

I have over 11 years of IT experience, with 4 years in Management roles.

Completed my Masters in Computer applications way back in Mar 97. Have worked in US, India, Japan, Germany and France. GPA could be just about 3.3.

I would continue in IT after MBA, just that it may be not be core IT. I would be more into IT -Healthcare, IT- renewable technology and/or startups(Typical). I am also open to NGO's with a flair of mentioned fields.

I am looking to do a full time accelerated 1 year MBA from renowned school, May be SAID, or INSEAD or one in US (need to know top schools for 1 years courses).

My Question:
Which are the top school with best placement record for jobs anywhere in the world, but for people with over 10 years work experience.
Once I know this list of schools, what are their average GMAT scores. My Kaplan prep I recently took for first time, got me 550.

Appreciate reply with really useful and best information.
Thanks in advance.
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Re: Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc [#permalink] New post 06 Jan 2010, 23:59
Keep in mind that full-time programs aren't designed for mid-career professionals looking for similarly mid-career post-MBA jobs. They are geared towards people early in their careers (mostly 5 years or less of work experience) who are looking for entry-level jobs post-MBA (whether it's in finance, consulting, or corporate). Yes, there are a small minority of mid-career folks at full-time programs who are seeking mid-level post-MBA jobs, but for the most part they are on their own when it comes to job hunting (i.e. career services won't be of much use to you as they are geared towards matchmaking corporates who heavily recruit MBAs at a junior or entry level and the young MBA grads who want them).

For people in your position, part-time or executive programs are a much better fit. I have no idea where you're located right now, but you may want to look into those programs.
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Re: Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc [#permalink] New post 07 Jan 2010, 00:16
Am in the US, CA. Planning for GMAT in SFO. March 8th.

I did look at Ivey MBA's who also offer EMBA's. I strongly feel eMBA's wont do me justice to what I am seeking. I surely know I would do a one year full time MBA. Would you by any chance know which of the schools would atleast be eager to take in people with >10 yrs experience. This is a statistic totally missing, although I do hear once a while there are people like me looking to get into MBA with over 10 yrs exp. Except not sure where they go to.
Well, I am not going to put in more time into this research for now. Will look into that after GMAT.
Cheers.
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Re: Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc [#permalink] New post 07 Jan 2010, 22:06
I have 13 year of experience and planning to do MBA preferably one year MBA. I also looking for MBA school with good placement record. I am not interested to do EMBA.

Thanks
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Re: Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc [#permalink] New post 12 Jan 2010, 16:17
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Don't try to find a school that likes "older" candidates, just go for the one that appeals to you by reputation, location, or?

I'm in the "older" category too. There's a lot of talk about MBA program recruiting younger women before they have kids. Well, once you have kids, it will take a while before you can devote yourself to your career again. As a mom, I decided that the only way I can earn an MBA is full-time, there's no way I would want to sacrifice my family life for EMBA.
DOn't let statistics discourage you. The fact is that not many people in our age group are interested in full-time MBA, but there are few each year. In fact, when I visited Duke I met a student, a mom with 3 teenagers and a Forte fellow. I think she was in her late 40's. I asked Duke admin officer about age discrimination. He said that it is not discrimination, it is very simple: older people don't even apply, so how can he admit one? He said that they would love to have "older" more experienced people apply too.
My GMAT score is not something to be envious about, but I just can't see how much to the class discussion people with 2-3 years of experience can bring. I worked in 2 sectors in variety of roles, lived in different parts of the world.

Anyway, I told them in my essays that I will look for a job myself, won't rely on on-campus interviewing and that I'm pursuing full-time MBA because oaf my child. Everyone was completely understanding and no one pushed me toward EMBA. I only see EMBA push here on these boards by admin "consultants".

Time will tell if there's age discrimination or not. I will know from one school next month.
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Re: Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc [#permalink] New post 13 Jan 2010, 23:33
I understand how sensitive one can get when someone tells you "your chances are slim". However, that's the truth. Adcoms will never tell anyone not to apply, because a big part of their jobs is to maximize application volumes (it's no accident that the top 16 schools get a disproportionate number of applicants). The fact is, the older one is, the harder it will be to convince the adcom why you need a full-time MBA. I can understand why that may be infuriating to hear, but the fact is, the full-time program is designed for folks early in their careers (i.e. 20s), and the EMBA programs for mid-career professionals, and part-time programs for professionals in the local area who wish not to relocate (and part of the reason for not wanting to uproot and relocate is because they have established careers they don't want to leave and/or personal/family reasons - circumstances and sentiments that tend to matter more for older than younger candidates).

