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Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs

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Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2013, 08:47
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Not sure if you’re aware, but there are b-schools outside of the US, friends. And good ones, at that! Programs that are absolutely worth lookin’ into. (And there's even a forum dedicated to them right here: [urlhttp://gmatclub.com/forum/the-b-school-application-canada-south-america-asia-australia-and-europe-106/?fl=menu[/url] In fact, for many of you, European MBA programs might even be better than the typical 2-year MBA programs we have here in the states (especially this late in the application game).


Why? I’ll give you 5 great reasons:

1) Admissions Can Be Less Competitive (in Some Ways)

Look at the stats, my friends. Average GMAT scores tend to be…LOWER. Average TOEFL scores tend to be… LOWER. Even with GPAs, there is more flexibility here. Why is that? Well, lots of reasons. Most relevant is the fact that most folks are often not native US speakers. So as a result, you can afford juuust a bit more leeway on your scores. That should be a relief for lots of folks in the GMAT of 660-710 range…

2) They Tend to Have Older Applicants

If you are a tad older than the typical 3-4-5 years out of college range of applicants, then you should take a GOOD look at these programs. Why? Because European programs tend to have older students. This is a GREAT chance for older candidates to get a TOP-NOTCH education, and not be discriminated against by the current trend in the US of students getting younger and younger…

3) They are (mostly) 1-Year Programs

Why do older applicants like International programs? Well, here’s one great reason: the programs are shorter! For the young husbands and fathers among us, we can’t necessarily afford to take two WHOLE years off. In those two years, we lose a ton of income and TIME. European MBA programs tend to be just one year long, so older applicants LOVE the ability to get in, and get right out.

4) They have an International Focus

Is your goal NOT necessarily to live and work in the US? Then…why bother going to the US to get your MBA? The programs in Europe tend to be MUCH more internationally oriented, with the overwhelming majority of students from OUTSIDE the school’s country. This lends itself to a very different kind of discussion, as you can imagine, than that which happens in the US programs. European (and Asian) MBA programs are MUCH more international in nature. If you are passionate about international business, then give these programs a GOOD look!

5) Many Have STELLAR Job Placement

That’s right, folks. Take a good look at the statistics; starting salaries are often HIGHER at European Programs than at US programs. Don’t believe me? Here’s an example: the average starting salary at LBS was $146,000, at INSEAD it was $148,000, and at IE it was $149,000. All these salaries are higher than the starting salaries at NYU Stern ($139,000), Duke ($137,000) and Ross ($137,000). So, as always my friends, investigate the facts before you assume that US programs will get you to a better place upon graduation…

Considering a 1-year jaunt in Europe? Maybe you should?

If got any questions folks, just post em riiiight here. I'm gonna be popping in to answer them and help however I can.
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Last edited by JonAdmissionado on 16 Jan 2013, 09:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2013, 09:10
JonAdmissionado wrote:
Not sure if you’re aware, but there are b-schools outside of the US, friends.(yep, there's even a forum dedicated to them right here: [urlhttp://gmatclub.com/forum/the-b-school-application-canada-south-america-asia-australia-and-europe-106/?fl=menu[/url]

And good ones, at that! Programs that are absolutely worth lookin’ into. In fact, for many of you, European MBA programs might even be better than the typical 2-year MBA programs we have here in the states (especially this late in the application game).

Why? I’ll give you 5 great reasons:

1) Admissions Can Be Less Competitive (in Some Ways)

Look at the stats, my friends. Average GMAT scores tend to be…LOWER. Average TOEFL scores tend to be… LOWER. Even with GPAs, there is more flexibility here. Why is that? Well, lots of reasons. Most relevant is the fact that most folks are often not native US speakers. So as a result, you can afford juuust a bit more leeway on your scores. That should be a relief for lots of folks in the GMAT of 660-710 range…

2) They Tend to Have Older Applicants

If you are a tad older than the typical 3-4-5 years out of college range of applicants, then you should take a GOOD look at these programs. Why? Because European programs tend to have older students. This is a GREAT chance for older candidates to get a TOP-NOTCH education, and not be discriminated against by the current trend in the US of students getting younger and younger…

3) They are (mostly) 1-Year Programs

Why do older applicants like International programs? Well, here’s one great reason: the programs are shorter! For the young husbands and fathers among us, we can’t necessarily afford to take two WHOLE years off. In those two years, we lose a ton of income and TIME. European MBA programs tend to be just one year long, so older applicants LOVE the ability to get in, and get right out.

