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Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship)

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Tuck vs Darden ($$$ + chance at prestigious fellowship)

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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2013, 17:49
Shawshank wrote:
joy4ol wrote:
clomps wrote:
I love Darden and with your full ride, I would have a really hard time saying no to that sort of money. However, in your situation, I would pick Tuck. Given your aspirations to work in Asia, Dartmouth is a MUCH bigger name there than UVA. I'm not saying that you couldn't get there by going to Darden. But I think Tuck will open more doors for you on that front. Yes, Tuck has a a slightly better reputation than Darden in the U.S., but in Asia, I think there is a much more substantial gap.

If money is not a significant issue, go with Tuck. If money is indeed an issue (which it probably would for most of us on this forum!), go with Darden.

Dartmouth is a much bigger brand name than UVa, really? Are you sure. I feel they are sadly both unknown in the APAC region. The only reason most people I have talked to knew about Tuck was because of the ivy-league thing, which seems less relevant here. In favor of your argument, however, LinkedIn did in fact consistently display slightly greater number of Tuck alums in finance related careers in Singapore and Hong Kong (flawed methodology notwithstanding). The difference was starker for London. But the numbers were so low for both schools that I was a little disappointed with both :P


Tuck's network is small due to its class size. No one will argue on that. But the network is extremely loyal and will go to bat for a fellow tuckie. For example, every Tuck student/alum I talked to said that when they would e-mail an alum, they would get a response 90% of the time and often, they would gladly meet up for a chat and forward your resume over to the right people. I don't think you can understate intensity when it comes to the value of an alumni network.

Tuck is actually quite strong in London and Tokyo because the school has gone out of its way to expand their reach in those cities. So if you go to Tuck, I think getting a bank job in london/tokyo is certainly feasible while with darden, it will be harder.

All good points which I will take into consideration!
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2013, 17:50
joy4ol wrote:
Sorry, I meant Joint degree (JD) as in MBA+MA. Does JD have different connotation as well in law?


Juris Doctor. Just as MDs are doctors, JDs are lawyers, and MBAs are crazies.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2013, 17:53
hamm0 wrote:
joy4ol wrote:
Sorry, I meant Joint degree (JD) as in MBA+MA. Does JD have different connotation as well in law?


Juris Doctor. Just as MDs are doctors, JDs are lawyers, and MBAs are crazies.

LOL :D

Interesting. India does not have this designation I am quite sure. Crazies - yes I presume!
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 16 Jan 2013, 22:31
Just chiming in. Don't complicate your decision making process. I think you're already sold on Tuck, so its more important that you visit Darden and see how you fit in there, fellowship or no fellowship.
I believe both Darden and Tuck are relatively unknown in Asia. Yes the Tuck alums are fantastic and Tuck is keen to expand its international clout but Darden is no less (based on my own research). So gather the info you need on the Darden network and the support they can offer you.

Personally, I love Tuck but I'd think hard about an equally great school that has shown so much interest in me.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 17 Jan 2013, 00:28
Prudence wrote:
Just chiming in. Don't complicate your decision making process. I think you're already sold on Tuck, so its more important that you visit Darden and see how you fit in there, fellowship or no fellowship.
I believe both Darden and Tuck are relatively unknown in Asia. Yes the Tuck alums are fantastic and Tuck is keen to expand its international clout but Darden is no less (based on my own research). So gather the info you need on the Darden network and the support they can offer you.

Personally, I love Tuck but I'd think hard about an equally great school that has shown so much interest in me.



In finance, tuck and darden are not equals. Even in MBB consulting tuck does better on a per capita basis. Darden is great, and it's a lot of fun, but i think people are too easily conflating tuck with darden. Yes, tuck is not hbs or wharton and never will be, but given the OP's career goals, i think tuck has a distinct advantage.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 17 Jan 2013, 14:48
What if the alternative to Darden was Wharton instead of Tuck? Just out of interest, how far up the list does everyone think you need to go to make it almost a "no-brainer"?
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 17 Jan 2013, 15:13
dan62287 wrote:
What if the alternative to Darden was Wharton instead of Tuck? Just out of interest, how far up the list does everyone think you need to go to make it almost a "no-brainer"?



Wharton/booth are complete no-brainers given the op's career goals (or most career goals in my opinion). Heck, i would turn down darden even if they offered me full tuition, room and board, and spending cash, for wharton/booth full-sticker.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 17 Jan 2013, 15:30
@LatAmMan that's an awfully helpful post there. Thnaks...