Of course adcoms will encourage you to apply. Yes, there are a handful of outliers every year, and while there are fewer "older" folks applying, the odds are still against you simply because it's not like they have a quota for those over a certain age bracket (i.e. they will evaluate them on a case-by-case basis and the blunt truth is way more often than not, the chances are not good).

In any case, I recognize that I don't mince words. I'm not going to butter you up and tell everyone that they have a great chance, because that would be disingenuous.

Part of the other reason for encouraging people (not just older candidates, but any candidate) to also look at other options is because as an admissions consultant, I've seen *way* too many folks that get way too emotionally invested or fixated on the full-time MBA as *the* only ticket or solution to their current problems or predicament - or that it's the only *one* thing that is standing in the way of their goals. And more often than not, there are multiple paths to the same goal - but it's like one gets so emotionally invested in this "idea" that the MBA is THE THING that when someone suggests "maybe you should look at other options that will still get you to the same place eventually - just a different path" they refuse to listen because they've been so stubbornly fixated on the plan they have burned in their minds.

Anyhow, as an admissions consultant sometimes we can't win. When we say anything positive, people accuse us of saying anything to win business. When we say anything that isn't encouraging, we get criticized for being Debbie Downers.
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Re: Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc [#permalink] New post 14 Jan 2010, 12:12
Alex, in your last post you did not say a single positive thing. Not one. You are very biased person.
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Re: Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc [#permalink] New post 14 Jan 2010, 19:12
Alex: Thanks for providing the insight.

Andromeda: Totally appreciate the energy and kind of attitude. Like that.

Shub: Join in. Lets share - divide and conquer.

At the end - Will you get what you want. Are you focused towards that, is what matters. Does not matter what others, say, feel and tell. I know what I want, and do have Idea of how will get there. Me being here is to explore all other tools and information that others can share.

As already stated in my first post, will only filter and consider "Appreciate reply with really useful and best information".

Thanks all.
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Re: Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2010, 08:31
@Andromeda - I'm not sure whether you're being serious ? Alex has great experience in admissions and he has nothing to be biased about. He is very right in suggesting that the odds are stacked against you as you hit 35+ EVEN in older candidate friendly schools such as LBS (average age 29). We have maybe 5 or so students that are above 35 in the class of 400 (that is 1-2% of the total student body). These students have something very rare or distinguishing about them. American schools are even tougher as their average age trends younger and younger every year. By all means apply if your heart is set upon it, but do respect informed advice and manage your expectations.

@FanTom - In terms of school choice you may want to look at IMD which actually prefers lots of work experience. Again its the quality of the work experience combined with the quantity that will result in an admit anywhere.

andromeda wrote:
Alex, in your last post you did not say a single positive thing. Not one. You are very biased person.
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Re: Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2010, 13:23
Yes, I am very serious when I point to the age discrimination and bias by Alex and other consultants. The fact is that "older" people don't even bother getting an MBA. If you don't believe me, take a look at GMAT stats:
http://www.gmac.com/NR/rdonlyres/EEFE1A ... es0509.pdf

About 15% of all GMAT test takes are between 31-39 years of age. Now, a bunch of them are taking a test to get into EMBA. Let's say that at least half of these people are applying to EMBA, so that leaves about 7% applying to full-time MBA, which is probably too high of an estimate. Let it be 7%. If you have few people in your class in that age range, I think that odds of getting in are pretty good.

BTW, I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't go against the crowd all my life, and that makes for some interesting admission essays.

