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Low GPA profile. Please evaluate!

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Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 30 Apr 2008, 21:32
I want to apply for the top 5 American schools. I would be grateful if you could advise me on my profile. I'm an Indian citizen.

Age: 24

Education:
High School: 94%
Undergraduation from IIT in biotechnology: 2.0/4
GMAT Score: 740

Work Ex:
1. 2.5 yrs(by the time of application) full-time as a co-founder and President, Operations at a web startup.
2. 0.5 yrs full-time as a manager at a non-profit organization.
3. 2 yrs part-time professional blogger/writer at a for-profit technology review blog.
4. 2 months at an investment consultancy firm.
5. During undergraduation I founded a for-profit micro-credit organization which dealt with providing loans to rural entrepreneurs. Successfully exited from the company by selling stake. I ran it part-time for 1.5 yrs and company still exists.

Extra-curriculars:
1. Founded a co-operative for employing rural artisans, which runs even after 5 yrs.
2. Won 2 national level business plan competition. Semi-finalist at Stanford's E-Challenge.
3. Selected as a Youth fellow of Ashoka, the international NGO.
4. Selected as a StartingBloc fellow, which is an American non-profit educating youth from across the world in responsible businesses. As a StartingBloc Fellow, I can be considered for early deferred admissions to MBA programs at MIT Sloan and Duke Fuqua (Application: next March).
5. Won a university level award for leadership.
6. Shortlisted in the top 200 essays out of 3500 in an international competition on social development organized by UN.
7. Youngest speaker at a global business conference for entrepreneurs.
8. Active member of various recreational clubs.

I would want to get into schools like Wharton, Harvard or Stanford. But my undergraduate GPA worries me a lot. Its that horrible because I was running the business, spent time woking on social development issues and not to mention IITs are hard to do well in.

What do my chances look like at the top 5 schools?
If they are bad, what schools should I look at? I have the option of Sloan and Fuqua, but what about the other top 10 schools?

I still have six months before I begin the application process, so what should I do to make my profile better? More non-profit work? Run a marathon?

Please advise!
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 30 Apr 2008, 22:12
I think you have a very competitive profile. Donno about your chances at HBS and Stanford, but I would think you would have a solid shot at the other Ultra-Elites like Wharton, Chicago etal. Except for your GPA, everything is great. But, I also think your GMAT compensates for the low GPA(from a tough school). Your work progression isnt smooth, but your career is interesting. Just make sure you connect those different dots logically.

BTW, whats your career goal? That more than anything else should determine where you apply.
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 30 Apr 2008, 22:26
Thanks for the quick reply.

I want to either startup or join a startup dealing with technology aimed at rural or social development. My dream would be joining a startup that leverages web technology for social development purposes, although such are very few in number. And about 10 years after that I want to get into VC sector and deal in investments in socially responsible businesses.

I primarily want to leverage the huge alumni networks of the business schools.

Also could you clarify the meaning of 'smooth career progression'? How do I best present my career?
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 01 May 2008, 05:45
Worried --

Certainly aim high...but you need to have a tight, compelling story -- you need to explain WHY you want to do work with socially reponsible businesses and how your past experiences tie to that goal.

Too often applicants have these lofty dreams without a compelling story. It seems you have good experiences so your execution is critical
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 01 May 2008, 07:33
How did you directly translate an IIT GPA to a US GPA? It's not a linear relationship. Put the GPA or percentile you got and let the adcom do the work.
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 02 May 2008, 13:06
PM "pelihu" and see if he has more insights regarding overcoming a very low GPA.

Or search "pelihu" and "GPA" and you should find some good threads. Otherwise, what everyone else said here is very valid. Focus on your work experiences, leadership experiences, and ECs. Your 740 GMAT also compensate for the GPA.
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 03 May 2008, 05:51
You have a competitive profile and a good GMAT, though am told that for an Indian, 750 and above is better.

As long as you can justify your undergrad GPA in the optional essay or elsewhere, you cannot miss. You could also take some prerequisite courses for MBA and compensate for your grades.

All the best for next phase!!
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 03 May 2008, 11:54
I'm surprised that the other folks are so optimistic regarding this profile (I answered his PM before looking at this thread). Kryzak is right that I overcame a low GPA, but it was just a few tenths off the bottom of the 80% range. Honestly, I have never heard of anyone with a 2.0 at any top 15 business school. Perhaps something is missing in the translation, but I would say that barring something truly unique, there is literally no chance an ultra-elite will admit someone with a 2.0 GPA. By unique I mean son of a president (senator wouldn't even cut it) or daughter of a prime minister, or perhaps family donation of $20M or something like that. Perhaps a few truly underrepresented minorities are admitted to ultra-elites with 2.5 GPAs, but an Indian student (or non-underrepresented minority)? I wouldn't believe it even if I saw it.

