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New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show

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New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show [#permalink] New post 05 Oct 2010, 14:59
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New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, it saves seven dollars that would not be spent on having to extinguish big fires.

(A) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, it saves seven dollars that would not be spent on having to extinguish
(B) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, seven dollars are saved that would have been spent on extinguishing
(C) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel saves seven dollars on not having to extinguish
(D) for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, that it saves seven dollars on not having to extinguish
(E) for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management
personnel, that seven dollars are saved that would not have been spent on extinguishing

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Last edited by wininblue on 05 Oct 2010, 15:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OG-12 Diagnostic - Tough SC - Q36 [#permalink] New post 05 Oct 2010, 15:02
Please underline the sentence to help you :wink:
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Re: OG-12 Diagnostic - Tough SC - Q36 [#permalink] New post 05 Oct 2010, 15:15
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wininblue wrote:
I have a very specific question - what is the role of this clause - "that would not have been spent on extinguishing" in :
personnel, that seven dollars are saved "that would not have been spent on extinguishing"

What is this relative clause modifying?

Please help!


B

I didn't understand very well your question , but: In B, "that would have been spent on extinguishing" is modifying " seven dollars". The relative clause is providing additional information about that money.

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Re: OG-12 Diagnostic - Tough SC - Q36 [#permalink] New post 05 Oct 2010, 15:39
Apologies for not underlinging the sent. earlier.

Let me make my q little more clear:
in the clause: seven dollars are saved "that would not have been spent on extinguishing"
this clause : "that would not have been spent on extinguishing" doesnt act as a relative pronoun because it is touching "saved" which is a verb, and not a noun.

It seems to be a noun Direct Noun Object
Seven dollars are saved - these seven dollors would have been spent on extinguishing - "that" replaces "these seven dollars"
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Re: OG-12 Diagnostic - Tough SC - Q36 [#permalink] New post 05 Oct 2010, 15:51
wininblue wrote:
Apologies for not underlinging the sent. earlier.

Let me make my q little more clear:
in the clause: seven dollars are saved "that would not have been spent on extinguishing"
this clause : "that would not have been spent on extinguishing" doesnt act as a relative pronoun because it is touching "saved" which is a verb, and not a noun.

It seems to be a noun Direct Noun Object
Seven dollars are saved - these seven dollors would have been spent on extinguishing - "that" replaces "these seven dollars"


Yes, I agree with you. That part is not clear.
However, I read that the only case in which the noun must be behind touching the clause is when you use "which". For example: Hey, listen this new song of Metallica, WHICH is the best heavy metal band in the world.
As you can see, the noun and "which" are together. Please notice that there is a comma (it's very important!).
I'm not 100% sure of what I'm telling you (my native language is not English), but it is working for me :-D
Finally, notice that you can solve this question without worrying about that part of the sentence.

Hope it helps 8-)
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Re: OG-12 Diagnostic - Tough SC - Q36 [#permalink] New post 03 Sep 2011, 04:17
the clause modifies seven dollars
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Re: OG-12 Diagnostic - Tough SC - Q36 [#permalink] New post 03 Sep 2011, 04:24
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New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show that for every dollar spent on controlled small scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire management personnel, it saves seven dollars that would not be spent on having to extinguish big fires.
(A) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, it saves seven dollars that would not be spent on having to extinguish
(B) that for every dollar spent on controlled small scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, seven dollars are saved that would have been spent on extinguishing
(C) that for every dollar spent on controlled small scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel saves seven dollars on not having to extinguish
(D) for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire management
personnel, that it saves seven dollars on not having to extinguish
(E) for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire management

The first error to notice in the sentence is parallelism. The for every dollar spent... seven dollars are saved is parallel.
Also, the pronoun 'it' has missing anrecedent. New data from United States.. is the subject of the sentence. However, the data cannot be an antecedent as it does not make sense to say that the new data saves seven dollars.
Also, United States forest service ecologists cannot be an antecedent either. United states forest service is the noun that pronoun represents here. But the antecedent must be present as a noun. Here the United states forest service acts as an adjective. Ecologists is the noun. Hence, the sentence has an illogical antecedent and it is a pronoun error. Note that ambiguous pronouns are NOT ALWAYS an error, in that had United States Forst service been present as a noun in this sentence 'it' would have had an ambiguous antecedent. However, this might have been acceptable as seen again and again and again in sentence correction.

The major pronoun traps are - possesives, nouns present as adjectices (as both can't act as antecedents), missing or illogical antecedents and antecedent and pronoun not agreeing in number. Ambiguos pronoun is not a definite issue unless we hava a better choice! :)
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Re: New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show [#permalink] New post 10 Dec 2011, 23:06
B because seven dollar is being modified.
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Re: New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show [#permalink] New post 08 Nov 2012, 23:57
Quote:
New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, it saves seven dollars that would not be spent on having to extinguish big fires.

(A) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, it saves seven dollars that would not be spent on having to extinguish
(B) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, seven dollars are saved that would have been spent on extinguishing
(C) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel saves seven dollars on not having to extinguish
(D) for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, that it saves seven dollars on not having to extinguish
(E) for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management
personnel, that seven dollars are saved that would not have been spent on extinguishing


For option B, i have a question:
(B) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, seven dollars are saved that would have been spent on extinguishing

why not using this: 'seven dollars that would have been spent on extinguishing are saved' ?

'seven dollars are saved that would have been spent on extinguishing' is confusing,...never seen before. In this structure, 'That' relative clause (that would have been spent on extinguishing) is preceed by an independent clause (seven dollars are saved) ? Can someone explain ?
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Re: New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show [#permalink] New post 09 Nov 2012, 06:15
Expert's post
Let’s decode the structural jumble of the sentence by patiently parsing it.

