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Re: Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor [#permalink]
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alimad wrote:
Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor Frances Perkins sought
recognition by the press, and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust
to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social
security that were in large measure what they had been responsible for.


A. to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief,
and social security that were in large measure what they had been responsible for
B. to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief,
and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible
C. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief,
and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible
D. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief,
and social security that were in large measure what they were responsible for
E. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief,
and social security which were largely their responsibility

Ok, my question is when to use the 'gerund' form, what rules to follow?


B.

"taking" vs. to take. to take is needed b/c the first lady and the secretary allowed others to take, not taking.

Elim CDE.

A: they has no clear referent. could be the others or the two women.

B: fixes A's problem with referents.
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Re: Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor [#permalink]
i read somewhere that comma is required before which ...thus discarded choice B ...
pls explain !!
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Re: Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor [#permalink]
hibloom wrote:

However, without a comma before which, you cannot delete the relative clause because in this case the relative clause is required.


[/quote]

pronoun Which is a nonrestrictive pronoun meaning that what follows Which is not necessary to identify the subject i.e. Which must be preceded with a comma. always. at least on GMAT.
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Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink]
Hello friends,

I have a specific question related to modifiers.
Need some help in understanding more about the relative pronoun "THAT" in the below construction.

Neither first lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press,and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of the historic program in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what the two women wereresponsible for.

My question is can that refer to a list? (In this case public employment, relief and social security)??
Is this sort of construction acceptable on the GMAT?


Also when can a comma precede a THAT in a sentence?
example - "Large manufacturing companies such as ferrari, THAT"

Please help..

Thanks,
Chechaxo
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Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink]
chechaxo wrote:
Hello friends,

I have a specific question related to modifiers.
Need some help in understanding more about the relative pronoun "THAT" in the below construction.

Neither first lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press,and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of the historic program in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what the two women wereresponsible for.

My question is can that refer to a list? (In this case public employment, relief and social security)??
Is this sort of construction acceptable on the GMAT?


Also when can a comma precede a THAT in a sentence?
example - "Large manufacturing companies such as ferrari, THAT"

Please help..

Thanks,
Chechaxo



As to your first question, I am curious the answer myself. This is related: click (answer of Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:28 am).

As to your second question: Comma can precede a "that", when the "that" opens a non-essential modifier (NEM). The entire NEM should be flanked by commas, just as an essential modifier (EM) must not be. However, Manhattan SC advises that GMAC will use "that" for essential, and "which" for non-essential modifiers in most cases. Nevertheless, the use of commas in NEM/EM is superior to the choice between "that" and "which", as the latter is disputable.
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Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink]
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chechaxo wrote:
Hello friends,

I have a specific question related to modifiers.
Need some help in understanding more about the relative pronoun "THAT" in the below construction.

Neither first lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press,and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of the historic program in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what the two women wereresponsible for.

My question is can that refer to a list? (In this case public employment, relief and social security)??
Is this sort of construction acceptable on the GMAT?


Also when can a comma precede a THAT in a sentence?
example - "Large manufacturing companies such as ferrari, THAT"

Please help..

Thanks,
Chechaxo


Looking at the question above, the correct answer does not use that: "Neither first lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press,and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible." The phrase "For which" (in place of that) above refers to the historic programs and the prepositional phrase "in public employment, relief and social security" provides additional detail on the historic programs.

About the comma preceding 'that', your example includes a non-essential phrase, which should be set off by commas, before that. It should read - "Large manufacturing companies, such as Ferrari, that..." In that case, they commas are related to the non-essential phrase, not that.

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Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink]
Thanks HumptyDumpty and KyleWiddison,

I am clear about my second question on the use of " Comma + That".
HumptyDumpty, from what i learn from Kyles response the comma structure before the that refers to the NEM.

For example in the sentence - "one will encounter more women wearing pants than wearing skirts, yet it was only two or three generations ago, in 1945, that actress Marlene Dietrich was forced by police to leave Paris for daring to wear

- that modifies generations ago while the "," before the that intends to demarcate the NEM "in 1985".

KyleWiddison, Please correct me if i am wrong.

Kylewiddson, HumptyDumpty,
However i am not still clear on whether "that" can refer to a list.
Please can you clarify with an example?


Thanks,
Chechaxo
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Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink]
Hello again!

During the course of my preparation many a times, I came across the structures -"For Which", "In Which", "From Which"....

My question - Just like "WHICH", do "FOR WHICH", "IN WHICH" and "FROM WHICH" have to modify the NOUN immediately preceding these constructions?

Please, can someone explain with an example?

Thanks in Advance.
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Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink]
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chechaxo wrote:
Thanks HumptyDumpty and KyleWiddison,

I am clear about my second question on the use of " Comma + That".
HumptyDumpty, from what i learn from Kyles response the comma structure before the that refers to the NEM.

For example in the sentence - "one will encounter more women wearing pants than wearing skirts, yet it was only two or three generations ago, in 1945, that actress Marlene Dietrich was forced by police to leave Paris for daring to wear

- that modifies generations ago while the "," before the that intends to demarcate the NEM "in 1985".

KyleWiddison, Please correct me if i am wrong.

Kylewiddson, HumptyDumpty,
However i am not still clear on whether "that" can refer to a list.
Please can you clarify with an example?


Thanks,
Chechaxo


Chechaxo-

You are correct about 'that' modifying 'generations ago' and the commas creating the non-essential modifier.

