Ask Alex @ MBA Apply

You're right, age will be an issue. However, that is completely out of your control; it is what it is.

If you're dead set on applying to HBS and Stanford, just do the best you can on the applications, and make sure you are applying to other schools.

Keep in mind that there are plenty of b-schools out there that will likely get you what you want in terms of recruiting, quality of people, the experience itself, etc. I think too many applicants make way too much out of going to certain schools as if it's somehow night and day.

The reality is, within the top 16 schools the student body, recruiting, quality of education, etc. share way more in common than applicants like to make it out to be. And especially within the top 8, there really is no difference other than to one's ego. The fact is, most b-school folks coming out of these schools all end up in similar places in their careers, and all have very similar experiences within their b-schools. When you get out, there will be HBS alums working for Fuqua alums who will be working for college grads with no MBAs.

I know some of these b-schools give applicants a real hard on, but I would encourage you to also look at other schools if your ego can handle it. Apply to H/S but know that it's not going to make much of a difference in your life compared to going to Columbia, Kellogg, Sloan, etc. or even schools like NYU, Duke, Ross, etc.

Applicants care most about school prestige - almost obsessively so. Current MBA students care less because they are so busy and focused on making most of their experience. Recent grads and recruiters care even less because they are more focused on what's ahead (job). And once you're out of school 6+ years out, no one cares at all - to alums, the MBA has nostalgia but not career value. To your colleagues, partners, etc. by then they only care about what you've done in your career since b-school.

If schools like HBS and Stanford strongly prefer younger candidates, then just accept that -- there are plenty of other schools out there that will likely be a better fit for you anyways.

The hottest girl in the class doesn't always make the best girlfriend.

Alex - I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on my chances.

1) 8 years - 4yrs investment banking at bulge bracket (promoted to Assoc.), 2 years PE, 2 years HF - all on the investment side
2) 700 97% verbal 67% quant (taken once, 4 years ago, my quant score is low but i had As in finance and accounting classes during school, plus I've passed all 3 levels of CFA - hopefully it's really not worth retaking?)
3) Ivy league undergraduate business school. GPA 3.60 Grad. 2001.
4) Local leadership positions with environmental non-profit post college, lots during college
5) focus is really on INSEAD, LSB but welcome any other suggestions
6) post-mba goal is corporate development/strategy at multinational company in western Europe.

My concerns are that I don't have international work exposure, only extensive int'l travel (just got back from 15 months of traveling aboard, which also means that I'm not currently working). And my age, I am currently 32. Also female, asian-american.

Worth applying for September 2012?

How'd you like Wharton?

yeah gave it away too much huh? Wharton was fine. It was a long time ago

Are you sure you need an MBA at this point? That's going to be a tough sell. It's like a college grad trying to apply to high school.

To be honest, INSEAD and LBS care much more than the US schools about international experience, and as such that will also be a handicap for you as well.

I hate to say this, but at this point I don't think an MBA is worth it for you, or you are overestimating its value for you at this point in your career. Given what your career goals are, you will have to find a way to do so without it -- i.e. networking your way to those jobs.

Thanks for the frank response. I definitely vacillate between being excited to get a MBA and wondering if it's worth the money and effort.

Here's the thing.

You graduated from one of the best if not the best undergrad business program in the world.

You've had a pretty damn impressive finance career already - the kind of career that many finance wannabes currently in b-school and the Gordon Gekko wannabes would salivate over.

Money is unlikely an issue. In fact, you probably have substantively more (maybe multiples more) than even most MBA alums at this point who didn't do finance.

All in all, with this profile alone, just about any business professional (headhunter, recruiter, investor, executive, etc) will assume that you're as smart and capable as it gets. You don't do 8 years of finance without a combination of raw talent, hard work and toughness (being able to handle an incredible amount of crap from others).

Not sure what happened, but whether you got let go or you left on your own, in any case I'm guessing you went traveling to just decompress, figure out what you want to do next with your life. As you should. Change can be a great thing, and propel you into an entirely new direction that you never would have expected.