4) They have an International Focus

Is your goal NOT necessarily to live and work in the US? Then…why bother going to the US to get your MBA? The programs in Europe tend to be MUCH more internationally oriented, with the overwhelming majority of students from OUTSIDE the school’s country. This lends itself to a very different kind of discussion, as you can imagine, than that which happens in the US programs. European (and Asian) MBA programs are MUCH more international in nature. If you are passionate about international business, then give these programs a GOOD look!

5) Many Have STELLAR Job Placement

That’s right, folks. Take a good look at the statistics; starting salaries are often HIGHER at European Programs than at US programs. Don’t believe me? Here’s an example: the average starting salary at LBS was $146,000, at INSEAD it was $148,000, and at IE it was $149,000. All these salaries are higher than the starting salaries at NYU Stern ($139,000), Duke ($137,000) and Ross ($137,000). So, as always my friends, investigate the facts before you assume that US programs will get you to a better place upon graduation…

Considering a 1-year jaunt in Europe? Maybe you should?

And if got any questions folks, just post em riiiight here.

Thanks for the informative post. I've a couple of comments on these points, especially competition and placements.
There are hardly 5-6 tier 1 colleges in Europe. Considering number of nationalities represented at these schools, competition might be just as tough as in any top college in US.
Moving on to salaries and placements- while salaries at top European colleges are at par with top 20 US colleges, employment at graduation/3 months is not as attractive in Europe apart from LBS, INSEAD and IMD. 1 year option may not be as good for people opting for industry/ function change.
Getting work authorization in Europe also appears to be stricter.
I'm on the older side of the applicant pool, come from a large Indian it pool. I started my MBA plan with 1 yr programs in mind.I would love to hear your opinion.
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2013, 09:22
JonAdmissionado wrote:

5) Many Have STELLAR Job Placement

That’s right, folks. Take a good look at the statistics; starting salaries are often HIGHER at European Programs than at US programs. Don’t believe me? Here’s an example: the average starting salary at LBS was $146,000, at INSEAD it was $148,000, and at IE it was $149,000. All these salaries are higher than the starting salaries at NYU Stern ($139,000), Duke ($137,000) and Ross ($137,000). So, as always my friends, investigate the facts before you assume that US programs will get you to a better place upon graduation…
.


What type of Job Functions and which Companies?
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2013, 09:31
JonAdmissionado wrote:
Not sure if you’re aware, but there are b-schools outside of the US, friends.(yep, there's even a forum dedicated to them right here: [urlhttp://gmatclub.com/forum/the-b-school-application-canada-south-america-asia-australia-and-europe-106/?fl=menu[/url]

And good ones, at that! Programs that are absolutely worth lookin’ into. In fact, for many of you, European MBA programs might even be better than the typical 2-year MBA programs we have here in the states (especially this late in the application game).

