For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it : The B-School Applications

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

23 Dec 2011, 07:18

A question that is left unasked is why are Chinese and Indian admissions down? At Fuqua, the admissions of Asians in general (Indian, Chinese, Korean, Thai, etc.) are SIGNIFICANTLY down across the board (~50%). On the other hand, the school boosts an increase in Latin American and European admission rate. There has been significant tension in the student body resulting for the change. For one, many of the diversity club’s funding is based on membership. And the corporate partners sponsor based on membership base. This is not only a hit to the membership based but also a hit financially.

I think it’s time someone asked the tough questions. Or leave it to the public to speculate on the reason. This is just a law suit waiting to happen.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

23 Dec 2011, 21:22

Great post. Most schools tend to keep stressing that they are looking to have as diverse a class as possible, and now we're beginning to see it in the numbers. I'm all for having a diverse class. If that means cutting down the no. of Asians admitted from 40% to 20%, so be it.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

24 Dec 2011, 06:41

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How about bring down the number of US students from 67%. Given the number of applicants from Asia vs the number of applicants from US, it can only mean that the quality of US students would probably be not as good as Asian students.

The European schools have done it and can actually boast of a diverse class (country wise), US schools not so much. You can't call a class with 67% US students as internationally diverse. Just my 2 cents.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

24 Dec 2011, 06:57

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crackfire2003 wrote:

How about bring down the number of US students from 67%. Given the number of applicants from Asia vs the number of applicants from US, it can only mean that the quality of US students would probably be not as good as Asian students.

The European schools have done it and can actually boast of a diverse class (country wise), US schools not so much. You can't call a class with 67% US students as internationally diverse. Just my 2 cents.

Your critical reasoning needs a whole lot of work. Quantity does not equate to quality.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

24 Dec 2011, 08:25

The numbers go hand in hand with the feedback I got from Indian students studying at US schools.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

24 Dec 2011, 09:09

crackfire2003 wrote:

The numbers go hand in hand with the feedback I got from Indian students studying at US schools.

Your reasoning gets more faulty every time you post.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

24 Dec 2011, 11:51

crackfire2003 wrote:

How about bring down the number of US students from 67%. Given the number of applicants from Asia vs the number of applicants from US, it can only mean that the quality of US students would probably be not as good as Asian students.

The European schools have done it and can actually boast of a diverse class (country wise), US schools not so much. You can't call a class with 67% US students as internationally diverse. Just my 2 cents.

This post is ridiculous.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

28 Dec 2011, 12:15

https://poetsandquants.com/2011/11/19/in ... rejection/
The Fuqua School of Business - the 3rd hardest program for international applicants to get in. This beats our #6 BW ranking!

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

28 Dec 2011, 13:29

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asimov wrote:

A question that is left unasked is why are Chinese and Indian admissions down? At Fuqua, the admissions of Asians in general (Indian, Chinese, Korean, Thai, etc.) are SIGNIFICANTLY down across the board (~50%). On the other hand, the school boosts an increase in Latin American and European admission rate. There has been significant tension in the student body resulting for the change. For one, many of the diversity club’s funding is based on membership. And the corporate partners sponsor based on membership base. This is not only a hit to the membership based but also a hit financially.

I think it’s time someone asked the tough questions. Or leave it to the public to speculate on the reason. This is just a law suit waiting to happen.

This has been a hot issue for a long time for schools especially in California. Many undergrad schools flat out admitted that they limit the admission pool for Asian students and look more fondly upon not-too-common applicants from European countries and other minority applicants.

It's upsetting for Asian tiger moms and students who worked their ass off to get their stuff to the top academically, and I understand where they come from. However, it makes sense for schools - they have to diversify their student bodies as much as possible. I personally wouldn't want to attend a school with a lack of diversity. Diversity is part of valuable MBA experience and I wouldn't trade it with anything. I wanna be in all-you-can eat buffet with all kind of meals from all over the world with $80000 receipt.

Also, if we look at the population of two countries - China and India, It really makes sense. Together they have about 4 billion people. More people = more candidates = more competitions. Then there's a language barrier, visa issue, employment etc etc.....schools don't want to deal with problems. They want students to get jobs and be successful. It also has to do with school's employment placement and rate. So many things come into play.

