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Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship)

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Tuck vs Darden ($$$ + chance at prestigious fellowship)

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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 18 Jan 2013, 11:03
Shawshank wrote:
joy4ol wrote:
@LatAmMan that's an awfully helpful post there. Thnaks...

@LatAmMan, @Shawshank I understand I can apply to these joint degree program while still in year 1. What is the selectivity level of these MA/MPA type of courses at say Kennedy School or SAIS? Can a person with no related experience (as in my case) get into these programs based on pure interest?

On a separate note, was a little bummed to see that GS, JPM, Barclays, CS, Amex, BOA, hadn't hired a single international candidate from Darden last year (though DB, Citi, Fidelity, Jefferies and Nomura did). Even though I don't see myself going into ibanking right now, this data point is certainly not reassuring. Is it a matter of self-selection or am I missing something very basic here? Can somebody in the know chime in. Btw, Tuck doesn't break this information for internationals so no idea what's up with internationals there. I will also drop in a mail with the career services of both schools.



Yes, you don't need to have public sector experience to apply to policy programs. Actually you would stand out given your private sector work. Apply to kennedy and sais since tuck has formal joint degrees with both programs. Avoid columbia sipa; it has a very weak career services, weak student body and is just a cash cow for columbia university.

As I said before, darden makes little sense for your career goals. I'm NOT bashing darden by any means; it's a great general management program and for vast majority of people, darden will get them to where they need to be. In your case however, you should go to tuck. Or if you are willing to wait, strengthen your resume and re-apply to booth/sloan/wharton next year. But i'm guessing that you want to go this year.


QFT. I know people who have gone to HKS and SAIS with private sector only experience...the adcoms actually really like that kind of experience, as far as I can tell. Admissions rates are in the 20-30% for both schools, last I checked, though the data simply isn't there like it is for top MBA programs. If you have a GMAT in the 80% band for Tuck and Darden you have the scores for HKS and SAIS...the student body in general would stat wise be slightly weaker than a top MBA. Also, agreed completely with Shawshank...SIPA is a cash cow and ought to be avoided.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 18 Jan 2013, 13:08
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Go to Tuck. Even though Darden places at BBs, it's still not a core finance school and the competition will be tougher (less spots for each bank, more students). Also as an international student, you will get beat out more by US based students who will do a better job networking for the few spots. In the same time, overall quality of Tuck students will be higher than Darden's, making it a more competitive process from that perspective. $100K is like first year bonus at a BB (pre tax though). You will survive.

At Fuqua (similar to Darden) and landed a BB summer associate role. Saw these play out first hand.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 18 Jan 2013, 14:01
abacab wrote:
Go to Tuck. Even though Darden places at BBs, it's still not a core finance school and the competition will be tougher (less spots for each bank, more students). Also as an international student, you will get beat out more by US based students who will do a better job networking for the few spots. In the same time, overall quality of Tuck students will be higher than Darden's, making it a more competitive process from that perspective. $100K is like first year bonus at a BB (pre tax though). You will survive.

At Fuqua (similar to Darden) and landed a BB summer associate role. Saw these play out first hand.



I agree with this. Tuck is just a better b-school overall than darden, and you will get access to better opportunities. $100K in the long-term is not that much money; you don't want to go to darden and start regretting it 10 years down the road because you're having a tough time breaking into the job you want. Think of the MBA as a life investment. Don't sell yourself short.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 03:18
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Joy4ol, I would strongly recommend you to choose Darden. As a current IFC employee, I can say that both schools are equally represented and have the same brand recognition within IFC. Going to Tuck won't give any advantage in this case. So given a very generous scholarship that Darden offers it is a no-brainer for me.

On a separate note, if you interested in the investment stream at IFC/World Bank then all joint degrees in the public interest are not relevant at all. As I undestand, you already have finance experience (fixed income researh), so you should be fine at the interview there.

Please feel free to PM if you need any additional info about IFC/World Bank.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 14:53
abacab wrote:
Go to Tuck. Even though Darden places at BBs, it's still not a core finance school and the competition will be tougher (less spots for each bank, more students). Also as an international student, you will get beat out more by US based students who will do a better job networking for the few spots. In the same time, overall quality of Tuck students will be higher than Darden's, making it a more competitive process from that perspective. $100K is like first year bonus at a BB (pre tax though). You will survive.

At Fuqua (similar to Darden) and landed a BB summer associate role. Saw these play out first hand.