Why? I’ll give you 5 great reasons:

1) Admissions Can Be Less Competitive (in Some Ways)

Look at the stats, my friends. Average GMAT scores tend to be…LOWER. Average TOEFL scores tend to be… LOWER. Even with GPAs, there is more flexibility here. Why is that? Well, lots of reasons. Most relevant is the fact that most folks are often not native US speakers. So as a result, you can afford juuust a bit more leeway on your scores. That should be a relief for lots of folks in the GMAT of 660-710 range…

2) They Tend to Have Older Applicants

If you are a tad older than the typical 3-4-5 years out of college range of applicants, then you should take a GOOD look at these programs. Why? Because European programs tend to have older students. This is a GREAT chance for older candidates to get a TOP-NOTCH education, and not be discriminated against by the current trend in the US of students getting younger and younger…

3) They are (mostly) 1-Year Programs

Why do older applicants like International programs? Well, here’s one great reason: the programs are shorter! For the young husbands and fathers among us, we can’t necessarily afford to take two WHOLE years off. In those two years, we lose a ton of income and TIME. European MBA programs tend to be just one year long, so older applicants LOVE the ability to get in, and get right out.

4) They have an International Focus

Is your goal NOT necessarily to live and work in the US? Then…why bother going to the US to get your MBA? The programs in Europe tend to be MUCH more internationally oriented, with the overwhelming majority of students from OUTSIDE the school’s country. This lends itself to a very different kind of discussion, as you can imagine, than that which happens in the US programs. European (and Asian) MBA programs are MUCH more international in nature. If you are passionate about international business, then give these programs a GOOD look!

5) Many Have STELLAR Job Placement

That’s right, folks. Take a good look at the statistics; starting salaries are often HIGHER at European Programs than at US programs. Don’t believe me? Here’s an example: the average starting salary at LBS was $146,000, at INSEAD it was $148,000, and at IE it was $149,000. All these salaries are higher than the starting salaries at NYU Stern ($139,000), Duke ($137,000) and Ross ($137,000). So, as always my friends, investigate the facts before you assume that US programs will get you to a better place upon graduation…

Considering a 1-year jaunt in Europe? Maybe you should?

And if got any questions folks, just post em riiiight here.


1) Lower GMAT and TOEFL score doesn`t mean to be less competitive. It is just specifics of the region because most MBAs on these programs are from non English speaking countries. BTW frankly speaking GMAT is not so important item in your application package.

2) True. "US programs" tend to be a bit younger.

3) True. I know only several schools out of more than 50 in EU with the duration more than 12 months.

4) True. EU schools are generaly more diversed.

5) Doubtful. Most EU MBAs find jobs in EU and the taxes in EU are SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER than in US. Additionally european job market is very weak (now). Dont forget about work permit for foreigners and reluctance of local employers to hire MBAs without work permit. IMHO in US job market is much more stronger (now).

But keep in mind that there are only 2-3 TOP schools in EU. LBS and INSEAD. The other schools more likely belonged to the regional elites and focused more on regional market. From my point of view in studying in EU has more "cons" than "pros". However if you are from, let say, France or Spain and have fluent french/spanish and going to build your career in France/Spain then HEC / IE or IESE (2Y program) are more preferable than let say Darden but less preferable then ANY TOP 5-7 US schools.

IMHO.
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2013, 11:55
I see what you are trying to say here Jon. But, I'll add a couple of points from my interaction with IE alums. (a couple of weeks back)

1.) It is hard for internationals to land up in a few industries that require (significant) client interaction eg consulting. Particularly, because of language issues. There are countries & organizations where primary language is English, but there are many others where you get excluded from the recruitment process because you dont know a language. In short, its difficult.
2.) The local economy is bad (nothing new) and on top of that, a 'very' difficult work-visa process adds to the troubles.

This post is not meant to undermine IE, but presents a ground situation through an alum of one of the best schools in EU.

Best
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2013, 12:08
Another reason. Living in the US seriously limits options for interesting weekend trips. Instead, living in, say London, a 3-hour flight can land in many different countries. For many this is not a concern but I believe if can significantly enhance the experience.
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 21 Jan 2013, 20:37
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Vips0000 wrote:
Thanks for the informative post. I've a couple of comments on these points, especially competition and placements.
There are hardly 5-6 tier 1 colleges in Europe. Considering number of nationalities represented at these schools, competition might be just as tough as in any top college in US.
Moving on to salaries and placements- while salaries at top European colleges are at par with top 20 US colleges, employment at graduation/3 months is not as attractive in Europe apart from LBS, INSEAD and IMD. 1 year option may not be as good for people opting for industry/ function change.
Getting work authorization in Europe also appears to be stricter.
I'm on the older side of the applicant pool, come from a large Indian it pool. I started my MBA plan with 1 yr programs in mind.I would love to hear your opinion.


