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Oxbridge 2010 Applicants

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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 02 Jun 2010, 07:06
f4d wrote:
Hi I am an admit for Round 3 and have also been admitted at INSEAD, I just wondered whether you ended up choosing Oxford over INSEAD and what your reasons are for doing so?


Dr. Satisfaction did just that, here are his reasons: oxbridge-2010-applicants-80925-140.html#p657349
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 02 Jun 2010, 07:40
xoxorama wrote:
I hate having gone through the whole application process just to change my mind, but I'm really concerned by the fact that they have not posted a 2009 career report. Their 2008 report tells us nothing about how current graduates are doing in this economy. Full tuition seems like a big chunk of money to spend just to end up going back to your old job, if it's still there by the time you graduate.


:-) Same old debate ... obviously SBS hadn't a competitive graduate employment stats even in 2008 and probably in 2009 was worse. Rumours are that 2010 is slightly better.

If the main factors of concern are the tuition fee and employment stats, you'd better look for Cranfield SOM cranfield-som-72118.html. They among the best in the world at % employment @ 3 months - the Careers Service team does a great job!, the tuition fee is lower than SBS and if you have a competitive profile, you might be able to obtain scholarship (as I did).

But if we compare the tuition fee & living expenses of Oxford with LBS, INSEAD, Cambridge or IMD (maybe the worst case!), Oxford is the least expensive. And I think no BS can guarantee a certain job, considering the actual times, but there are a combination of factors: one's experience and connections, career/location switch (or not) plans, career service commitment and industry connections, part of them depending on one's profile, not on school.

(e.g. I was very surprised that a newly graduated INSEAD accepted an offer at my company as a simple analyst!)
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 02 Jun 2010, 08:07
a11c99 wrote:
xoxorama wrote:
I hate having gone through the whole application process just to change my mind, but I'm really concerned by the fact that they have not posted a 2009 career report. Their 2008 report tells us nothing about how current graduates are doing in this economy. Full tuition seems like a big chunk of money to spend just to end up going back to your old job, if it's still there by the time you graduate.


:-) Same old debate ... obviously SBS hadn't a competitive graduate employment stats even in 2008 and probably in 2009 was worse. Rumours are that 2010 is slightly better.

If the main factors of concern are the tuition fee and employment stats, you'd better look for Cranfield SOM cranfield-som-72118.html. They among the best in the world at % employment @ 3 months - the Careers Service team does a great job!, the tuition fee is lower than SBS and if you have a competitive profile, you might be able to obtain scholarship (as I did).

But if we compare the tuition fee & living expenses of Oxford with LBS, INSEAD, Cambridge or IMD (maybe the worst case!), Oxford is the least expensive. And I think no BS can guarantee a certain job, considering the actual times, but there are a combination of factors: one's experience and connections, career/location switch (or not) plans, career service commitment and industry connections, part of them depending on one's profile, not on school.

(e.g. I was very surprised that a newly graduated INSEAD accepted an offer at my company as a simple analyst!)


I'm not talking about the absolute %, I'm more concerned by what companies have been recruiting and where grads have ended up (I don't plan on working in the UK) At least the other schools have not attempted to conceal their data. Oxford may me marginally less expensive but the bottomline is can it get you a job? Not having any information makes it a risky investment.
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 02 Jun 2010, 08:58
I don't think you should stare too much on recent recruitment results, as they are more of an irregularity. There has been no discussion on a structural change in business schools, their ranking, or payoff, due to the economic setbacks. Therefore, you should be looking at long-term stats. If you weigh your decision only on how much money you have to spend and what the employment reports of a certain b-school have been during the past two years, you are clearly doubting your plans for an MBA in general, not just this one b-school. Like someone else already stated here, you cannot hope the MBA will be your ticket to a good job. If you choose to go to b-school, the good things should outweigh high costs and a currently abnormal job market.
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 02 Jun 2010, 09:19
xoxorama wrote:
I'm not talking about the absolute %, I'm more concerned by what companies have been recruiting and where grads have ended up (I don't plan on working in the UK) At least the other schools have not attempted to conceal their data. Oxford may me marginally less expensive but the bottomline is can it get you a job? Not having any information makes it a risky investment.


