Last visit was: 23 Apr 2024, 17:45 It is currently 23 Apr 2024, 17:45

Close
GMAT Club Daily Prep
Thank you for using the timer - this advanced tool can estimate your performance and suggest more practice questions. We have subscribed you to Daily Prep Questions via email.

Customized
for You

we will pick new questions that match your level based on your Timer History

Track
Your Progress

every week, we’ll send you an estimated GMAT score based on your performance

Practice
Pays

we will pick new questions that match your level based on your Timer History
Not interested in getting valuable practice questions and articles delivered to your email? No problem, unsubscribe here.
Close
Request Expert Reply
Confirm Cancel
SORT BY:
Date
Tags:
Show Tags
Hide Tags
User avatar
Manager
Manager
Joined: 08 Oct 2009
Posts: 63
Own Kudos [?]: 64 [27]
Given Kudos: 6
Location: Denmark, Europe
Concentration: General Management, Finance
Schools:Darden Class of 2012
 Q49  V40
Send PM
Most Helpful Reply
User avatar
Manager
Manager
Joined: 13 Oct 2009
Affiliations: PMP
Posts: 153
Own Kudos [?]: 250 [13]
Given Kudos: 38
 Q48  V32
Send PM
Math Expert
Joined: 02 Sep 2009
Posts: 92883
Own Kudos [?]: 618596 [9]
Given Kudos: 81563
Send PM
General Discussion
User avatar
Current Student
Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 39
Own Kudos [?]: 26 [7]
Given Kudos: 4
Concentration: Finance, Entrepreneurship
 Q49  V25
GPA: 3.1
Send PM
Re: From a group of 4 professors and 6 students, a supervisory committee [#permalink]
6
Kudos
1
Bookmarks
It should be easier to solve "at least" questions in this way.

All combinations are 10C3,

Combinations of all students are 6C3,

10C3-6C3=at least one professor combi.

thanx :P
User avatar
Current Student
Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 39
Own Kudos [?]: 26 [0]
Given Kudos: 4
Concentration: Finance, Entrepreneurship
 Q49  V25
GPA: 3.1
Send PM
Re: From a group of 4 professors and 6 students, a supervisory committee [#permalink]
andershv wrote:

My question is why the logic behind my proposed solution is wrong. Can anybody please explain?


you count up combinations twice.

4*9*8... and let me name 6 with students A,B,C,..,F
after choosing a professor, when you choose Student A and B, you can choose A first, then B. Or B first, then A. Both combination are same.
User avatar
Manager
Manager
Joined: 08 Oct 2009
Posts: 63
Own Kudos [?]: 64 [1]
Given Kudos: 6
Location: Denmark, Europe
Concentration: General Management, Finance
Schools:Darden Class of 2012
 Q49  V40
Send PM
Re: From a group of 4 professors and 6 students, a supervisory committee [#permalink]
1
Kudos
yuskay wrote:
andershv wrote:

My question is why the logic behind my proposed solution is wrong. Can anybody please explain?


you count up combinations twice.

4*9*8... and let me name 6 with students A,B,C,..,F
after choosing a professor, when you choose Student A and B, you can choose A first, then B. Or B first, then A. Both combination are same.


I don't think that's the only mistake.

100 is a factor of = 2^2*5^2
288 is a factor of = 2^5*3^2.

These are very different numbers and you cannot divide 288 with something to get to 100.
User avatar
Manager
Manager
Joined: 08 Oct 2009
Posts: 63
Own Kudos [?]: 64 [0]
Given Kudos: 6
Location: Denmark, Europe
Concentration: General Management, Finance
Schools:Darden Class of 2012
 Q49  V40
Send PM
Re: From a group of 4 professors and 6 students, a supervisory committee [#permalink]
Yes, it's clear now!

Thanks Bunuel, you're a great sport!
User avatar
Senior Manager
Senior Manager
Joined: 23 Apr 2010
Posts: 476
Own Kudos [?]: 352 [1]
Given Kudos: 7
Send PM
Re: From a group of 4 professors and 6 students, a supervisory committee [#permalink]
1
Kudos
Here's quoting Ian Stewart.