'That' (when acting as a noun modifier) and 'which' will modify the closest noun, so 'that'/'which' will not modify an entire list (without some extra effort). Here is an example: I went to the store, the restaurant, and the ice cream shop that recently opened. The clause "that recently opened" attaches to the closest noun, which is 'ice cream shop'. We could move the clause around to modify the different elements. I went to the store, the restaurant that recently opened, and the ice cream shop. Here, only the restaurant is modified. If we wanted to modify all three we have to be a bit more creative. I went to the store, the restaurant, and the ice cream shop, all of which were recently opened. [I don't really like that construction at all and wouldn't expect to see it on the GMAT].

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Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink]
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chechaxo wrote:
Hello again!

During the course of my preparation many a times, I came across the structures -"For Which", "In Which", "From Which"....

My question - Just like "WHICH", do "FOR WHICH", "IN WHICH" and "FROM WHICH" have to modify the NOUN immediately preceding these constructions?

Please, can someone explain with an example?

Thanks in Advance.
Chechaxo


Chechaxo-
Yes, it's the same situation with these variations of 'which'. Here are some examples:

The Forbidden City in Beijing, from which the emperors ruled by heavenly mandate...
The Declaration of Independence, in which the American Colonies declare independence from Great Britian...

The 'which' still modifies the preceding noun, there is just the inclusion of a preposition that is necessary for proper meaning. If you said, "the Forbidden City in Beijing, which the emperors ruled by heavenly mandate" the meaning changes from Beijing being the capital city of the emperors to Beijing being the only area under the rule of the emperors.

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Re: Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor [#permalink]
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alimad wrote:
Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press, and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they had been responsible for.

A. to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they had been responsible for

B. to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible

C. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible

D. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they were responsible for

E. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security which were largely their responsibility


This question is based on Idiomatic Usage and Construction.

Certain verbs in English are only followed by an infinitive and certain verbs only by a participle.
For example, the verb ‘enjoy’ is followed only by participles.
E.g.: I enjoy learning languages.
The verb ‘want’ is followed only by infinitives.
E.g.: I want to learn different languages.

The verb ‘allowed’ should be followed by the infinitive ‘to take’ and not the participle form ‘taking’.
The participle ‘taking’ at the beginning of the underlined portion makes it a modifier that seems to describe how the two women ‘allowed’ others. However, this construction leaves the verb ‘allowed’ hanging as it is not clear what the other women allowed others. So, that helps us to eliminate [color=#ff0000]options C, D, and E straightaway.[/color]

In Option A, the past perfect tense ‘had been’ is inappropriate there is no later action in the past mentioned in the sentence.

The antecedent of the pronoun ’they’ is also ambiguous. It is not clear whether the pronoun refers to the ladies or to the historic programs.

The antecedent of the relative pronoun ‘that’ is also unclear. It could be referring to the ‘genesis’ but that causes a subject-verb disagreement because the plural verb ‘were’ after the relative pronoun cannot refer to the singular antecedent ‘genesis’. So, Option A can be eliminated.


The simple past tense ‘were responsible’ is appropriate in Option B.

The placement of the preposition ‘for’ at the beginning of the modifier only helps to make the antecedent of the relative pronoun clear. The placement of the noun “the two women” after the relative pronoun, helps to avoid the error of subject-verb disagreement.

Therefore, B is the most appropriate option.


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Re: Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor [#permalink]
Hello,
Could someone explain the usage of "which" in option B, I understand that "which" can never refer to an entire preceding clause or phrase, Here which seems to be referring to the entire part from "the genesis... to security"
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Re: Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor [#permalink]
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Vivek1707 wrote:
Hello,
Could someone explain the usage of "which" in option B, I understand that "which" can never refer to an entire preceding clause or phrase, Here which seems to be referring to the entire part from "the genesis... to security"


Hi Vivek

In option (B), the relative pronoun is not "which" but "for which". The correct sentence reads:

Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press, and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible.

As is usual, this refers back only to the immediately preceding nouns/noun ideas, ie; to "programs in public employment, relief, and social security" (or, "genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security").

Hope this helps.

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Re: Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor [#permalink]
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Can someone explain why B is correct without the word "for" at the end to say "responsible for"?. Without the "for", I feel like the meaning of the sentence changes to say that the two women were "responsible" people and not meaning that they were "responsible for" the genesis.
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Re: Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor [#permalink]
My understanding is here is allowed.... to. So following this construction we can easily eliminate C,D,E. Now remain A & B.
Here A is incorrect because had been is not an appropriate tense here. So it should be B.

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Re: Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor [#permalink]
Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press, and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust[*]to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they had been responsible for[*]


A. to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they had been responsible for
Here, that - essential modifier - modifies security. In that case were is wrong. If we want to consider that modifies programs , there should be a valid and strong reason . Still there is ambiguity.

B. to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible
No errors. For which refers back to genesis

C d and E can be easily eliminated based on the usage of present participle taking. Here, taking modifies trust . THat mens trust takes credit. As per meaning , others to take credit but not trust.


C. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible

D. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they were responsible for

E. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security which were largely their responsibility

So, our answer choice is B

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Re: Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor [#permalink]
KarishmaB madam I have a couple of doubts in this question -

1. Option B. - to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible

Shouldn't we have past perfect tense because women had been responsible is prior to action women allowed?

2. Option A. - is there any other error apart from SV agreement that is that were?
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Re: Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor [#permalink]
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