You got it dude...
So first regarding your comment about Tier 1 programs, I concur... sort of... meaning if you are talking about real global prestige, I totally agree.. if you are zooming in on the national scale, things become faaaaar more complex, and there tend to be more options than many people consider...

On to your employment comments - also agree (sort of) but keep two things in mind 1. The European Social system covers many costs (And also requires higher tax payments.. perhaps these balance) 2. One of the reasons for the greater difficulty of finding a job is the relative inflexibility of the job market... buuuuuut, unlike in the US in many countries, once you get a contract you are hired for life (very hard to lose your job due to social protection) which is of course one of the reasons for the inflexibility of the job market... but again you need to consider these things on a country by country basis.

As for work authorization.... hmmmm.. I think there are many anecdotes pulling in both positions, buuut from what I have seen, most people get offers, and those with offers get papers...

As for your personal application.. you seem a good fir for Euro programs... but I would need to know more before thinking with you further....
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 21 Jan 2013, 20:45
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alexpiers wrote:
1) Lower GMAT and TOEFL score doesn`t mean to be less competitive. It is just specifics of the region because most MBAs on these programs are from non English speaking countries. BTW frankly speaking GMAT is not so important item in your application package.

2) True. "US programs" tend to be a bit younger.

3) True. I know only several schools out of more than 50 in EU with the duration more than 12 months.

4) True. EU schools are generaly more diversed.

5) Doubtful. Most EU MBAs find jobs in EU and the taxes in EU are SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER than in US. Additionally european job market is very weak (now). Dont forget about work permit for foreigners and reluctance of local employers to hire MBAs without work permit. IMHO in US job market is much more stronger (now).

But keep in mind that there are only 2-3 TOP schools in EU. LBS and INSEAD. The other schools more likely belonged to the regional elites and focused more on regional market. From my point of view in studying in EU has more "cons" than "pros". However if you are from, let say, France or Spain and have fluent french/spanish and going to build your career in France/Spain then HEC / IE or IESE (2Y program) are more preferable than let say Darden but less preferable then ANY TOP 5-7 US schools.

IMHO.


1. True that lower GMAT and GPA does not necessarily mean "less competitive".. perhaps I could have been more precise... but let's put it this way.. they are less significant than they are for American programs... (hence, less competitive in one sense at least)... I may disagree with your last statement about them not being important (for the Adcoms at least... not to get into a philosophical debate about the value or lack thereof of the GMAT)... finally, GMAT can also be important for hiring in some industries, esp. Consulting
2.:)
3. :)
4. :) yep. it's also their main selling point
5. Debatable here.. and I think it is impossible actually to compare "Europe" with the "US" but you would have to go to a country by country basis to glean any really valid analysis. As for the taxes, you are most certainly right in one sense... but also it's important to factor in the benefits of the more socialized systems (5 weeks vacation, parental leave of up to 18 months, healthcare, etc. etc.) Again these things are sooo complex (and honestly, I am not aware about each individual situation of each country), but bear looking into.

With your last point, I would also tend to agree... that ultimately, the Top US programs have more impact than the Top Euro programs.... but they still are good options for many!
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 21 Jan 2013, 20:50
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jumsumtak wrote:
I see what you are trying to say here Jon. But, I'll add a couple of points from my interaction with IE alums. (a couple of weeks back)

1.) It is hard for internationals to land up in a few industries that require (significant) client interaction eg consulting. Particularly, because of language issues. There are countries & organizations where primary language is English, but there are many others where you get excluded from the recruitment process because you dont know a language. In short, its difficult.
2.) The local economy is bad (nothing new) and on top of that, a 'very' difficult work-visa process adds to the troubles.