Here's my unsolicited advice.

I get a sense that working in corp dev/strategy in Europe is an option, but not exactly something that comes from the gut. It's most likely something that comes from the head (you intellectually brainstormed something that makes *rational* sense). And then the MBA as well is something that also comes from the head. You know you need to do *something* to make this life/career transition, and the MBA seems to make the most rational sense.

Which is precisely why the MBA makes the least sense. Because I don't think it's really what you want in your heart, but it's something that you've defaulted to on an intellectual level because you either don't know what it is you really want, or you are less willing to do something completely different for fear that it makes no sense to someone else (i.e. recruiter).

I really encourage you to take a bit more risk here. Most MBA types will disagree because they become a slave to linear thinking about everything (that careers, life, any choice, etc has to have some linear rational progression of A+B=C in order for it to be valid - nothing wrong with this thinking, but it's limiting).

Put it this way. If you decided to go back and do an MFA in Writing, or went back to do a social work degree, or took some extra courses so that you can qualify to enroll in an MA program in Anthropology -- with your background that would make you infinitely more interesting than someone who was "all business, all the time".

A gal with an Ivy/IB/PE/HF background who did an MS in Environmental Science vs. the same person with an MBA: which one do you think is more dynamic? Which one is more likely to take a more dynamic path going forward? Which one will have a broader perspective about people, the world, etc.? Suppose this person isn't you - but a future boss. Who would you rather work for? Who would you rather work with?

Sure, some folks may go WTF? but do you really want to be associated or work with people who are so narrow minded?

But most importantly, do it for yourself. To be honest, you have more than enough "business" in your background. What you need and probably what you may even want is something more than that.

I don't want to over-quote Steve Jobs as he's been quoted to death (no pun intended) in the past week, but what he mentioned in his Stanford commencement speech about taking calligraphy is something that a lot of people (maybe even yourself) can relate to, and something that we all should do more of: which is to follow your instinct and let your raw curiosity guide your choices regardless of whether you feel it's practical or not -- because whether it is or not you will never know until in hindsight. And those who look at only whether it's practical or not end up limiting their world, limiting what is "new" and simply put -- limiting their learning and sense of discovery.

And that drive to learn, that sense of discovery, and making full use of your imagination -- these are the biggest assets you or anyone else can bring to any group situation - in business or anything else. It's not about bean counting and doing SWOT analysis and coming with silly charts that are repeated ad infinitum from some hazy memory of what you learned in business school.

Traveling the world certainly can help distance yourself from your past, but going to do an MBA isn't really the other half of the answer either in your case.

I highly encourage you to step outside the lines, take a bit more risk, because it's worth it for you. It doesn't necessarily mean the only choice is going back to school either (even if it's not an MBA). It could be spending time doing something completely different (working at a non-profit). Living in a monastery. Producing a documentary. Forming a band. Establishing an art gallery. Do something that gets you into another world other than business - you'll meet people you never would have met, and even if you do go back to the business world eventually, you will do so with that much more wisdom and perspective that can only help you when dealing and managing people, and will also give you greater potential to be creative and imaginative - as opposed to just administrative and rational.

Don't be a slave to the treadmill.

Excellent response Alex,very impressive. Thanks

wow. thanks so much for the very thoughtful reply. you really hit it spot on. as i read your post, it was as if you were reading my mind. i take lots of risks in my personal life (except that I call them adrenaline rushes) but taking risks professionally seems very difficult. i do want to affect a real career change and am networking with as many people as possible to try to figure things out. thanks again for the extra push.

F**k it,this is who i am. Take me or Leave me !

Hands down brilliant,Alex.
Respect.

Consider this:

You walk into a college classroom where most of the faces are Indian and Chinese (or “South Asian” and “East Asian” for the more broad term – and in this context, it’s not really a question of citizenship i.e. Indian-American vs Indian but of race).