It might be unfair for Chinese/Indian applicants. But if they truly want their MBA and know exactly why they want them, and know how to articulate that on essays, they'll overcome that hurdle. Once the overcome that, they will be extremely valuable MBA candidates. No excuses necessary.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

28 Dec 2011, 16:46

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goodbyeboy wrote:

This has been a hot issue for a long time for schools especially in California. Many undergrad schools flat out admitted that they limit the admission pool for Asian students and look more fondly upon not-too-common applicants from European countries and other minority applicants.

It's upsetting for Asian tiger moms and students who worked their ass off to get their stuff to the top academically, and I understand where they come from. However, it makes sense for schools - they have to diversify their student bodies as much as possible. I personally wouldn't want to attend a school with a lack of diversity. Diversity is part of valuable MBA experience and I wouldn't trade it with anything. I wanna be in all-you-can eat buffet with all kind of meals from all over the world with $80000 receipt.

Also, if we look at the population of two countries - China and India, It really makes sense. Together they have about 4 billion people. More people = more candidates = more competitions. Then there's a language barrier, visa issue, employment etc etc.....schools don't want to deal with problems. They want students to get jobs and be successful. It also has to do with school's employment placement and rate. So many things come into play.

It might be unfair for Chinese/Indian applicants. But if they truly want their MBA and know exactly why they want them, and know how to articulate that on essays, they'll overcome that hurdle. Once the overcome that, they will be extremely valuable MBA candidates. No excuses necessary.

I think diversity is awesome. However, what exactly is diversity? Is diversity defined by the color of someone’s skin? Or is it defined by the new knowledge or experiences that one bring to the table? Are people with similar Western upbringing from different countries bringing true diversity in the increasingly global business environment? I, having the Western culture, appreciate the refreshing perspectives my Asian classmates bring forth. If business school truly cared about diversity, they would try to integrate the various groups more. Instead, if you walk into a business school, you will see the Europeans hanging out with Europeans, the Blonds hanging out with Blonds, etc.

The fact is Asians (including Indians) are under-represented by most measures - % total world population, % GDP, etc. The URM argument simply doesn’t hold, because of the URM are from populations so small, that statistically, there shouldn’t be that many to begin with. It comes down to flat discrimination. Someone has to stand up and fight for the injustice. If MLK or Gandhi, just sat back and accepted the status quo, making excuses for why things are the way it is, nothing would have changed.

Furthermore, the Asian countries are on the rise, where as some of the other regions are stagnant. In business school, we are taught to anticipate and adapt to change. However, they don’t seem to put that into practice. It would make senses to educate the future business leaders of the world. This is an opportunity that few schools capitalize on for the short term fear of drop in rankings due to lower employment stats. It also provides opportunity for schools like ISB and CEIBS to rise, and, potentially, reshape business education as we know it. Disruptive innovation does not come from the entrenched industries, but rather from new sources. I hope these schools will help make the business world better.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

28 Dec 2011, 18:26

asimov wrote:

goodbyeboy wrote:

This has been a hot issue for a long time for schools especially in California. Many undergrad schools flat out admitted that they limit the admission pool for Asian students and look more fondly upon not-too-common applicants from European countries and other minority applicants.

It's upsetting for Asian tiger moms and students who worked their ass off to get their stuff to the top academically, and I understand where they come from. However, it makes sense for schools - they have to diversify their student bodies as much as possible. I personally wouldn't want to attend a school with a lack of diversity. Diversity is part of valuable MBA experience and I wouldn't trade it with anything. I wanna be in all-you-can eat buffet with all kind of meals from all over the world with $80000 receipt.

Also, if we look at the population of two countries - China and India, It really makes sense. Together they have about 4 billion people. More people = more candidates = more competitions. Then there's a language barrier, visa issue, employment etc etc.....schools don't want to deal with problems. They want students to get jobs and be successful. It also has to do with school's employment placement and rate. So many things come into play.

It might be unfair for Chinese/Indian applicants. But if they truly want their MBA and know exactly why they want them, and know how to articulate that on essays, they'll overcome that hurdle. Once the overcome that, they will be extremely valuable MBA candidates. No excuses necessary.

I think diversity is awesome. However, what exactly is diversity? Is diversity defined by the color of someone’s skin? Or is it defined by the new knowledge or experiences that one bring to the table? Are people with similar Western upbringing from different countries bringing true diversity in the increasingly global business environment? I, having the Western culture, appreciate the refreshing perspectives my Asian classmates bring forth. If business school truly cared about diversity, they would try to integrate the various groups more. Instead, if you walk into a business school, you will see the Europeans hanging out with Europeans, the Blonds hanging out with Blonds, etc.