From my computations, LBS total costs are about 50% higher, IMD about 40% and INSEAD about 20% higher than SBS's - for me, as I will have to get a personal loan to finance my tuition, even GBP 10,000 more means that's not marginal.
I was worried about employments data too, but then I realised that Oxford brand is as good as LBS, INSEAD or Cambridge to open a door (maybe in some cases better). What will happen after the door is opened and I walk in, I think depend only on my abilities. :)
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 02 Jun 2010, 11:24
annae wrote:
I don't think you should stare too much on recent recruitment results, as they are more of an irregularity. There has been no discussion on a structural change in business schools, their ranking, or payoff, due to the economic setbacks. Therefore, you should be looking at long-term stats. If you weigh your decision only on how much money you have to spend and what the employment reports of a certain b-school have been during the past two years, you are clearly doubting your plans for an MBA in general, not just this one b-school. Like someone else already stated here, you cannot hope the MBA will be your ticket to a good job. If you choose to go to b-school, the good things should outweigh high costs and a currently abnormal job market.


Certainly the economy is unusually bad at the moment but we also have little indication than things will get significantly better within the next year or so. It's not that I am completely risk-averse but I do think there's something to be said for being a careful consumer on an expensive item. Has anyone made a plan of how many years it will take to break even on their investment? and under what assumptions? thanks..
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 02 Jun 2010, 11:56
xoxorama wrote:
Certainly the economy is unusually bad at the moment but we also have little indication than things will get significantly better within the next year or so. It's not that I am completely risk-averse but I do think there's something to be said for being a careful consumer on an expensive item. Has anyone made a plan of how many years it will take to break even on their investment? and under what assumptions? thanks..

True, the economy will most likely be far from excellent shape a year from now, but the MBA is a long-term investment, at least for me. I don't need it just to get one specific job, but to change my career outlooks. I guess the way we look at the MBA varies from person to person.

Regarding your question about break-even, of course I have. I applied for a student loan and naturally I had to calculate my pay-back time. Even if I were to begin far from an ideal salary position, I would consider the pay-back time and the immaterial profit of an MBA a risk worth taking. But again, this a personal matter and you need to make your choice. Everybody worries and most get cold feet - there's even a currently active thread about it somewhere on this forum. :)
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 02 Jun 2010, 12:50
I agree that 2009 employment stats shouldn’t make or break a decision. Presumably, the MBA is a long term investment, and as anne says, there’s no reason to think Oxford’s position relative to any other school has fundamentally changed as a result of the downturn.

That said, I think they should publish the statistics anyway. If 2009 placements were truly shocking then it’s a little dishonest to direct 2010 applicants towards 2008 as an indication of what can be expected. Short term career prospects aren’t everything but it’s still an important issue. Despite being a long term investment, your job immediately post-MBA could have a significant impact on long term trajectory. It’s not unreasonable to want recent data when looking at a £50k investment. Particularly when the school itself is keen to highlight the potential for applicants to land top jobs in banking and consultancy.
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 02 Jun 2010, 13:35
planettelex wrote:
I agree that 2009 employment stats shouldn’t make or break a decision. Presumably, the MBA is a long term investment, and as anne says, there’s no reason to think Oxford’s position relative to any other school has fundamentally changed as a result of the downturn.

That said, I think they should publish the statistics anyway. If 2009 placements were truly shocking then it’s a little dishonest to direct 2010 applicants towards 2008 as an indication of what can be expected. Short term career prospects aren’t everything but it’s still an important issue. Despite being a long term investment, your job immediately post-MBA could have a significant impact on long term trajectory. It’s not unreasonable to want recent data when looking at a £50k investment. Particularly when the school itself is keen to highlight the potential for applicants to land top jobs in banking and consultancy.


:) You really made me curious on this. So, I made a research on the top 10 European MBA (FT ranking 2010) for the latest career statistics published at the moment: LBS - 2009, INSEAD - 2008, IE - 2008, IESE - 2008, IMD - 2008, SBS - 2008, HEC Paris - 2008, ESADE - 2009, Cambridge - 2009, Cranfield - 2008. (Info only from schools main web-pages, if you have other updated info, please add).
Thus, out of 10, only 3 schools have already published results for 2009.
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 02 Jun 2010, 14:37
a11c99 wrote:
planettelex wrote:
:) You really made me curious on this. So, I made a research on the top 10 European MBA (FT ranking 2010) for the latest career statistics published at the moment: LBS - 2009, INSEAD - 2008, IE - 2008, IESE - 2008, IMD - 2008, SBS - 2008, HEC Paris - 2008, ESADE - 2009, Cambridge - 2009, Cranfield - 2008. (Info only from schools main web-pages, if you have other updated info, please add).
Thus, out of 10, only 3 schools have already published results for 2009.
That's interesting a11c99. Hadn't looked at anything outside the UK so didn't know that Oxford isn't atypical in Europe.