Congrats on your BB summer, Abacab. Is there a substantial difference in the number of recruitment slots that banks decide on at semi-core programs such as Fuqua/Darden? As I said before, I am a bit worried about the absence of international recruits at the top BBs like GS and JPM at Darden last year. You are right of course, about the likelihood of tougher competition for BB slots at Tuck. So if the difference is substantial, this will be an important point to consider.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 14:56
AlexInter wrote:
Joy4ol, I would strongly recommend you to choose Darden. As a current IFC employee, I can say that both schools are equally represented and have the same brand recognition within IFC. Going to Tuck won't give any advantage in this case. So given a very generous scholarship that Darden offers it is a no-brainer for me.

On a separate note, if you interested in the investment stream at IFC/World Bank then all joint degrees in the public interest are not relevant at all. As I undestand, you already have finance experience (fixed income researh), so you should be fine at the interview there.

Please feel free to PM if you need any additional info about IFC/World Bank.

Good point AlexInter. And you got that part about my interest in the investment stream (basically the investment officer track) correct. But i like the idea of MBA/MPA as well now (I know I am a confused guy :) ) Anything to not do ibanking i guess :D

PMed you for more info. Darden is pretty much in my consideration at this moment. Waiting for the fellowship weekend!
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 15:32
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Congrats on your BB summer, Abacab. Is there a substantial difference in the number of recruitment slots that banks decide on at semi-core programs such as Fuqua/Darden? As I said before, I am a bit worried about the absence of international recruits at the top BBs like GS and JPM at Darden last year. You are right of course, about the likelihood of tougher competition for BB slots at Tuck. So if the difference is substantial, this will be an important point to consider.


Yes there is a substantial difference. Banks like Morgan Stanley or JPM might have only 1-2 slots for a non-core school while Wharton or Harvard will have 7-8 spots. Not to mention the numbers you will see for JPM or GS are diluted by PWM roles and some IB roles are actually for international students home countries like Tokyo office which should not be counted. Then there is the group placement where your brand and alumni connection matters, along with post summer offer success. If you were at a place like Chicago, Columbia or Wharton where 70% of students are trying IB, competition is really bad. But a non finance, but top school like Kellogg or Tuck is much better for IB numbers game. There won't be enough qualified students on campus to compete with (many will try for consulting, true for Darden and Fuqua as well). Your short term goal is not IFC, it's a BB. If you land there, you can go to IFC regardless of Darden, Tuck or UNC. So go somewhere that will put you in best shape for BB. Recruiting is a tough game and everyone in each school thinks they will end up at MBB consulting or BB, and only a small portion does.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 15:47
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abacab wrote:
joy4ol wrote:
Congrats on your BB summer, Abacab. Is there a substantial difference in the number of recruitment slots that banks decide on at semi-core programs such as Fuqua/Darden? As I said before, I am a bit worried about the absence of international recruits at the top BBs like GS and JPM at Darden last year. You are right of course, about the likelihood of tougher competition for BB slots at Tuck. So if the difference is substantial, this will be an important point to consider.


Yes there is a substantial difference. Banks like Morgan Stanley or JPM might have only 1-2 slots for a non-core school while Wharton or Harvard will have 7-8 spots. Not to mention the numbers you will see for JPM or GS are diluted by PWM roles and some IB roles are actually for international students home countries like Tokyo office which should not be counted. Then there is the group placement where your brand and alumni connection matters, along with post summer offer success. If you were at a place like Chicago, Columbia or Wharton where 70% of students are trying IB, competition is really bad. But a non finance, but top school like Kellogg or Tuck is much better for IB numbers game. There won't be enough qualified students on campus to compete with (many will try for consulting, true for Darden and Fuqua as well). Your short term goal is not IFC, it's a BB. If you land there, you can go to IFC regardless of Darden, Tuck or UNC. So go somewhere that will put you in best shape for BB. Recruiting is a tough game and everyone in each school thinks they will end up at MBB consulting or BB, and only a small portion does.

Where in the world did you the statistic that 70% of students at these schools are trying IB? I'm at Booth and less than 20% of my class is recruiting for IB positions. In fact, interes tin IB has gone DOWN at many of the "finance" schools over the last few years. In fact at Booth it's common knowledge that you pretty much have to take dump on an MD's desk not to get a banking offer. Most IB recruits actually wind up with MULTIPLE offers. I'm not saying IB isn't competitive in and of itself, but please don't give people the idea everyone and their mama is recruiting for it at certain schools. Maybe 10 years ago this was the case but definitely not today. The career interests of most business schools' student bodies have become much more diverse.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 16:06
cheetarah1980 wrote:
abacab wrote:
joy4ol wrote:
Congrats on your BB summer, Abacab. Is there a substantial difference in the number of recruitment slots that banks decide on at semi-core programs such as Fuqua/Darden? As I said before, I am a bit worried about the absence of international recruits at the top BBs like GS and JPM at Darden last year. You are right of course, about the likelihood of tougher competition for BB slots at Tuck. So if the difference is substantial, this will be an important point to consider.