31–34 Men: Number 20,200 18,469 17,266 18,440 17,992
Mean Total Score 547 552 555 555 548
Women: Number 7,777 7,125 6,682 7,263 7,166
Mean Total Score 495 500 501 501 498
Total: Number 27,977 25,594 23,948 25,703 25,158
Mean Total Score 533 538 540 539 534
% of Year 14.0 12.5 10.9 10.4 9.5
35–39 Men: Number 10,297 9,247 8,785 9,267 8,850
Mean Total Score 526 531 530 531 524
Women: Number 4,213 3,830 3,736 4,004 3,760
Mean Total Score 473 476 479 480 472
Total: Number 14,510 13,077 12,521 13,271 12,610
Mean Total Score 511 515 515 516 509
% of Year 7.2 6.4 5.7 5.4 4.7
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Re: Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc [#permalink] New post 02 Feb 2010, 14:08
AlexMBAApply wrote:
Keep in mind that full-time programs aren't designed for mid-career professionals looking for similarly mid-career post-MBA jobs. They are geared towards people early in their careers (mostly 5 years or less of work experience) who are looking for entry-level jobs post-MBA (whether it's in finance, consulting, or corporate). Yes, there are a small minority of mid-career folks at full-time programs who are seeking mid-level post-MBA jobs, but for the most part they are on their own when it comes to job hunting (i.e. career services won't be of much use to you as they are geared towards matchmaking corporates who heavily recruit MBAs at a junior or entry level and the young MBA grads who want them).


Alex, like others I appreciate your candor.
Can you address how this advice applies to career-switchers? It's my understanding that moving into a completely different sector (IT to nonprofit management, for example) typically means looking at the same kinds of entry-level post-MBA work as any other new grad. Should a mid-career switcher address his/her understanding of this situation at interview time or in essays and apps, or does an EMBA still make more sense for someone 30+ with > 10 years experience?

Thanks!
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Re: Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc [#permalink] New post 02 Feb 2010, 18:44
djinn wrote:
AlexMBAApply wrote:
Keep in mind that full-time programs aren't designed for mid-career professionals looking for similarly mid-career post-MBA jobs. They are geared towards people early in their careers (mostly 5 years or less of work experience) who are looking for entry-level jobs post-MBA (whether it's in finance, consulting, or corporate). Yes, there are a small minority of mid-career folks at full-time programs who are seeking mid-level post-MBA jobs, but for the most part they are on their own when it comes to job hunting (i.e. career services won't be of much use to you as they are geared towards matchmaking corporates who heavily recruit MBAs at a junior or entry level and the young MBA grads who want them).


Alex, like others I appreciate your candor.
Can you address how this advice applies to career-switchers? It's my understanding that moving into a completely different sector (IT to nonprofit management, for example) typically means looking at the same kinds of entry-level post-MBA work as any other new grad. Should a mid-career switcher address his/her understanding of this situation at interview time or in essays and apps, or does an EMBA still make more sense for someone 30+ with > 10 years experience?

Thanks!



Hello, This is a good question. I would like to know the reply too. Keep the discussion going guys. Am sure the contribution by each will be helpful to one or another.
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Re: Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc [#permalink] New post 03 Feb 2010, 10:08
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djinn wrote:
AlexMBAApply wrote:
Keep in mind that full-time programs aren't designed for mid-career professionals looking for similarly mid-career post-MBA jobs. They are geared towards people early in their careers (mostly 5 years or less of work experience) who are looking for entry-level jobs post-MBA (whether it's in finance, consulting, or corporate). Yes, there are a small minority of mid-career folks at full-time programs who are seeking mid-level post-MBA jobs, but for the most part they are on their own when it comes to job hunting (i.e. career services won't be of much use to you as they are geared towards matchmaking corporates who heavily recruit MBAs at a junior or entry level and the young MBA grads who want them).


Alex, like others I appreciate your candor.
Can you address how this advice applies to career-switchers? It's my understanding that moving into a completely different sector (IT to nonprofit management, for example) typically means looking at the same kinds of entry-level post-MBA work as any other new grad. Should a mid-career switcher address his/her understanding of this situation at interview time or in essays and apps, or does an EMBA still make more sense for someone 30+ with > 10 years experience?

Thanks!


Here's the thing. If you're looking to switch into a business career after 10+ years experience, going for a full-time MBA *in theory* would make sense - IF the full-time programs as they are designed today are geared towards mid-career professionals. But they are not. It's a larger discussion -- but it's more of a mismatch that MBA programs will need to address down the road as more and more people switch careers in their 40s and 50s -- the b-schools will have to one day develop a full-time MBA program for mid-career professionals (i.e. a separate full-time program) that is designed to address the specific needs of those with 10+ years in another career and looking to "start over" in a new career. Harvard's Kennedy School has done this with their MPP -- a separate full-time program for mid-career professionals that is distinct from their regular MPP degree program.