My guess is that one year schools in Europe keep a close eye on their competitors. If one school knows its placements are significantly below par, there's no incentive to publish numbers if others aren’t doing likewise. Nobody is in any rush, as no individual has much to gain. Makes sense from a marketing perspective, but doesn’t help a potential applicant wondering whether to apply in 2010 or to wait a year or two when prospects may be slightly better.
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 02 Jun 2010, 22:37
2009 results for JBS show 90% employment 3 months after graduation. 38% found a job through career services. 61% managed to switch industry sector, which to me seems a good number during rough times. Average base salary around $92 000.
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 02 Jun 2010, 23:44
planettelex wrote:
a potential applicant wondering whether to apply in 2010 or to wait a year or two when prospects may be slightly better.


I can see how this is a tough call for those who have the choice to make. In my case, I am aging out of the MBA demographic so it was either go this year or perhaps come back for an EMBA in 3-4 years. If you're still in your 20s I guess you have more options. So you either have to go by your short-term economic forecast, or just do what those of us who have no choice do and take a longer term view that eventually it will be worth it.

Personally, whether the MBA pays for itself in 3 years or 10 years, the point is it will pay for itself--although obviously I'd prefer the former. But the b-school experience in itself has value, as does the Oxford experience in particular in my book. But everyone's situation is different.
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 03 Jun 2010, 00:13
planettelex wrote:
That's interesting a11c99. Hadn't looked at anything outside the UK so didn't know that Oxford isn't atypical in Europe.
My guess is that one year schools in Europe keep a close eye on their competitors. If one school knows its placements are significantly below par, there's no incentive to publish numbers if others aren’t doing likewise. Nobody is in any rush, as no individual has much to gain. Makes sense from a marketing perspective, but doesn’t help a potential applicant wondering whether to apply in 2010 or to wait a year or two when prospects may be slightly better.


I think you are right in general - if the times are uncertain, it's better to wait and maintain an acceptable job instead of pursuing an MBA in an unsure direction. In particular cases though, there no option to wait (e.g. if one's on the older side - as in my case or marlow4's - or unemployed, or want to join a significant other abroad, or other personal factors).

However, my feeling is that the economy is rebounding: in the Q1 of 2010 consumption and production increased in Asia, US and Latin America and slightly in parts of Europe (UK, Germany). If the risk of double dip recession will be overcome this year and the growth trend will continue in 2010, I think the autumn of the next year will be a rather good moment to graduate ...
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 03 Jun 2010, 04:49
marlow4 wrote:
planettelex wrote:
a potential applicant wondering whether to apply in 2010 or to wait a year or two when prospects may be slightly better.

Personally, whether the MBA pays for itself in 3 years or 10 years, the point is it will pay for itself--although obviously I'd prefer the former. But the b-school experience in itself has value, as does the Oxford experience in particular in my book. But everyone's situation is different.



I am sure the Oxford MBA would be a fun experience and a good networking opportunity, but I'm not sure I would want to limit my freedom for the next 10 years in order to pay for it! I already have one fancy degree and I'm not really sure it was such a great investment.
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 03 Jun 2010, 05:09
xoxorama wrote:
I am sure the Oxford MBA would be a fun experience and a good networking opportunity, but I'm not sure I would want to limit my freedom for the next 10 years in order to pay for it! I already have one fancy degree and I'm not really sure it was such a great investment.


You lost me here ... Any MBA is obviously an investment which will pay off in a certain period (I think that in 2-3 years I will repay my loan, rather than in 10 years). Would you go to an MBA only if you get a full scholarship? Or only want to got into that fancy MBA which could get you a multi million pay job, to repay the MBA costs in 1 month?

As annae mentioned, a top MBA should be regarded as a long term opportunity and the benefits are much more than simple financial benefits, rather a life changing experience ... a lot a MBA students get into an MBA only to realise that their post-MBA objectives change during the MBA, along with with their overall view about life ...
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 03 Jun 2010, 05:43
xoxorama wrote:
I am sure the Oxford MBA would be a fun experience and a good networking opportunity, but I'm not sure I would want to limit my freedom for the next 10 years in order to pay for it! I already have one fancy degree and I'm not really sure it was such a great investment.

I will also have a fancy PhD degree by the time I begin with my MBA, but I've seen it as a career sofar (I work as a research scientist). Now is the time to switch careers, and to gain advantage, I go for another fancy degree, as well as a summer internship with hopefully a few months extension into the fall. I hope this combination will give me both the education and a little taste of experience I need for my future job.