Yes there is a substantial difference. Banks like Morgan Stanley or JPM might have only 1-2 slots for a non-core school while Wharton or Harvard will have 7-8 spots. Not to mention the numbers you will see for JPM or GS are diluted by PWM roles and some IB roles are actually for international students home countries like Tokyo office which should not be counted. Then there is the group placement where your brand and alumni connection matters, along with post summer offer success. If you were at a place like Chicago, Columbia or Wharton where 70% of students are trying IB, competition is really bad. But a non finance, but top school like Kellogg or Tuck is much better for IB numbers game. There won't be enough qualified students on campus to compete with (many will try for consulting, true for Darden and Fuqua as well). Your short term goal is not IFC, it's a BB. If you land there, you can go to IFC regardless of Darden, Tuck or UNC. So go somewhere that will put you in best shape for BB. Recruiting is a tough game and everyone in each school thinks they will end up at MBB consulting or BB, and only a small portion does.

Where in the world did you the statistic that 70% of students at these schools are trying IB? I'm at Booth and less than 20% of my class is recruiting for IB positions. In fact, interes tin IB has gone DOWN at many of the "finance" schools over the last few years. In fact at Booth it's common knowledge that you pretty much have to take dump on an MD's desk not to get a banking offer. Most IB recruits actually wind up with MULTIPLE offers. I'm not saying IB isn't competitive in and of itself, but please don't give people the idea everyone and their mama is recruiting for it at certain schools. Maybe 10 years ago this was the case but definitely not today. The career interests of most business schools' student bodies have become much more diverse.



Cheetah is totally right on this point. At the top programs interest in i-banking has declined considerably in the last few years. That helps explain the precipitous decline in apps to columbia/nyu last year. Consulting remains super hot, but a lot of people are looking into startups, tech, marketing, corporate strategy, and buyside jobs.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 16:55
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cheetarah1980 wrote:
In fact at Booth it's common knowledge that you pretty much have to take dump on an MD's desk not to get a banking offer.


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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 17:06
Actually I know Booth students who wanted banking real bad and didn't get it without taking a dump at MDs desk. EOD at a top MBA almost everyone will be employed and no one will keep track of who didn't end up in first choice. Do agree on the strong consulting movement. Again did everyone who wanted McKinsey got it or ended up at Deloitte or something? Hard to say.

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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 17:21
abacab wrote:
Actually I know Booth students who wanted banking real bad and didn't get it without taking a dump at MDs desk. EOD at a top MBA almost everyone will be employed and no one will keep track of who didn't end up in first choice. Do agree on the strong consulting movement. Again did everyone who wanted McKinsey got it or ended up at Deloitte or something? Hard to say.

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According to my friend at kellogg, about 30-40% of his classmates who recruited for MBB consulting got offers. I imagine the % hit rate is similar at booth. Consulting hiring, unlike finance, is SUPER HOT.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 20:26
Means 60-70% who did recruit for MBB didn't get it which is a good 100+ very qualified people, from a M7 school none the less.

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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 20 Jan 2013, 13:10
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Means 60-70% who did recruit for MBB didn't get it which is a good 100+ very qualified people, from a M7 school none the less.

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That's looking at the glass as being half-empty. You're not going to get a highly coveted job on a silver platter just because you're at a certain school. As I see it, 30-40% chance at MBB (maybe slightly higher at HSW) is amazingly good odds.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 20 Jan 2013, 14:56
Not saying any place will guarantee a job. Just good to be aware that you could be on the half empty side as easily and best to stack up in the favorable side and put in the leg work.

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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 20 Jan 2013, 14:57
Lets keep it on topic, guys. Feel free to start a new discussion in the career forum if you so desire.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 20 Jan 2013, 15:22
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abacab wrote:
Not saying any place will guarantee a job. Just good to be aware that you could be on the half empty side as easily and best to stack up in the favorable side and put in the leg work.

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Ok, it's my last comment on this topic since I don't want to go off-topic too much. It's NOT wise to turn down a better b-school just so you could be a "bigger fish in a small pond" at a lower ranked school. Such an approach may be advisable for undergrad but not for MBA.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 20 Jan 2013, 15:34
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joy4ol, I think you'd be better off going to a better source of information than GMATClub. The people who would really know which school is the best choice given your goals are students at Darden, Tuck, who are recruiting for IB and corp fin and people who have worked at IFC, WB. Most of the people who have responded to this thread aren't from either school, and others have yet to even attend school. People are going off of hearsay and rankings, more than what actually is possible given the resources and alums of both schools. People on this thread have said that Darden is a non-target school for IB, yet Consulting2Finance (who actually goes to Darden) made it clear that Darden got the full recruitment resources (company presentation, dinners, coffee chats, on campus interviews) of all the BB banks.
GMATClub is a great resource but when it comes to picking a school you have to take the advice you get with a very large grain of salt. People have their own biases, preferences, and agendas when posting and what is really opinion is communicated as fact. Just because someone heard from one student at a school that IB recruiting is low doesn't mean that that's the truth. You're getting second or third hand information. Personally, I do not know enough about Tuck or Darden to comment on whether you should take or leave the money. Try reaching out to LadyRoadWarrior. She's a first year at Tuck. She's not recruiting for finance but she'll know who to put you in touch with. I hope this helps.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 22 Jan 2013, 09:18
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Hi all,