If you were a recruiter for Goldman Sachs, McKinsey, Apple or any global company, would you perceive this school to be MORE or LESS prestigious? If you were a recruiter where post-MBA jobs are managerial and become more relationship-based (not analytical/technical), and where the key contacts your company corresponds with (investors, Board members, clients, customers, government officials) are mostly white (American or European), or at least a sprinkling of various nationalities and cultures (but still mostly white), would you be more willing to hire students from this classroom, or would you be more inclined to recruit from a similar caliber of school where there were more white faces in the class?

Now, if you were an applicant and walked into this very same classroom, would you perceive this school to be more prestigious or have an “exclusive” brand compared to a class that is more diverse (or where at least half were white)? As an applicant, would your opinions be different depending on your own race or nationality (which gets into the ugly truth that even in non-white countries, the perception of prestige and exclusivity is still defined by whether white people will buy it). And if b-school classrooms looked more like MS-Engineering programs (where the overwhelming majority are Indian/Chinese), would that increase or decrease the likelihood of you applying to a highly selective business school? (Note that “highly selective” and “prestigious” can be related but are not synonymous.)

And herein lies the ugly truth of race, prestige and admissions.

For business schools, and especially those in the very top tier like Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, and so forth – a big part of ensuring that their MBA programs stay relevant is to maintain their perceived prestige (exclusivity), because as we all know – while having an MBA can be of value, it’s not necessary for success in business, as amply shown by countless examples of incredibly successful entrepreneurs and executives out there without any formal business education. The perception of exclusivity for b-schools is rooted in the assumption that blue chip white males/females are the people others (regardless of background) want to be associated with. And that feeds on itself – the more of these people who apply, the more it will attract others to apply (including Asians), which creates a “network” which b-schools will then trumpet as something invaluable to its students (who are then networking with each other).

That’s why b-school admissions is more like the selection process for a private club: a country club, the freemasons, a hot nightclub (bring in all the hot girls, groups of guys are left standing in line), motorcycle club, or any sort of private organization. They can admit and reject whomever they want, and constantly change the parameters for admission to suit their needs (which isn't to graduate the "best and brightest" but to maintain that perception of prestige). Business school admissions is NOT a meritocracy, and it never really was, since the admissions process by nature is subjective and a "black box" if there ever was one.

When it comes to race and admissions, it’s not about trying to marginalize white or Asian applicants in the name of diversity – that seems to be a common refrain from many detractors who feel that adcoms are on some socialist, pinko, leftist agenda to admit as many “blacks, Hispanics and lesbian paraplegics” (of course, all mentioned in a derogatory tone by these very detractors) into b-school over more qualified white and Asian candidates –which is simply not the case because that is not what recruiters want, and it’s not what will ensure that applicants see these b-schools as “prestigious” (which will ensure that these schools continue to receive a crapload of applications each year).

In short, top MBA programs want their schools to be *diverse* (read: mostly or at least half white) rather than *ethnic* (read: mostly non-white) – that helps to ensure perceived prestige and exclusivity in our current culture of how we view the relationship between race and status symbols, which then helps to attract the maximum number of applicants as well as the most “exclusive” (read: highest paying) corporate recruiters. That is partly why they also are looking at younger candidates: it’s a way of reaching into the blue chip American pool (white kids with Ivy/equivalent backgrounds) to ensure that their numbers don't drop off to the point where b-school has to start looking like an MS-Engineering program – the less white people in the applicant pool, the more “ethnic” they have to go. This is ugly to say, but it's what is bubbling underneath all of this.

The one big silver lining to all this is that how we perceive race changes over time – it’s not static, but fluid. Even now, for many b-schools, the incoming classes are no longer overwhelmingly white, but again, the schools are “diverse” and not “ethnic”.

One example of how perceptions changed is that of the Jewish community – from “ethnic” to “mainstream.” Ivy League schools in the post-WWII era had a reputation for an unspoken two tiered admissions standard as a way to stem the influx of Jewish students for the very same reason: the perception of prestige. Many of these Jewish kids had as strong if not stronger credentials than their white counterparts to the Ivy League’s law and medical schools (b-schools back then were a bit of a backwater), but would still be underrepresented in these classrooms relative to the applicant pool. And yet, within a generation, that bias (at least when it comes to university admissions) has all but disappeared by the early 1980s.