GPA is weighted less as time passes, but this person is only 24. I'd say that unless there's something special (and relevant) that hasn't been disclosed, the only way worriedgrad could get serious consideration at an elite is to put together a 3-5 year plan (he/she will be 27-29 by then) that includes substantial progress in work, identifiable leadership experiences, a slate of 5-10 courses at a rigorous and respected university (with top grades) and flawless execution in the application. As far as work experience goes, entrepreneurship is generally a good background for business school, but given worriedgrad's GPA, blue chip experience is almost a must. Worriedgrad needs to demonstrate that he/she can compete with other applicants, and needs to do so in well-known, quantifiable setting. Schools will give the benefit of the doubt to entrepreneurs who have solid academic records, but at some point each applicant has to show that they can succeed in a competitive setting against other potential applicants. So unless that web startup turns into a brand name business, it's not going to make schools overlook a 2.0 GPA.

I'm surprised that other responders think it is a simple matter to justify or explain away such a GPA. Sure, if you have a 2.8 or 2.9 (below the mid 80%), then a high GMAT, additional competitive graduate degree and some unique experiences might make a school overlook the GPA. But let's not get carried away. As I mentioned above, I have never met or heard of anyone at a top 15 school with a 2.0 GPA. I have encountered one person with a 2.5 GPA.

Since others have pointed me out as someone who was admitted (to several elite schools) with a lower GPA, I think we should understand the type of profile needed. My GPA was far closer to 3.0 than 2.0. My undergraduate degree was from UCLA, which is well known to have very tough grading standards. I completed my degree in 3 years (5 years is average) and I worked full time throughout college and law school. My GMAT was 780 (a few hundred people per year, as compared with 4-6000 who get 740). It's been a long time since I posted my undergraduate grades and in the interim I received a JD from one of the most competitive and respected law school in the country (world). I have work experience with blue chip law firms and starting a successful business. I'm sure my writing skills and application package were persuasive and flawless in execution (English major, law degree, law firm experience, 51V on GMAT, 6.0 AWA). And still, I received no interview invite from Wharton, Chicago or Stanford (granted, I was an older candidate). It's just not very easy to explain away a 2.7-2.9 GPA.

As I see it, it is darn near impossible to overcome a 2.0 GPA. Perhaps a graduate math degree from MIT or Princeton in the interim would be the ticket, I don't know. Does anyone else know of anyone at an ultra-elite with a 2.0 GPA? A 740 GMAT is great, but for an Indian student applying to a top 15 school it's par for the course and will do nothing to separate this candidate from the hundreds (or is it thousands) of other IIT applicants with much much much higher grades. Am I missing something? I really think it is a disservice to mislead people. It's just not true that this is a "very competitive profile" or "you cannot miss" given that this person is asking about top 5 and ultra-elite schools. In fact, the opposite is true. If this is really a serious goal, this person needs to put together a 3-4 year plan that covers all the bases to turn in the best possible application, because frankly anything less just defies reality.
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 03 May 2008, 17:30
I agree with what pelihu said but I would add the following:

Someone above called your career progression "interesting." Interesting it may be, but you are going to have an awful time trying to fit your background into an application. I also have a varied background (finance + non-profit) and took a year off from school to work in tech during the end of the tech bubble (snagged one of the few last remaining good opportunities in the industry and paid for my college with the money I earned). It's really hard to explain in just a few pages why you made the choices you did from jumping between tech, non profit and finance / investing. In my case, the choices made a lot of sense, but I still didn't have the opportunity to really crisply explain it in my essays due to the space restrictions.

Also, a lot of your EC accomplishments will be watered down. There is a shelf life to accomplishments, and things tend to age after a while ago (it's admirable that you started that organization five years ago, but that isn't going to count for much). Further, in some of applications, you will have very limited space to discuss these ECs -- Harvard gives you 100 characters (not words, characters) or about two sentences to explain yourself per activity.

The point I am trying to make is that a lot of what you have done will be "lost in translation" as you try to squeeze it into the application. Unfortunately, for all the talk of diversity and unique experiences, the appplication process clearly priveleges a linear track record developed over a long period of time (e.g., you decided you want to be an investment banker at age 16 and took all the econ and finance you could in high school and then college, got an IB internship and then job and have focused solely on IB and maybe one or two ECs since that time). Jumping around just dilutes your message.