I am a second year student at Darden, and wanted to offer a couple of thoughts. Understandably, decision-making time is not always easy and you want to make an informed decision as possible. So I hope my perspective might be of help.

First off, figuring out how many people went to certain banks and comparing across schools can be misleading - and in my view, isn't the right reason to attend a school. I'm not saying the numbers are wrong. But, looking purely at placement numbers doesn't account for the total number of offers that were given out (and then accepted or declined), nor does it account for the vastly different class sizes in some of the comparisons. While I do think it is important to see the types of employers that recruit from each school, I am skeptical that digging deep into the data will be the best basis for your decision.

Secondly - and I will just speak only for Darden since I haven't attended the other programs - but I was very impressed by the caliber and range of employers that Darden attracted in the Investment Banking field. Admittedly, I did not recruit for banking so I didn't go through this particular process. But, I did work at GS for 4 years prior to school, so I am fairly familiar with the industry, and I can't think of a major IB player who I did not see on campus with the exception maybe of some of the boutiques. Point is, banking is one of Darden's strengths as far as recruiting goes. As a side note, I saw some concern on the thread about international student recruiting - I am happy to connect you with international classmates who went into finance/banking, if you send me a message.

Third, I do agree that rankings are important - and cause some of the school decisions to be really difficult - but as important, I believe, is the idea of "fit." In your gut, is there a program that feels right for you? To me, this is very important because the MBA was, in my opinion, a life experience, rather than just a mechanism to change jobs. You will hopefully make friends and networks, learn about truly difficult skills beyond the coursework like communication and teamwork, travel to places you've never been, take part in fun school traditions, encounter unexpected challenges, meet inspiring professors or business leaders, and take steps towards a great career. Consider the environment in which you think you will thrive and take advantage of these opportunities. For me (again, personally), of course I wanted to get in front of the employers I was most interested in, but I tend to think you will have that opportunity at any top school - and at that point it's largely up to you to land it (not a brand name). I made what I thought was a tough choice at the time to come to Darden (I was targeting companies in California, where I also had offers from MBA programs), but I went with my gut; in retrospect, I couldn't have been happier with my decision, and it turns out, I'm headed to California afterwards. I'm not saying that Darden is right for everyone - it might not be! My point is that choosing an MBA program is a personal choice and hopefully through campus visits, honest conversations with students/staff, and some research, you will cut through the noise and get a good sense for the program that feels best for you holistically, including recruiting and other considerations.

Lastly, Tuck vs Darden vs some of the other great programs I have seen on this thread - all great options. At the end of the day, it's what you make of it and, the MBA is a great experience so I think you will have a good time wherever you go.

Hope this helps, please let me know if I can help answer any questions about Darden...
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 22 Jan 2013, 12:33
cheetarah1980 wrote:
joy4ol, I think you'd be better off going to a better source of information than GMATClub. The people who would really know which school is the best choice given your goals are students at Darden, Tuck, who are recruiting for IB and corp fin and people who have worked at IFC, WB. Most of the people who have responded to this thread aren't from either school, and others have yet to even attend school. People are going off of hearsay and rankings, more than what actually is possible given the resources and alums of both schools. People on this thread have said that Darden is a non-target school for IB, yet Consulting2Finance (who actually goes to Darden) made it clear that Darden got the full recruitment resources (company presentation, dinners, coffee chats, on campus interviews) of all the BB banks.
GMATClub is a great resource but when it comes to picking a school you have to take the advice you get with a very large grain of salt. People have their own biases, preferences, and agendas when posting and what is really opinion is communicated as fact. Just because someone heard from one student at a school that IB recruiting is low doesn't mean that that's the truth. You're getting second or third hand information. Personally, I do not know enough about Tuck or Darden to comment on whether you should take or leave the money. Try reaching out to LadyRoadWarrior. She's a first year at Tuck. She's not recruiting for finance but she'll know who to put you in touch with. I hope this helps.

Of course, Cheetarah! I am currently in conservation with students at both colleges. reached out to consulting2finance as well.
Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship)   [#permalink] 22 Jan 2013, 12:33
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