Quote:
Say your professors are A, B, C and D, and we choose a committee of three professors. If we choose A first, then choose B and C, we get the same committee as if we choose B first, then choose A and C; the order of the three professors does not matter. In your solution, you are assuming that the order of the professors does, at least partly, matter - you're picking one professor as the 'first professor', and then you're selecting the rest of the committee. Because of that, you're overcounting.

The answer you give would be correct if the question assigned a position to one of the committee members - for example, if it asked 'If a three person committee will be chosen, and one professor must be chosen as the chairperson of the committee, how many committees can be chosen?" We're then assigning a position to one professor, and your solution would be correct.


The mistake is clear now.
avatar
Intern
Intern
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 5
Own Kudos [?]: 10 [0]
Given Kudos: 2
Send PM
Re: From a group of 4 professors and 6 students, a supervisory committee [#permalink]
Can someone confirm if my logic makes any sense? (or if I am making stuff up because I found the correct answer somewhere else?). So...here we go.

10!/7!3! - This one highlights that there will be a committee to be formed out of a pool of 10 people. 7 of which will not get in and 3 of which will get in. The total for this item is 120. However, the 120 does not take into consideration the constraint highlighted in the problem which says that the committee must include one professor. (In the denominator, 3!, accounts for 3! individuals...but we don't know which ones are professors or students).

In order to accommodate for the constraint, we have to go out and calculate the composition of the committee if it didn't include professors. So we come up with...

6!/3!3! - 6 possible students that can get in. 3 which make the cut and the other 3 which do not. The total for this calculation yields 20.

So...now that we know that 20 only considers students, we need to go back and subtract that from the original calculation since that is a constraint in the problem. (i.e. the problem says it must include at least one professor

Based on that 120-20 = 100...(E).

Thoughts?
Math Expert
Joined: 02 Sep 2009
Posts: 92883
Own Kudos [?]: 618596 [1]
Given Kudos: 81563
Send PM
Re: From a group of 4 professors and 6 students, a supervisory committee [#permalink]
1
Kudos
Expert Reply
jgonza8 wrote:
Can someone confirm if my logic makes any sense? (or if I am making stuff up because I found the correct answer somewhere else?). So...here we go.

10!/7!3! - This one highlights that there will be a committee to be formed out of a pool of 10 people. 7 of which will not get in and 3 of which will get in. The total for this item is 120. However, the 120 does not take into consideration the constraint highlighted in the problem which says that the committee must include one professor. (In the denominator, 3!, accounts for 3! individuals...but we don't know which ones are professors or students).

In order to accommodate for the constraint, we have to go out and calculate the composition of the committee if it didn't include professors. So we come up with...

6!/3!3! - 6 possible students that can get in. 3 which make the cut and the other 3 which do not. The total for this calculation yields 20.

So...now that we know that 20 only considers students, we need to go back and subtract that from the original calculation since that is a constraint in the problem. (i.e. the problem says it must include at least one professor

Based on that 120-20 = 100...(E).

Thoughts?


All is correct except the red part. The committee has to include at least 1 professor (not one as you've written).

{The committees with at least one professor} = {Total committees possible} - {The committees with zero professors} (so minus the committees with only students in them).

\(C^3_{10}-C^3_6=\frac{10}{7!*3!}-\frac{6!}{3!*3!}=120-20=100\).

Or direct approach:

{The committees with at least one professor} = {The committees with 1 professor / 2 students} + {The committees with 2 professors / 1 student} + {The committees with 3 professors / 0 students}:

\(C^1_4*C^2_6+C^2_4*C^1_6+C^3_4=100\).

Hope it's clear.
User avatar
Senior Manager
Senior Manager
Joined: 07 Apr 2014
Status:Math is psycho-logical
Posts: 340
Own Kudos [?]: 386 [0]
Given Kudos: 169
Location: Netherlands
GMAT Date: 02-11-2015
WE:Psychology and Counseling (Other)
Re: From a group of 4 professors and 6 students, a supervisory committee [#permalink]
In this problem, may I ask why we divided by the part in red?