I don't mean to be a downer, but this is my impression after having applied this year. Most of the successful profiles I saw had one theme in common: Focused consistent effort. Good luck if you decide to apply.
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 03 May 2008, 19:21
worriedgrad, pelihu and sudden raise some concerns, but I personally dont believe your low GPA is fatal to your application. Your GMAT is more than sufficient to offset your low GPA. Also, getting into an IIT is not a joke. While not every poster here will be able to appreciate this, ad-coms knows this and will offer you more leeway than they would for others.

Also, given the fact that you accomplished a lot while you were at school, ad-coms will be favorable to you. What's critical is that you bring life to your accomplishments in your essays. Ashoka Fellowship, Starting Bloc etc are significant things to have on a resume. Make them count. In addition, take online extension courses at UCLA/UC Berkeley etc and get 4.0s on them(tough, but not impossible for someone from IIT) to further build academic credibility.

Couple of final things. First, this thread is proof that there is a lot of subjectiveness associated with admissions. Some of us thought you had a good shot, others disagree. sudden says your accomplishments are too old, but if you had a recent one there will be others who will argue that the accomplishment is too recent to be credible. In the end, some schools will love you and others will outright reject you. Just hope that one of your target schools loves you.

Second, just because 1 person with a 780 and a top JD is rejected without interview at Chicago and Wharton, doesnt mean a 740 from an IIT will be rejected. Understand that you will be competing against a different pool of applicants - possibly made of engineers from India who in all likelihood will not have an entrepreneurial background, or a starting bloc fellowship.

It certainly wont be easy for you, but I will repeat what I said earlier. You will be competitive at Chicago and Wharton. Post your profile in the Accepted.com forum and see what Paul has to say.
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 03 May 2008, 19:36
I agree with Pelihu on this one completely. I hate to say it but a 2.8 is very different than a 2.0...especially for someone coming from what has to be the single most competitive group academically. Your best hope is to go for a masters in something else and getting a 4.0 but the same GPA issue will haunt you trying to get into any top masters program. Even if you got an 800 on the GMAT its not going to overcome that low of a GPA because they will still question your ability to do the work because of your work ethic in the classroom.

HOWEVER, I think if you are translating the GPA without realizing that a 75 in the indian system is not any way close to being a C (2.0) in the US. If you give your actual grade maybe some of the Indians on here can give a better perspective on how that grade really stacks up.
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 03 May 2008, 20:07
I am not sure about the translation that you used to arrive at a 2.0/4.0. If your GPA is indeed 5.0/10.0, then I think it is difficult to get into HSW- the other M7's possibly but even those are extremely competitive with a huge number of IITians with very impressive profiles applying. If your GPA is 5.0/10, you would have had some F or U grades - and it is extremely difficult to explain those in an optional essay (IMO).

I am an IIT grad myself and felt that my GPA (~7/10) was on the lower end and felt that my 760 GMAT did help a bit but maybe not as much. I think the ad-coms are VERY well aware of the grading system at IIT and so it does hurt if your GPA is low. I would encourage you to add a few safety schools in the elite level but do give your dream schools a shot- you do have some interesting stuff that might work for you.
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 03 May 2008, 20:25
ncprasad wrote:

Second, just because 1 person with a 780 and a top JD is rejected without interview at Chicago and Wharton, doesnt mean a 740 from an IIT will be rejected. Understand that you will be competing against a different pool of applicants - possibly made of engineers from India who in all likelihood will not have an entrepreneurial background, or a starting bloc fellowship.


As stated above, I'm not making a judgment based on one data point. To restate, I have never met or heard of anyone admitted to any elite or ultra-elite with a 2.0 GPA. I have looked at hundreds and hundreds of profiles (many were self-reported of course, so I can't personally verify their accuracy) but the lowest GPA I can recall claiming admission to an elite or ultra-elite is a 2.5.

Some schools disclose the entire GPA range (rather than just the mid 80%); UCLA is an example I recall from last year. At UCLA, the absolute lowest GPA of any admitted student in the past 3 years was a 2.8 (2.8 in 2007, 2.9 in 2008, 2.8 in 2009). Nobody, absolutely no one, nada, not a single student, at UCLA over the past three years has had a GPA below 2.8. As riverripper said, a 2.0 is a far cry from 2.8; and I would bet big money that students admitted with 2.8 and 2.9 GPAs had distinguishing accomplishments and quite probably underrepresented backgrounds. By the same logic, I would guess that the absolute lowest GPA of a student admitted from a highly competitive demographic would be a few tenths higher. To compare, the lowest GMAT score of an admitted student over the past three years was 540. Now, imagine a GMAT score that is a far cry below 540, perhaps a 300 or 350 and you'd have the equivalent of a 2.0 GPA. Can anyone truly imagine someone with such a score being admitted to an elite b-school, regardless of how outstanding the rest of their profile is?