With race and prestige today, I am confident it will change as the economic and cultural input of non-Western communities is considered mainstream, but this is where we’re at right now. So who knows, maybe in 10-15 years time, these biases may disappear altogether at least in this context of university admissions.

One question, when you say "economic and cultural input of non-Western communities is considered mainstream", what does it mean exactly ? I mean, contribution where, in which fields, and how exactly the contribution can/will be measured ?

In plain English -- as Diwali, Chinese New Year, and Cinco de Mayo become celebrated to the same degree as St. Patrick's Day, Valentine's Day and Christmas. Or when tandoori chicken is as American as pizza. Or when Anandalingam is seen as American a name as Russo. Basically, when non-western cultures in the US are as mainstream as the Irish, Italian and Jewish. Or when the executive teams, political leadership, and so forth are more or less reflective of the general population (i.e. about half white, and not overwhelmingly white male like it is now). Again, all trends are pointing towards this being inevitable, although it'll likely take another 10-20 years of gradual change before it reaches that point.

So this does mean that the US will remain the epicenter, despite the purported rise of places such as the BRIC economies ? In other words, success and clout inside the US will considered more prestigious even after 10-20 years ?

In short, yes.

Have you heard this one Alex?

B-schools as characters from the move Office Space.
*I did not write this, nor do i claim ownership. It was sent to me via email by a family member.

originally posted at https://www.bschoolers.com.

1.) Harvard - Pros: The best academic brand in the world, people from East Timor will know where you went to school. Graduates are extremely polished and dynamic leaders. its no coincidence that so many politicians these days are HBS grads.

Cons: Students are about as pompous and pretentious as possible. Polish is a fancy way of saying full of s**t. its no coincidence that so many politicians these days are HBS grads.

Office Space Character: Lumbergh (Peter’s hated boss). He’s a quintessential Harvard grad; in charge and full of platitudes that sound great but on further inspection don’t make any sense. He also drives a nice car and makes a lot of money while being universally loathed. Kind of sums up every HBS grad you’ve ever met, right?

2.) Stanford - Pros: Small class size and focus on do-gooders leads to an incredible array of backgrounds and accomplishments of students, who thrive in tight knit community. Haven for the really interesting superstars out there. Tremendous brand. Beautiful weather.

Cons: It may be interesting to be classmates with a Buddhist monk-fighter pilot, but its also hard to relate to anyone (”So, did that vow of peace make it hard to take out bogeys?”). For super accomplished business students with the world at their fingertips, it sure doesn’t seem like any of them actually like business.

Office Space Character: Peter (main character). He seems like the most level headed, likable and down to earth of any of the characters, but for all his talents, he ends up as a damn construction worker. He’s also a major league flake, showing up to work only when he feels like it. Can you say entitled?

3.) Wharton - Pros: Arguably the best technical business education in the world. Great brand name, and the job placements are second only to H/S.

Cons: Not sure if it’s the ultra rigorous curriculum, the competitive culture, or the fact that they have to live in Philly for two years, but Whartonites are paranoid bordering on psychotic. The odds of having a nervous breakdown in your life triple after going here. Double that if you actually ask anyone at Wharton to calculate those odds.

Office Space Character: Tom Smykowski (Co-worker that invents “jumping to conclusions mat”). I’m assuming that Tom was actually an excellent technical employee, but that his constant fear of losing his job made him batsh*t crazy. Most fitting quote “I’m a People Person!!!!!!” when yelling at the consultants.

4.) Northwestern - Pros: Strong team culture and arguably the best marketing program in the country. Incredibly collaborative for such a large school. Great location next to major financial center (Chicago).

Cons: Very soft curriculum, these guys are poets. I’m pretty sure that Kellogg finance classes are prerecorded cartoons taught by Disney characters. Is it really worth it to pay $10000+ to drink every night? I mean, couldn’t you just do that without the degree?