New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, it saves seven dollars that would not be spent on having to extinguish big fires.

New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show ---- This is the main clause

That –the subordinate conjunction introducing the 1st sub-ordinate clause.

for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel; this in fact
is the subject of sub- clause with its essential modifiers starting with the past participle -----spent ---

‘It’ saves seven dollars; saves is in fact the verb of the subordinate clause. But even before this verb can take its right royal role, there is an intervening pronoun ‘it’, which is redundant and corrupts the structure of the entire sentence.

that would not be spent on having to extinguish big fires. This is another sub- clause modifying the object ' the seven dollars'. In fact, the object ‘seven dollars’ turns as the subject of this modifying clause.

(A) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, it saves seven dollars that would not be spent on having to extinguish ------- We can simply reject A on grounds of the intruding and redundant pronoun ‘it’. Meaning of the modifier clause is not clear as to how one can save something that he might have be spending at all. .

(B) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, seven dollars are saved that would have been spent on extinguishing --- This choice is fitting into the grove smugly. The subject matches its verb in the subordinate clause with perfect //ism and the meaning of the modifying clause is simple and straight. The best choice

(C) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel saves seven dollars on not having to extinguish – that for every dollar saves seven dollars does not make much meaning. ---- For every dollar spent --- should be followed by a passive voice structure such as ---seven dollars are saved. ---

(D) for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, that it saves seven dollars on not having to extinguish --- a reported fact such as in this case, should be necessarily introduced by a connector such as ‘that’ ; secondly it is weird to think that you save something you would be spending.

(E) for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, that seven dollars are saved that would not have been spent on extinguishing – same problems as in D
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Re: New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show [#permalink] New post 14 Jan 2013, 16:41
daagh wrote:
(D) for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, that it saves seven dollars on not having to extinguish --- a reported fact such as in this case, should be necessarily introduced by a connector such as ‘that’ ; secondly it is weird to think that you save something you would be spending.



Daagh,

You have provided a good explanation. Can you please clarify what did you mean by - it is weird to think that you save something you would be spending .I couln not understand this part clearly.
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Re: New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show [#permalink] New post 14 Jan 2013, 20:31
1.

pronoun ambiguity can be tolerant in the parallel structure. for example

the data show many opportunities because they are studied carefully

"they" can refer to "data" because they are parallel. this case can be tolerent

in A, "it" ambiguity is not acceptable.

2

the phrase " that would not be spent" is not logic. This is serious porblem in A.

is my thinking correct?
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Re: New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show [#permalink] New post 16 Apr 2013, 15:32
wininblue wrote:
New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, it saves seven dollars that would not be spent on having to extinguish big fires.

(A) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, it saves seven dollars that would not be spent on having to extinguish
(B) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, seven dollars are saved that would have been spent on extinguishing
(C) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel saves seven dollars on not having to extinguish
(D) for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, that it saves seven dollars on not having to extinguish
(E) for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management
personnel, that seven dollars are saved that would not have been spent on extinguishing

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Guys I need some clarity with respect to OG explanation to this question.

For option D, the explanation says- That introduces a subordinate rather than main clause, making a sentence fragment. Can someone please explain this. I know we must not use ",that".
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Re: New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show [#permalink] New post 27 Apr 2013, 02:28
I have another question on the pronoun it. At first I felt the pronoun "it" is being used as a placeholder it. Is there a way to identify whether a pronoun it is being used as a placeholder or not. I know that it is used to postpone infinitive and that as subject and object.
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Re: New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show [#permalink] New post 27 Apr 2013, 02:39

Guys I need some clarity with respect to OG explanation to this question.

For option D, the explanation says- That introduces a subordinate rather than main clause, making a sentence fragment. Can someone please explain this. I know we must not use ",that".

HI David,

I agree, the explanation is a little confusing.

What is basically means is that the word 'that' introduces a part of the sentence that explains or clarifies the main part of the sentence (the word 'because' also tends to introduce a subordinate phrase).

In this instance this is incorrect, the final part of the sentence is still part of the main sentence. So you take away the 'that' and it stays as part of the main sentence...

Does that help?

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Re: New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show [#permalink] New post 27 Apr 2013, 08:41
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@soaringalone

Quote:
Daagh,

You have provided a good explanation. Can you please clarify what did you mean by - it is weird to think that you save something you would be spending .I could not understand this part clearly.


Soaringalone: Good catch; I am sorry for the unintended typo; it should be – it is weird to think that you save something you would not be spending – I have missed the all important not – Sorry for the belatedness( though better late than never) and thanks for correcting
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Re: New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show [#permalink] New post 28 Jun 2013, 22:22
wininblue wrote:
New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, it saves seven dollars that would not be spent on having to extinguish big fires.

(A) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, it saves seven dollars that would not be spent on having to extinguish
(B) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, seven dollars are saved that would have been spent on extinguishing
(C) that for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel saves seven dollars on not having to extinguish
(D) for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management personnel, that it saves seven dollars on not having to extinguish
(E) for every dollar spent on controlled small-scale burning, forest thinning, and the training of fire-management
personnel, that seven dollars are saved that would not have been spent on extinguishing

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==
Hi ,
i have a doubt regarding the sub-verb agreement in the non underlined portion.
New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show
as per my thinking SUBJECT :NEW DATA(SINGULAR)..............VERB: SHOW(PLURAL)===>How is this working a plural verb with a singular subject?
please correct where i am wrong?

thanks
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Re: New data from United States Forest Service ecologists show   [#permalink] 28 Jun 2013, 22:22
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