The fact is Asians (including Indians) are under-represented by most measures - % total world population, % GDP, etc. The URM argument simply doesn’t hold, because of the URM are from populations so small, that statistically, there shouldn’t be that many to begin with. It comes down to flat discrimination. Someone has to stand up and fight for the injustice. If MLK or Gandhi, just sat back and accepted the status quo, making excuses for why things are the way it is, nothing would have changed.

Furthermore, the Asian countries are on the rise, where as some of the other regions are stagnant. In business school, we are taught to anticipate and adapt to change. However, they don’t seem to put that into practice. It would make senses to educate the future business leaders of the world. This is an opportunity that few schools capitalize on for the short term fear of drop in rankings due to lower employment stats. It also provides opportunity for schools like ISB and CEIBS to rise, and, potentially, reshape business education as we know it. Disruptive innovation does not come from the entrenched industries, but rather from new sources. I hope these schools will help make the business world better.

I think you're getting confused with diverse environment vs diverse people. Here's the ultimate truth. Wherever you go, some blondes will only hang with blondes, some asians will only hang with asians, and some blacks will only hang with blacks. That won't change no matter how much school tries to integrate Asians or Indians, or other minorities into play. It's those who go out of their comfort zone to learn and appreciate new cultures that benefit from the diversity.

The truth is that school IS integrating Asians and Indians and others into play as much as possible. The problem is that there are simply so many overqualified (ironically at the same time, under qualified) candidates who fall into extremely similar categories. Asians from top tier undergrad with almost perfect GPA, raised by tiger moms who trained their kids to always be on top when it comes to school. Then there are Indian candidates from IT field, really high GMAT scores etc - you get the picture.

I don't know how much refreshing perspectives you got from how many Asian students. However I don't think it's safe for you to assume that those from such geographical backgrounds will bring the same value to the table as you expect. I can't speak from Indian perspective but I'll speak from Asian perspective. In Asia, literally all students are forced by their tiger moms to study 15 hours a day to excel in school, get good grades, excel in exams, attend good colleges etc. Sure their academic profile may be great in the end, with helps of mandatory community services and forced extra curricular activities. However, they sacrifice bigger things meanwhile - leadership skills, communication skills, people skills, logical and critical thinking, how to stand with their own feet. ALL OF THEM, crucial for successful MBA candidates. I don't care how much more integration you think business schools should bring, but I certainly don't wanna study with students without those values.

As I said, there will always be exceptions, and they're the ones who will survive from that competition and get offers from the schools. Ones who didn't forget what's truly important in the world of business, and ones that can plan and attack well their goals and plans on essays and interviews. It certainly is disadvantage for certain demographics, but is this a flat discrimination? Absolutely not. This has nothing to do with bringing justice to the school. No MLK or Gandhi - NO. You're taking this too far and comparing this to things that are simply incomparable. You have to look at this from an inside perspective and know why this is happening at the first place, and no offense, but I don't think you have enough knowledge or experience with diversity to make such assertions.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

28 Dec 2011, 19:45

The trouble with depending on ISB and CEIBS for providing path breaking education is again (surpirse) diversity or rather their lack of it. Unfortunately those schools cant produce innovators 20 years in the future, until they have a diverse classroom now, which again is a catch 22 because you need early adopters who want an Indian education/ Chinese education to create a diverse classroom now-->diverse alumni--> great future results from that Alumni-->draws diverse applicant pool.

To lure those early adopters of ISB and CEIBS from western economies, you need risk takers in the applicant pool who believe in the future superiority of Indian/ Chinese markets over their western counterparts. But then again, MBA applicants as a community are really not known for "hedging the farm" on breathtaking risks without some insurance( MBA, for example, is an insurance of one's career).

As a result, I can safely proclaim that ISB/CEIBS will not bring about the change in the economies of India/China but it is the other way around. For these schools to become popular/to produce /draw exceptional achievers in the next half century (ala HBS/ Stanford), the domestic economy needs to outperform the developed economies.