Office Space Character: Joanna (Peter’s girlfriend). Like Peter, she’s very likable, level headed and likes to get around. Unfortunately she’s also vastly less skilled than many of her fellow characters. Thank God she’s hot.

5.) Chicago - Pros: Finance education is second only to Wharton globally (and even that’s debatable). Probably the best facilities of all the top business schools. Fantastic job placements and close proximity to Chicago. Academic horsepower of profs is untouchable.

Cons: Socially awkward is an understatement. Unlike Whartonites who are just high strung, Chicago GSBers either never learned or quickly forgot how to communicate with peers. Make sure to wear a face mask if they’re talking to you ’cause spits going to fly.

Office Space Character: Milton (Co-worker that loves red swingline stapler). Milton seems like a nice enough guy, and he might be the smartest guy in the office (he pulls off the grand caper in the end). It’s just that he’s about as charismatic as a toilet bowl. Hire ‘em, just make sure to get GSBers an office in the basement.

6.) Columbia - Pros: Great location in the middle of global financial center (New York). Most diverse student body in terms of minorities and women. Very strong finance program. New York allows great social and job placement opportunities, and draws worldly, cosmopolitan students.

Cons: Cliquish and commuterish. Columbia is like a high school with super rich kids. High ***hole factor. This isn’t the kind of school where you’ll be going to house parties, its more like the kind of school where you’re expected to order bottle service for twenty guys on a student budget or else be ostracized.

Office Space Character: Bobs (consultants that lay off workers). They seem smart, they have great jobs, but c’mon, these guys are douchebags.

7.) MIT - Pros: World class entrepreneurship program, and probably the best supply management program in America. Attached to world class research center, and location in Boston is strong. Great job placement, especially in consulting.

Cons: For all their unique academic offerings, the overall school is like 90/10 men/women including undergrads. Takes the term sausage fest to a whole new level. Nerdy culture.

Office Space Character: Michael Bolton (Peter’s co-worker and friend). Michael Bolton desperately wants to be cool, listening to rap music, talking in slang, but lets face it, he’s a dork. He’s also hampered by his dorky namesake, which seems to attract a lot of nerdy people (to his obvious dismay).

8.) Tuck -Pros: Small class size and tight culture leads to maybe the most enthusiastic students in any school. Great respect from recruiters. Alumni network is arguably the most responsive and helpful of any top school. Strong rigorous program.

Cons: Very conformist culture, and really limited social options. These guys seem so enthusiastic about their school that I’m almost certain that all students are given ecstasy at orientation. Listen, if two years in the middle of Nowhere, New Hampshire were to constitute the best two years of my life, I would kill myself.

Office Space Character: Brian (Works with Joannas at Chotchkies, wears 37 pieces of flair). Brian is well meaning and LOVES his job. Never mind that he’s a waiter at a glorified TGIF, he still loves it with all his heart. They say ignorance is bliss, in which case, maybe Tuckies have the secret after all. That or, like Brian, they’re borderline retarded.

9.) Michigan - Pros: Maybe the most hands-on practical curriculum of all the top schools. New facilities coming up in 2009. Largest alumni network of any business school. State school, so the 2nd year is cheaper.

Cons: Location proximity leaves something to be desired (Detroit? Why not put it next to Beirut). The overall atmosphere here is very fratty and college like. Every single UMich student and alumni I’ve spoken to say the highlight of their experience was tailgating and watching football. EVERYONE. Not that football isn’t awesome, but no one else had any other experience that was noteworthy? They probably forgot the rest after beerbonging Jagermeister.

Office Space Character: Lawrence (Peter’s next door neighbor and friend). Lawrence is a good guy. He’s loyal, and salt of the earth. He also has a few rough edges, and would use 1 million dollars to be intimate with two other women. Have a great time with old Lawrence. Just don’t be surprised if all you end up with is a job he hooked you up with at the local quarry.