Regarding the 10 years return of investment, IMHO this is a thought most of us applicants have considered very carefully while applying. Perhaps it only dawned on you after being accepted, and in this case you have two choices: if your career aspirations don't allow such an economical setback, don't go for the MBA. If they do, swallow once and hard and take the leap. As a11c99 said, you might find yourself become a very different person during that one year.
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 03 Jun 2010, 05:55
new GMAC survey on MBAs graduating in 2010:
http://www.topmba.com/articles/european-mba-recruitment-bouncing-back-surveys-show

Quote:
According to the GMAC survey, the percentage of employers in the EU planning to hire new MBAs is up in 2010 compared with 2009. 45% of respondents to the GMAC Corporate Recruiters Survey (2,367 employers representing 1,960 companies in 57 countries) whose firms are based in the EU said they planned to hire new MBA graduates in 2010. This reverses a sharp drop in 2009, when the comparable figure fell to 36% from 44% the year before.

- The top industries in terms of predicted job opportunities for new MBA graduates in 2010 are consulting and health care

- Worldwide, positions in marketing and sales are likely to be most plentiful, followed by finance-related slots in areas other than investment banking.

- Employers in the EU are most likely to recruit recent MBAs to work in business development roles, according to the survey.
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 03 Jun 2010, 10:36
annae wrote:

Regarding the 10 years return of investment, IMHO this is a thought most of us applicants have considered very carefully while applying. Perhaps it only dawned on you after being accepted, and in this case you have two choices: if your career aspirations don't allow such an economical setback, don't go for the MBA. If they do, swallow once and hard and take the leap. As a11c99 said, you might find yourself become a very different person during that one year.


I certainly agree that it comes down to either going for it or passing up the opportunity. I think this forum is a useful place to get different perspectives and come to a decision, I apologize in advance for playing devils advocate.

Personally, it makes me very worried when people say one of the reasons theyre willing to pay the astronomic tuition is because they're expecting a "life changing experience". I have already taken classes at another top business school and interacted with people who went through the same MBA program from start to finish and I don't think any of them would describe the experience as life changing. I even would venture that a fair number of them were not satisfied with their investment due (at least in the short term) to the current difficulty in finding jobs. I am not trying to discount the possible benefits of an MBA, but one must face the very real possibility that we could find ourselves unemployed and in debt after this degree. I don't want to get an MBA because its a "life changing experience", I really just want to learn useful stuff and get a job out of it.
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 03 Jun 2010, 12:05
xoxorama wrote:
I don't want to get an MBA because its a "life changing experience", I really just want to learn useful stuff and get a job out of it.

Out of one comes the other. :wink: You should read Ahead of the curve: Two years at Harvard Business School, by Philip Delves Broughton. It was written in the high fly of 2006 and in a very sceptical, questioning tone. You might like it, but it might not make your decision any easier. :)
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Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants [#permalink] New post 04 Jun 2010, 13:24
xoxorama wrote:
Personally, it makes me very worried when people say one of the reasons theyre willing to pay the astronomic tuition is because they're expecting a "life changing experience". I have already taken classes at another top business school and interacted with people who went through the same MBA program from start to finish and I don't think any of them would describe the experience as life changing.


In my admission interview for LBS, the high-class private equity alumus stated that he considers that 30% of his MBA benefits represented the knowledge, 30% the networking opportunities with alumni and fellow colleagues and the rest ... daily interactions with another 300 brilliant minds with different ideas and visions of world. These interactions were for him a real "life change experience".

xoxorama wrote:
I am not trying to discount the possible benefits of an MBA, but one must face the very real possibility that we could find ourselves unemployed and in debt after this degree. I don't want to get an MBA because its a "life changing experience", I really just want to learn useful stuff and get a job out of it.


Personally, I prefer to have in my class humble guys that recognise that real-life experience shared by their colleagues worths more that a fancy paper degree and guys mature enough to understand that the "useful stuff" can be found in any advanced paper in finance, operations, strategy and so on - it does not justify to pursue an MBA, it's enough to learn alone and eventually to pass exams to obtain professional degrees.
The job perspectives are proportional with one's level of knowledge, skills and working experience, with or without an MBA. The MBA is just the icing on the cake - the chance to enrich with others' experiences in different environments, the networking opportunities to climb on the ladder faster and the brand stamp on the resume that gives more credibility to previous achievements.
Re: Oxbridge 2010 Applicants   [#permalink] 04 Jun 2010, 13:24
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