As much as we would all like to refute the notion of diversity as unfair, Diversity is essential for innovation. If you read Clayton Christensen's Innovator's DNA, that is all the book talks about. It is in the melange of diverse opinions,culturally and professionally, that new ideas and path breaking companies are born. ( For your reference check this unnatural mix of industries in this person's background that led to the creation of an innovative company, by an ex-colleague of mine and an HBS alum, called Shipserv.com)

As for the class composition, I really do believe that it does not go by the population. An indian applicant working in IT is a cheap commodity but a norwegian working in IT is a rare one. On the other hand, an Indian merchant marine officer is a diamond in the rough, whereas a Norwegian in the maritime sector- well that's dime a dozen. Think about it.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

28 Dec 2011, 20:06

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goodbyeboy wrote:

I don't know how much refreshing perspectives you got from how many Asian students. However I don't think it's safe for you to assume that those from such geographical backgrounds will bring the same value to the table as you expect. I can't speak from Indian perspective but I'll speak from Asian perspective. In Asia, literally all students are forced by their tiger moms to study 15 hours a day to excel in school, get good grades, excel in exams, attend good colleges etc. Sure their academic profile may be great in the end, with helps of mandatory community services and forced extra curricular activities. However, they sacrifice bigger things meanwhile - leadership skills, communication skills, people skills, logical and critical thinking, how to stand with their own feet. ALL OF THEM, crucial for successful MBA candidates. I don't care how much more integration you think business schools should bring, but I certainly don't wanna study with students without those values.

This is a pretty racist statement. You are basically saying that Asians are only good at getting higher scores, but lack other skills. This is simply not a true assertion. If Asians lack inherent drive and creativity, why are the Asian economies doing so well? The perception about other people is a dangerous one to have. Because one day they will eat your lunch.

Furthermore, I do believe b-school should accept the best holistic candidate. However, when there is an arbitrary definition of “diversity”, and you slot the classes this way, it inherently causes inequity. For example, two candidates with equal softer skills and quant skills, one is URM, one isn’t, which one do you think would get the slot? Now let’s presume, two candidates with equal softer skills, the URM has lower stats, but the non-URM slots has been filled. Who do you think would get the admit? Is this fair and equitable? What happen if the URM was brought up in an affluent family? The non-URM had to fight their way through poor education opportunity, and difficulty in getting recommenders who can write in English. Did the URM add diversity to the mix?

Any time when there is a pre-determined class mix, you lose the argument accepting the best candidate.

goodbyeboy wrote:

You're taking this too far and comparing this to things that are simply incomparable. You have to look at this from an inside perspective and know why this is happening at the first place, and no offense, but I don't think you have enough knowledge or experience with diversity to make such assertions.

Attack the argument not the person, especially, when you know nothing about the poster.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

28 Dec 2011, 20:16

I see a lot of discussion about stats, but is it really a fair assumption that higher stats means better/more qualified candidate. Is there really a material difference between a 700 and a 730 or a 3.3 and a 3.5 (from different schools). From what I have heard from admissions committees the only qualification those stats point to is, "Can this candidate do the work?" Once evidence of that is shown, higher stats are just gravy, not necessarily an indication of being more qualified.
In the search for diversity (however it's being defined) schools don't appear to be sacrificing the quality of their class. Whether White American, European, Indian, Nigerian, or whatever students at the top schools are accomplishing what they came to school to do: finding employment in well paying jobs within 3 months of graduation. That is the ultimate determinant of quality.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

28 Dec 2011, 20:22

Anasthaesium wrote:

The trouble with depending on ISB and CEIBS for providing path breaking education is again (surpirse) diversity or rather their lack of it. Unfortunately those schools cant produce innovators 20 years in the future, until they have a diverse classroom now, which again is a catch 22 because you need early adopters who want an Indian education/ Chinese education to create a diverse classroom now-->diverse alumni--> great future results from that Alumni-->draws diverse applicant pool.

To lure those early adopters of ISB and CEIBS from western economies, you need risk takers in the applicant pool who believe in the future superiority of Indian/ Chinese markets over their western counterparts. But then again, MBA applicants as a community are really not known for "hedging the farm" on breathtaking risks without some insurance( MBA, for example, is an insurance of one's career).