10.) Haas - Pros: Great location in the bay, and strong ties to Silicon Valley. Great weather. Small class size and tight culture. Berkeley has very strong international brand name.

Cons: Weak ties to financial sector, and east coast in general. The culture here is definitely about as PC as it gets. This seems like the type of school where you’d need to get a permission slip before you held a woman’s hand on campus.

Office Space Character: Stan (Joanna’s manager at Chotchkies). Stan wants Joanna to do more than the bare minimum. After all, people can get an MBA anywhere, but they come to Chotckies/Haas for the atmosphere! Don’t you want to do more than the bare minimum? Then put on your flair, burn some bras and save a whale you selfish jerk.

11.) Duke - Pros: Maybe the best health care management program in the country. Great brand name, especially in the south. Strong team culture.

Cons: Relatively young MBA program, so alumni network is small. As such, the brand cache just isn’t there yet. People that come here seem very cookie cutter to me, not in a bad way, just very comfortable and relatively unambitious.

Office Space Character: Samir (Peter’s co-worker and friend). Samir is a nice guy, very practical and unassuming. You get the feeling that he’s happy as long as he has a job in hand. Won’t make waves, won’t screw up, and won’t take any risks. But he’s a happy guy, and will have a house with 2.2 kids and a dog in a suburb somewhere (probably Durham).

12.) Darden - Pros: Strong Case method program and rigorous curriculum is universally respected. Alumni network is very strong and active with current students.

Cons: Middle of nowhere. Intellectual horsepower not as strong at a lot of the other top schools.

Office Space Character: Anne (Peter’s ex-girlfriend who was cheating on him). Anne just seemed really high maintenance and uptight. You try doing twenty cases a week for a year and see what happens to you. Just don’t be surprised if it’s a bigger bi**h than you imagined.

13.) NYU - Pros: Great location within spitting distance of Wall Street. Strong finance curriculum, and media program.

Cons: Location in downtown Manhattan make this the ultimate commuter school. Weird inferiority complex with Columbia. If you don’t go into finance or media, good luck.

Office Space Character: Other Lumbergh (ex-co-worker of Peter, Joanna’s ex-boyfriend). From all accounts, the other Lumbergh was a likable guy who was good at his job and got a great job offer to move on somewhere else. We just never actually saw him. Kind of like your NYU classmates.

14.) UCLA - Pros: LA! Sun, beach, beautiful glamorous people everywhere! Strong ties to Southern California business and great real estate program.

Cons: LA. UV rays, crowded beaches and shallow, materialistic people everywhere. You get the feeling that UCLA students are there just to spend two years in SoCal rather than to get jobs. As such, this place draws vapid, materialistic people. But damn they’re hot!

Office Space Character: Drew (Peter’s co-worker, describes the famous “O-face”). Drew’s a fun-loving guy that people like. He’s also the kind of guy that would tell anyone who was willing to listen graphic descriptions of all his sexual exploits. I liked Drew when I was 19. When I’m 26..?

15.) Cornell - Pros: Maybe the best Hospitality management program in the country. Ivy league brand name, and strong ties to some top consumer management companies. Small tight knit culture.

Cons: In the middle of nowhere, and it’s definitely a cut below a lot of the top tier programs. I mean, hospitality management? Seriously?

Office Space Character: Peggy (Lumbergh’s secretary). She’s kind of in hospitality: “Initech, can I put you on hold? Thank you! Initech, can I put you on hold? Thank you! Initech, can I put you on hold? Thank you! .”

16.) Yale - Pros: World class brand name. Arguably the best social enterprise program in the country. Relatively strong job placement for the rank.

Cons: Newer program means little real rep with employers or alumni to lean on.

Office Space character: Dr. Swanson (Peter’s psychologist/hypnotist). The Dr. has a very strong reputation, and he makes Peter go from depressed to happy (what a do-gooder!). But when it comes to the rankings, he just falls over dead.

Yes, the Office Space one has been around for quite a few years now haha but still funny