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Mel: The official salary for judges has always been too low

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Mel: The official salary for judges has always been too low [#permalink] New post 12 Jun 2008, 16:24
00:00
A
B
C
D
E

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(N/A)

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0% (00:00) correct 0% (00:00) wrong based on 1 sessions
Mel: The official salary for judges has always been too low to attract the best
Candidates to the job. The legislature’s move to raise the salary has
done nothing to improve the situation, because it was coupled with
a ban on receiving money for lectures and teaching engagements.
Pat: No, the raise in salary really does improve the situation. Since very few
judges teach or give lectures, the ban will have little or no negative
effect.
Pat’s response to Mel is inadequate in that it
A. attempts to assess how a certain change will affect potential members
of a group by providing evidence about its effect on the current members.
B. mistakenly takes the cause of a certain change to be an effect of that change
C. attempts to argue that a certain change will have a positive effect merely
by pointing to the absence of negative effects
D. simply denies Mel’s claim without putting forward any evidence in support
of that denial
E. assumes that changes that benefit the most able members of a group
necessarily benefit all members of that group.
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 12 Jun 2008, 16:33
I think it's A

A. attempts to assess how a certain change will affect potential members
of a group by providing evidence about its effect on the current members.

Current members don't teach or give lectures, but what about the candidates?
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 12 Jun 2008, 17:43
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 12 Jun 2008, 18:04
C for me.
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 13 Jun 2008, 09:10
Man...A and C both looks good...


Whats the OA???
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 13 Jun 2008, 09:20
i'm leaning towards A as well.
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 13 Jun 2008, 09:27
Guys, please explain your choices... why C?
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 13 Jun 2008, 10:04
I choose C for the reasons below. Against an answer in Red and For C in blue.

goalsnr wrote:
Mel: The official salary for judges has always been too low to attract the best
Candidates to the job. The legislature’s move to raise the salary has done nothing to improve the situation, because it was coupled with a ban on receiving money for lectures and teaching engagements.
Pat: No, the raise in salary really does improve the situation. Since very few judges teach or give lectures, the ban will have little or no negative effect.
Pat’s response to Mel is inadequate in that it
A. attempts to assess how a certain change will affect potential members
of a group by providing evidence about its effect on the current members.
This would not make Pat's response inadequate, in fact, if he had done this, it would have helped him. The effects on current members is how potential members decide if they want to become a judge. If the current judges are still adversely affected, then quality candidates will still not be interested. If you cut the salary of school teachers in half, that change affects the current teachers. This is good evidence that because of the negative change to current school teachers, few people who would be good teachers will actually want to become a teacher. Same concept here, so if used, this would not be an inadequate resposne (IMO).
B. mistakenly takes the cause of a certain change to be an effect of that change
Pat doesn't do this. This would be like me pushing someone over and them getting mad and my response being "No, i pushed him over because he got mad." Puts the cart before the horse, and Pat doesn't do this. The cause of the change (the legislature passing law) is not claimed to be the effect of the raise in salary coupled with the ban from teaching and lecturing.
C. attempts to argue that a certain change will have a positive effect merely
by pointing to the absence of negative effects
Pat says that because no, or few, judges teach or give lectures, the ban will have few or no negative effects. This is inadequate because the lack of a negative doesn't mean an improvement happened. It could me the status quo remained and qualified candidates still do not want to become judges.
D. simply denies Mel’s claim without putting forward any evidence in support
of that denial
Pat does offer evidence even if it's weak. His evidence is that few current judges teach or give lectures. This cannot be the answer because Pat DOES offer evidence.
E. assumes that changes that benefit the most able members of a group necessarily benefit all members of that group.
Pat dosn't talk about change benefitting any members of the group. Pat makes a sweeping statement that the salary change does improve the situation (not limited to the most able judges). It may appear this way because logically only the most able members will be asked to teach or lecture, but Pat doesn't make this argument. He limits his statement to the ban having little or no negative effects.

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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 13 Jun 2008, 18:11
ldpedroso wrote:
Guys, please explain your choices... why C?


I think jallenmorris has a more than good explaination why C should be OA?
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 13 Jun 2008, 19:04
For me 'B' looks good.

Here cause of change can be "to equate salaries of judges who do not teach with those who teaches" and effect is "there salaries become same" so pat clearly mistaken in taking the cause of a certain change to be an effect of that change.
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 13 Jun 2008, 23:49
CAN NOT BE C!!!
C says that "merely by pointing to the absence of negative effects' while she mentions little or absence.

A is the best answer.
They are evaluating the effect of change and the possibility of success. Hence, they disagree with each other.
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 14 Jun 2008, 06:04
I think it's about time for the OA.
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 14 Jun 2008, 06:17
no one likes E :-) ?
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 14 Jun 2008, 06:51
OK people its time for the OA and the winner is ..........................
-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------A

Jallen I fell for the same trap and selected C. But when I look at the CR I know my folly:

Pat in his reply considers only the current members. The current members may not be interested in earning extra money by giving lectures but the prospective candidates may be.
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 14 Jun 2008, 10:11
the issue at heart here is about attracting new judges..Pat arguments says Current judges dont give lectures..but what we dont know is, how will new to-be judges look at this..maybe new to-be judge will give more lectures...we dont know..

A is best!
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 14 Jun 2008, 11:19
Ok, I understand why the authors say A, but I think it's a weak and illogical argument.
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 14 Jun 2008, 15:34
A
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 14 Jun 2008, 17:24
jallenmorris wrote:
A. attempts to assess how a certain change will affect potential members
of a group by providing evidence about its effect on the current members.
This would not make Pat's response inadequate, in fact, if he had done this, it would have helped him. The effects on current members is how potential members decide if they want to become a judge. If the current judges are still adversely affected, then quality candidates will still not be interested. If you cut the salary of school teachers in half, that change affects the current teachers. This is good evidence that because of the negative change to current school teachers, few people who would be good teachers will actually want to become a teacher. Same concept here, so if used, this would not be an inadequate resposne (IMO).


tricky one, I am too general to see this ex. I think this explaination is the best to help me the trap! Thanks Jall
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 11 Feb 2009, 17:58
I chose C and the OA is listed as A.

I dont see Pat talking about current judges. I dont see the word current/now/present. She is just talking in general about judges not giving lectures in general.

Pat: No, the raise in salary really does improve the situation. Since very few judges teach or give lectures, the ban will have little or no negative effect.
Pat’s response to Mel is inadequate in that it
A. attempts to assess how a certain change will affect potential members
of a group by providing evidence about its effect on the current members.
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Re: CR - mel and Pat [#permalink] New post 11 Feb 2009, 23:33
When Pat is saying few judges teach or give lectures, it is understood that he z talking of present situation. Naturally, he z ignoring prospective judges.
icandy wrote:
I chose C and the OA is listed as A.

I dont see Pat talking about current judges. I dont see the word current/now/present. She is just talking in general about judges not giving lectures in general.

Pat: No, the raise in salary really does improve the situation. Since very few judges teach or give lectures, the ban will have little or no negative effect.
Pat’s response to Mel is inadequate in that it
A. attempts to assess how a certain change will affect potential members
of a group by providing evidence about its effect on the current members.
Re: CR - mel and Pat   [#permalink] 11 Feb 2009, 23:33
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