This post is not meant to undermine IE, but presents a ground situation through an alum of one of the best schools in EU.

Best


1) Very good point And I agree to an extent. You cannot build your career 10 years into the future in a country if you are unwilling to master the language... and it can be very helpful. Even better would be to speak three or four and set yourself up as a pan-European consultant...
2. Hmmmm. I'm not an economist... but I would at the very least suggest looking at things on a country by country basis.... also, just because growth numbers have been bad for a few quarters or years (in Europe as a whole) does not suggest that there are not excellent jobs to be had. (esp if you were to graduate from the top programs) Actually in many high skill-based industries (Pharma, Hi-Tech, Industry) there are in many countries a great dearth of qualified applicants... and here too I would say to potential applicants that they need to zoom in closer and look at the situation for their target industry in their target country (ies)
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 21 Jan 2013, 20:52
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Ducksworth wrote:
Another reason. Living in the US seriously limits options for interesting weekend trips. Instead, living in, say London, a 3-hour flight can land in many different countries. For many this is not a concern but I believe if can significantly enhance the experience.


Haha! Well, a good point perhaps! But you know in the US New Mexico aint Montana, and the Louisiana Bayou is might different from the rolling hills of SF
:)
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 26 Jan 2013, 04:03
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Very good discussion going on... :) great job Jon for kicking off the same.

Look forward to see more comments pumping in soon...!

Jon-as you've mentioned that you're also not aware of each individual situation of each country, could you please let us know then where we can have the information man..?!

Is it Yaron or somebody else from your excellent team who can jump in to this thread to help us to get acclimatized ourselves to the situations in different European countries such as France,UK,Spain,Swtizerland,Italy,Germany etc. ?

Appreciate your reply.

Hey Jon,
Awaiting your response man !

Also-to ALL other Admission Consultants(especially European experts) in the forum-it would be really helpful for the GMAT Clubbers(like me who are interested in European programs apart from US ones) if you please be kind enough to provide your feedback on this...!
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 10 Feb 2013, 11:38
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debayan222 wrote:
Very good discussion going on... :) great job Jon for kicking off the same.

Look forward to see more comments pumping in soon...!

Jon-as you've mentioned that you're also not aware of each individual situation of each country, could you please let us know then where we can have the information man..?!

Is it Yaron or somebody else from your excellent team who can jump in to this thread to help us to get acclimatized ourselves to the situations in different European countries such as France,UK,Spain,Swtizerland,Italy,Germany etc. ?

Appreciate your reply.



Hey Jon,
Awaiting your response man !

Also-to ALL other Admission Consultants(especially European experts) in the forum-it would be really helpful for the GMAT Clubbers(like me who are interested in European programs apart from US ones) if you please be kind enough to provide your feedback on this...!

Much appreciate any expert's feedback :)
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 11 Feb 2013, 15:33
debayan222 wrote:
... help us to get acclimatized ourselves to the situations in different European countries such as France,UK,Spain,Swtizerland,Italy,Germany etc. ?


Go to http://www.bloomberg.com/markets and look at the 5-year indexes of the countries you are interested in. This will tell you the whole story.
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2013, 05:18
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debayan222 wrote:
Very good discussion going on... :) great job Jon for kicking off the same.

Look forward to see more comments pumping in soon...!

Jon-as you've mentioned that you're also not aware of each individual situation of each country, could you please let us know then where we can have the information man..?!

Is it Yaron or somebody else from your excellent team who can jump in to this thread to help us to get acclimatized ourselves to the situations in different European countries such as France,UK,Spain,Swtizerland,Italy,Germany etc. ?

Appreciate your reply.

Hey Jon,
Awaiting your response man !

Also-to ALL other Admission Consultants(especially European experts) in the forum-it would be really helpful for the GMAT Clubbers(like me who are interested in European programs apart from US ones) if you please be kind enough to provide your feedback on this...!