10!/(7!3!) - 6!/(3!3!) = 100

I understand the idea, and the first part is perfectly clear. I understand subtracting the possibility of no teachers, but what does 3!3! mean?
Now, I understand why it is not 6!/3!, but in this case 3!3! seems to mean 3 students selected and 3 not selected. Or not...?
GMAT Club Legend
GMAT Club Legend
Joined: 19 Dec 2014
Status:GMAT Assassin/Co-Founder
Affiliations: EMPOWERgmat
Posts: 21846
Own Kudos [?]: 11664 [0]
Given Kudos: 450
Location: United States (CA)
GMAT 1: 800 Q51 V49
GRE 1: Q170 V170
Send PM
Re: From a group of 4 professors and 6 students, a supervisory committee [#permalink]
Expert Reply
Hi pacifist85,

The approach that you are referencing is meant to do the entire calculation in one gigantic "move", which I'm not a big fan of. It's simple enough to break the calculation into 3 "pieces" and then add together the results.

However, since you asked though, this calculation is based on two ideas:

1) You have to choose 3 people from a group of 10 (that's the first part of the calculation)
2) Since the group has to include at least 1 professor, you CAN'T have a group that is made up of 3 students.

Since there are 6 total students, there are 6!/3!3! different groups of 3 students that could be formed. We have to REMOVE those options from the prior part of the calculation. This gives us:

(All possible groups of 3) - (All groups of 3 that are JUST students) = (groups of 3 with at least 1 professor).

GMAT assassins aren't born, they're made,
Rich
User avatar
Intern
Intern
Joined: 05 Aug 2015
Posts: 31
Own Kudos [?]: 351 [0]
Given Kudos: 36
Send PM
Re: From a group of 4 professors and 6 students, a supervisory committee [#permalink]
Can someone please help me understand why is 6C3 (choose 3 students from 6 students) = 6!/(3!3!) so 6*5*4/(3*2) -->20 ways, instead of simply 6*5*4 following the reasoning that choice #1 - you can pick from 6 students, choice #2 - you can pick from 5 students, and finally choice #3 - you can pick from 4 students.

Thanks so much!
GMAT Club Legend
GMAT Club Legend
Joined: 19 Dec 2014
Status:GMAT Assassin/Co-Founder
Affiliations: EMPOWERgmat
Posts: 21846
Own Kudos [?]: 11664 [1]
Given Kudos: 450
Location: United States (CA)
GMAT 1: 800 Q51 V49
GRE 1: Q170 V170
Send PM
Re: From a group of 4 professors and 6 students, a supervisory committee [#permalink]
1
Kudos
Expert Reply
Hi happyface101,

In these types of questions, it's important to determine whether the 'order' of the people matters. Often, the prompt will use certain vocabulary when referencing a permutation ("arrangements") or combination ('groups"). If you aren't given any obvious 'clues' to work with, you have to think critically about what the question is actually asking you to do.

When forming a basic 'group', the order of the group won't matter:

eg
A group made up of A, B and C is the SAME group as one that is made up of B, C and A. Thus, we cannot count this group more than once.

IF... we're assigning roles to the members of a group, then the order DOES matter.

eg.
We have a group of 3 people; one is the president, one is the secretary and one is the treasurer. In this scenario, the order matters, so there are (3)(2)(1) = 6 groups.

Interestingly enough, many of these types of prompts can be solved with EITHER approach, but you have to adjust your calculations accordingly.

GMAT assassins aren't born, they're made,
Rich
User avatar
Non-Human User
Joined: 09 Sep 2013
Posts: 32629
Own Kudos [?]: 821 [0]
Given Kudos: 0
Send PM
Re: From a group of 4 professors and 6 students, a supervisory committee [#permalink]
Hello from the GMAT Club BumpBot!

Thanks to another GMAT Club member, I have just discovered this valuable topic, yet it had no discussion for over a year. I am now bumping it up - doing my job. I think you may find it valuable (esp those replies with Kudos).

Want to see all other topics I dig out? Follow me (click follow button on profile). You will receive a summary of all topics I bump in your profile area as well as via email.
GMAT Club Bot
Re: From a group of 4 professors and 6 students, a supervisory committee [#permalink]
Moderators:
Math Expert
92883 posts
Senior Moderator - Masters Forum
3137 posts

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group | Emoji artwork provided by EmojiOne