Completely agree. My point is that they are change agents. They bring different perspectives to management to the field. If you look at the technology field, when the disruptive technology first comes out, it is imperfect, but it gets better as time progresses. I believe ISB/CEIBS are a long term plays. As India and China’s economy improves, the local talents will have less of an incentive to leave, and the foreign talents will have more of an incentive to go. Harvard wasn’t built in one day. I’m sure people felt the same way about Harvard in the 1600s, when there’s Oxford and Cambridge to compete with.

cheetarah1980 wrote:

Whether White American, European, Indian, Nigerian, or whatever students at the top schools are accomplishing what they came to school to do: finding employment in well paying jobs within 3 months of graduation. That is the ultimate determinant of quality.

This is the most insightful comment yet. I feel the true reason for a “diverse” class, is because of many of the Asian students want to stay in the US, but are having trouble finding employment sponsors. Whereas, many of the European students wouldn’t mind going back to home country. Same can be said for URM, because most companies have an URM quota to fill. I just think the “diversity” argument used by AdCom is BS.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

28 Dec 2011, 20:40

asimov wrote:

Anasthaesium wrote:

The trouble with depending on ISB and CEIBS for providing path breaking education is again (surpirse) diversity or rather their lack of it. Unfortunately those schools cant produce innovators 20 years in the future, until they have a diverse classroom now, which again is a catch 22 because you need early adopters who want an Indian education/ Chinese education to create a diverse classroom now-->diverse alumni--> great future results from that Alumni-->draws diverse applicant pool.

To lure those early adopters of ISB and CEIBS from western economies, you need risk takers in the applicant pool who believe in the future superiority of Indian/ Chinese markets over their western counterparts. But then again, MBA applicants as a community are really not known for "hedging the farm" on breathtaking risks without some insurance( MBA, for example, is an insurance of one's career).

Completely agree. My point is that they are change agents. They bring different perspectives to management to the field. If you look at the technology field, when the disruptive technology first comes out, it is imperfect, but it gets better as time progresses. I believe ISB/CEIBS are a long term plays. As India and China’s economy improves, the local talents will have less of an incentive to leave, and the foreign talents will have more of an incentive to go. Harvard wasn’t built in one day. I’m sure people felt the same way about Harvard in the 1600s, when there’s Oxford and Cambridge to compete with.

cheetarah1980 wrote:

Whether White American, European, Indian, Nigerian, or whatever students at the top schools are accomplishing what they came to school to do: finding employment in well paying jobs within 3 months of graduation. That is the ultimate determinant of quality.

This is the most insightful comment yet. I feel the true reason for a “diverse” class, is because of many of the Asian students want to stay in the US, but are having trouble finding employment sponsors. Whereas, many of the European students wouldn’t mind going back to home country. Same can be said for URM, because most companies have an URM quota to fill. I just think the “diversity” argument used by AdCom is BS.

You may not be intending your words to come across this way, but you seem to be insinuating that the reason URMs are getting places in top schools and jobs is to fill quotas and not based off their qualifications. Yes, schools and businesses have diversity targets that they want to hit. But I will tell you that schools and companies are not picking up any Black, Latino, or Native American candidate that crosses their path just to hit these numbers. In fact, many companies and schools STRUGGLE to come close to their targets no matter how much recruiting they do amongst these groups. Why? Because if a candidate cannot meet a certain threshold then it doesn't matter what their ethnicity/race is, they're not getting the offer. As a URM it's disheartening to see people reduce our places in schools and jobs as a "filled quota."
Even if this was not your intention, please know that it comes across in the words you choose.

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

28 Dec 2011, 21:02

cheetarah1980 wrote:

You may not be intending your words to come across this way, but you seem to be insinuating that the reason URMs are getting places in top schools and jobs is to fill quotas and not based off their qualifications. Yes, schools and businesses have diversity targets that they want to hit. But I will tell you that schools and companies are not picking up any Black, Latino, or Native American candidate that crosses their path just to hit these numbers. In fact, many companies and schools STRUGGLE to come close to their targets no matter how much recruiting they do amongst these groups. Why? Because if a candidate cannot meet a certain threshold then it doesn't matter what their ethnicity/race is, they're not getting the offer. As a URM it's disheartening to see people reduce our places in schools and jobs as a "filled quota."
Even if this was not your intention, please know that it comes across in the words you choose.

I'm not saying there's no bar. However, from your statements, it appears the slot is the URM's to lose, whereas, it is a slot someone else have to earn. That's a drastically different position. How is that equitable?

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Re: For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it [#permalink]

28 Dec 2011, 21:02