The fact is, someone with 10-15 + years experience looking to break into the business world will have a different set of challenges and opportunities compared to someone with 5 years or less experience. You can't just assume that at the age of 35 you should expect to take the same path and entry into the business world as someone who is 25.

For example, if let's say after 10+ years experience in IT, you now want to get into investment banking. You can't expect that Goldman, Morgan, Citi, JPM, etc are going to see you in the same light as the 25 year old kid no matter how you "position" yourself in the recruiting process. They simply want younger kids, and will have enough younger kids to fill their ranks. Does that mean you are barred from a career in investment banking? Absolutely not. But you'll have to find an alternate way of getting there -- working at a startup advisory firm or middle market firm outside of NYC. Finding another job in finance (corp fin at a Fortune 500, etc) and gaining 10+ years of experience until you have the C-level type of experience -- and then bypass all the associate-VP ranks and get hired as a director or MD in the longer-term. Same goes with consulting - you may not get hired directly at a big consulting firm like McKinsey, but maybe a smaller, regional player - or gaining a ton of industry experience for another 5-10 years before being hired at McKinsey as an experienced industry hire. In other words, you can still reach your LONG-TERM goal, but you'll have to be a lot more flexible in the short-term than someone who is a decade or more younger than you.

It's like sports. You want to play in the NFL. But you're already done college, you're a little older, but you feel you can still play. You can't expect that your route to get on the team is going to be the same as someone who plays D1 and can get drafted right out of college. It's a tall order as it is -- but nonetheless you'll have to find another way -- play your way into the arena league, or the CFL, or NFL Europe - and then hope that you'll get noticed by an NFL team. Or, if you're in your 40s and still love football, becoming a professional player may not be realistic, but working on the team as a coach, offensive/defensive coordinator, assistant GM, trainer, scout, etc. may be a good alternative.

With full-time MBA programs as they are today - they are set up to process and place people primarily with 5 years or less experience into junior (or entry level) positions. As someone who may be significantly older than the rest, your route into these industries will more than likely not involve going after the same entry level positions as the 26 year old MBA graduate. Simply put, most employers who come on campus looking for MBAs are looking for the kids. That's the hard and unfortunate truth.

In short, apply to full-time programs if you wish, but do so with eyes wide open, and with realistic expectations that no matter how sensible your story may be, the system as it stands is stacked against you - b-school admissions and the traditional MBA employers alike.

From an admissions standpoint, the other thing is that most of the "outliers" in terms of age (those say 34+) tend to be from non-traditional pre-MBA careers (i.e. outside of finance, corporate, consulting, IT, engineering) -- they may be physicians, a few lawyers, science researchers, military officers, nonprofit, politics, arts, etc.

My point is, if you are an older candidate and you're not from a non-traditional pre-MBA career path, you cannot afford to place all your hopes on the MBA as the key element in your career switch. Yes, you can make a successful career switch, but you'll have to be a lot more flexible, open-minded, and creative in doing it by looking at other avenues -- because even if you think that the full-time MBA may make sense to you, the adcoms may not give you the chance.

For anyone at any age, think of the MBA as an option, and not the *sole* way to getting whatever it is you want. Don't get so hung up on the MBA being the key to your goals. And this is even more the case the more experienced you are. It's one path, but in the process of making that career switch you have to come up with other alternate ways of reaching your career goals.

Not to get too long winded (haha....) put it this way. Let's say a 40-year old who spent a career teaching English now wants to work in IT and has no formal educational background in computers/tech/engineering (but has a huge interest that was developed informally). Can this person make the switch? If so, would you suggest the same path to getting that IT job as you would some 18 year old high school kid about to go to college? Would you suggest that this person go through 4 years full-time to get another bachelor's degree, then another 2 years doing an MS? And even then, would you suggest that this person take the same career path as someone half his/her age?
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Re: Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc [#permalink] New post 03 Feb 2010, 20:06
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In short, apply to full-time programs if you wish, but do so with eyes wide open, and with realistic expectations


Good advice in all situations, I think. :)

Thanks for the thorough and thoughtful response. Plenty of interesting information to chew on in that post, it's appreciated.
Re: Life Begins @ 40.. Yet to write GMAT. Score/school and suc   [#permalink] 03 Feb 2010, 20:06
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