If there's something lost in the translation of the GPA, then that's a different story. But if we're really talking about a 2.0, I stand by my analysis.
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 06 May 2008, 10:53
Worried, I would encourage you to disclose your actual grade point (IIT system) when asking for feedback, whether on GMATclub or another forum. I agree with others that some more work needs to be done on your part to overcome the low GPA. Maybe take some courses this year and apply in 2010 -- you're still pretty young.
I think one thing that does help you a bit is that you will not be hurting the school's GPA range or average as far as I know. I believe that schools only publish the GPAs of students who did their undergrad in the United States; as I said before, and IIT-->US GPA conversion is a non-linear process.
As a fellow applicant with a low undergrad GPA, I've taken the steps that I believe will help me overcome the low GPA. 6 yrs WE, 2 biz courses w/ A's (acct and finance, taking biz stats this summer), 780 GMAT, 4.0 is EE masters degree. Take it from me, this is not something that can be overcome in a matter of a few months.
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 06 May 2008, 19:56
I agree that it will be very difficult, but not impossible. I would reevaluate your target schools, or make a new plan for the next couple years on how to sharpen your profile. I am currently doing the same.
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 08 May 2008, 11:58
kryzak wrote:
Or search "pelihu" and "GPA" and you should find some good threads.


I did a search and it's all scattered around. Do you have any specific links to posts re: GPA by PELIHU?
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 08 May 2008, 12:14
So Pelihu, if a gpa is within the 80% gpa range for that business school, does this mean the candidate has a shot if the rest of the application falls into place?
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 09 May 2008, 19:24
sonibubu wrote:
kryzak wrote:
Or search "pelihu" and "GPA" and you should find some good threads.


I did a search and it's all scattered around. Do you have any specific links to posts re: GPA by PELIHU?


check the knowledge vault... I'm pretty sure the one with "GPA" has Pelihu's posts? If not, let me know and maybe I'll add it when I get a chance. Currently on travel in Asia...
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 10 May 2008, 09:34
Quote:
1. 2.5 yrs(by the time of application) full-time as a co-founder and President, Operations at a web startup.
2. 0.5 yrs full-time as a manager at a non-profit organization.
3. 2 yrs part-time professional blogger/writer at a for-profit technology review blog.
4. 2 months at an investment consultancy firm.
5. During undergraduation I founded a for-profit micro-credit organization which dealt with providing loans to rural entrepreneurs. Successfully exited from the company by selling stake. I ran it part-time for 1.5 yrs and company still exists.


I agree with pelihu about this profile and further than GPA I question the WE as well. Undergrad work s/b considered under extracurrriculars, then we have a 2 year part time blogging.
1st full time is 0.5 years as a manager as starters? I know people who work in a 3 people company and have the title manager. You just can't be a manager at start with no previous full time WE unless you are (maybe) top 1% grduate or your family owns the company. I know applicants whose family owns a local lodge and they have the title of "general manager". Adcoms know to treat this GM differently. Web-startup co-founder may be of great value if the enterprise generates serious money or was mentioned in serious press or have VERY high traffic ranking. Else that is another area that one can "build" titles easily.Another gray area.

To be very honest, after observing and being inbvolved in this process for 8+ months and being in it. I do not think UE & E is a possibility. Why?

1) GPA - Unheard of. I had a 2.70 from a very tough engineering school, still had to bend over backwards to explain it to adcoms. And for UE&E 2.70 is a VERY BAD GPA.
2) Work Exp : Very, very questionable. Size and seriousness being just two issues...
3) 740 is very good but not good enough to offset 1&2.
4) Indian pool is very,very competitive.
5) EC is the only bright spot in the whole picture.

I am being dead honest, since I have seen many people dream high and get crushed later during the process. I am a prime example. When I first started this process, I was going to apply only to H and S. I thought age,low GPA were nothing, GMAT was everything. I was wrong.Very wrong. Sandy from hbsguru crushed my hopes and said forget H&S, try other great ones.

A good school (20-25) may be possible, but the top tier, especially for 2009 when apps will soar due the recession, is not very likely...
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate! [#permalink] New post 10 May 2008, 12:35
At my undergrad college you had to have 2.0 or above to graduate, so in the US it is impossible to have a lower GPA than this guy :(
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Re: Low GPA profile. Please evaluate!   [#permalink] 10 May 2008, 12:35
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