The Bloomberg link is a good place to start.. but its probably more helpful if you look also by industry, and the best way to do that is get in touch with specific people in your industry. I mean some places have awesome Energy industries, others have great finance markets and so on.

Yaron is definitely a good place to go.. I mean he's lived in like three or four of those countries, and knows those Euro schools inside out.
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2013, 06:45
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JonAdmissionado wrote:
debayan222 wrote:
Very good discussion going on... :) great job Jon for kicking off the same.

Look forward to see more comments pumping in soon...!

Jon-as you've mentioned that you're also not aware of each individual situation of each country, could you please let us know then where we can have the information man..?!

Is it Yaron or somebody else from your excellent team who can jump in to this thread to help us to get acclimatized ourselves to the situations in different European countries such as France,UK,Spain,Swtizerland,Italy,Germany etc. ?

Appreciate your reply.

Hey Jon,
Awaiting your response man !

Also-to ALL other Admission Consultants(especially European experts) in the forum-it would be really helpful for the GMAT Clubbers(like me who are interested in European programs apart from US ones) if you please be kind enough to provide your feedback on this...!


The Bloomberg link is a good place to start.. but its probably more helpful if you look also by industry, and the best way to do that is get in touch with specific people in your industry. I mean some places have awesome Energy industries, others have great finance markets and so on.

Yaron is definitely a good place to go.. I mean he's lived in like three or four of those countries, and knows those Euro schools inside out.


Thanks Jon for your reply...

But, how do I get to Yaron? As I don't see him commenting on the forums that much...!
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 05 Mar 2013, 11:42
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Guys, by the way. Just wanted to share a little something with you that may be helpful as you're working on those European applications. Check out the PDF attached. Should give you some good info on the programs in Europe, as well as strategies for those schools specifically.

As always, if you have questions, leave 'em here. Or feel free to shoot us an email: info@admissionado.com.

Cheers!
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 19 Jun 2013, 08:43
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Hey Jon-
Could you please let me know like INSEAD & IE whether LBS,Said & Judge also have rolling admissions and two intakes (for example, one in September 2014 and other in January 2015)...?

For these European schools, is it always best to apply in R1 rather than in R2 like US schools...?
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 19 Jun 2013, 23:41
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Sure thing!
IE has rolling admissions, and INSEAD has two intakes. LBS SAID and Judge all have pretty much your 'normal' deadlines. And yes, the advantage of applying R1 is the same for Euro schools as for US schools.

Best,
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 20 Jun 2013, 00:08
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JonAdmissionado wrote:
Sure thing!
IE has rolling admissions, and INSEAD has two intakes. LBS SAID and Judge all have pretty much your 'normal' deadlines. And yes, the advantage of applying R1 is the same for Euro schools as for US schools.

Best,


Thanks for your reply Jon...

Can you please elaborate on IE's rolling admissions? What are the advantages over normal deadlines like R1 R2...?It has also two intakes I guess..?
I thought INSEAD also has same rolling admissions for its intakes..!
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs [#permalink] New post 24 Jun 2013, 20:42
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debayan222 wrote:
JonAdmissionado wrote:
Sure thing!
IE has rolling admissions, and INSEAD has two intakes. LBS SAID and Judge all have pretty much your 'normal' deadlines. And yes, the advantage of applying R1 is the same for Euro schools as for US schools.

Best,


Thanks for your reply Jon...

Can you please elaborate on IE's rolling admissions? What are the advantages over normal deadlines like R1 R2...?It has also two intakes I guess..?
I thought INSEAD also has same rolling admissions for its intakes..!


Well, the basic idea for rolling deadlines is that the earlier you get your application in, the better. Basically, strategically, this means that when we build an application calendar strategy, we want to get this school in as early in its deadline as we can, and you should do the same.
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Re: Making a case (or 5!) for European MBA Programs   [#permalink] 24 Jun 2013, 20:42
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