@LatAmMan, @Shawshank I understand I can apply to these joint degree program while still in year 1. What is the selectivity level of these MA/MPA type of courses at say Kennedy School or SAIS? Can a person with no related experience (as in my case) get into these programs based on pure interest?

On a separate note, was a little bummed to see that GS, JPM, Barclays, CS, Amex, BOA, hadn't hired a single international candidate from Darden last year (though DB, Citi, Fidelity, Jefferies and Nomura did). Even though I don't see myself going into ibanking right now, this data point is certainly not reassuring. Is it a matter of self-selection or am I missing something very basic here? Can somebody in the know chime in. Btw, Tuck doesn't break this information for internationals so no idea what's up with internationals there. I will also drop in a mail with the career services of both schools.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 18 Jan 2013, 11:03
Shawshank wrote:
joy4ol wrote:
@LatAmMan that's an awfully helpful post there. Thnaks...

@LatAmMan, @Shawshank I understand I can apply to these joint degree program while still in year 1. What is the selectivity level of these MA/MPA type of courses at say Kennedy School or SAIS? Can a person with no related experience (as in my case) get into these programs based on pure interest?

On a separate note, was a little bummed to see that GS, JPM, Barclays, CS, Amex, BOA, hadn't hired a single international candidate from Darden last year (though DB, Citi, Fidelity, Jefferies and Nomura did). Even though I don't see myself going into ibanking right now, this data point is certainly not reassuring. Is it a matter of self-selection or am I missing something very basic here? Can somebody in the know chime in. Btw, Tuck doesn't break this information for internationals so no idea what's up with internationals there. I will also drop in a mail with the career services of both schools.



Yes, you don't need to have public sector experience to apply to policy programs. Actually you would stand out given your private sector work. Apply to kennedy and sais since tuck has formal joint degrees with both programs. Avoid columbia sipa; it has a very weak career services, weak student body and is just a cash cow for columbia university.

As I said before, darden makes little sense for your career goals. I'm NOT bashing darden by any means; it's a great general management program and for vast majority of people, darden will get them to where they need to be. In your case however, you should go to tuck. Or if you are willing to wait, strengthen your resume and re-apply to booth/sloan/wharton next year. But i'm guessing that you want to go this year.


QFT. I know people who have gone to HKS and SAIS with private sector only experience...the adcoms actually really like that kind of experience, as far as I can tell. Admissions rates are in the 20-30% for both schools, last I checked, though the data simply isn't there like it is for top MBA programs. If you have a GMAT in the 80% band for Tuck and Darden you have the scores for HKS and SAIS...the student body in general would stat wise be slightly weaker than a top MBA. Also, agreed completely with Shawshank...SIPA is a cash cow and ought to be avoided.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 18 Jan 2013, 14:01
abacab wrote:
Go to Tuck. Even though Darden places at BBs, it's still not a core finance school and the competition will be tougher (less spots for each bank, more students). Also as an international student, you will get beat out more by US based students who will do a better job networking for the few spots. In the same time, overall quality of Tuck students will be higher than Darden's, making it a more competitive process from that perspective. $100K is like first year bonus at a BB (pre tax though). You will survive.

At Fuqua (similar to Darden) and landed a BB summer associate role. Saw these play out first hand.



I agree with this. Tuck is just a better b-school overall than darden, and you will get access to better opportunities. $100K in the long-term is not that much money; you don't want to go to darden and start regretting it 10 years down the road because you're having a tough time breaking into the job you want. Think of the MBA as a life investment. Don't sell yourself short.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 14:53
abacab wrote:
Go to Tuck. Even though Darden places at BBs, it's still not a core finance school and the competition will be tougher (less spots for each bank, more students). Also as an international student, you will get beat out more by US based students who will do a better job networking for the few spots. In the same time, overall quality of Tuck students will be higher than Darden's, making it a more competitive process from that perspective. $100K is like first year bonus at a BB (pre tax though). You will survive.

At Fuqua (similar to Darden) and landed a BB summer associate role. Saw these play out first hand.

Congrats on your BB summer, Abacab. Is there a substantial difference in the number of recruitment slots that banks decide on at semi-core programs such as Fuqua/Darden? As I said before, I am a bit worried about the absence of international recruits at the top BBs like GS and JPM at Darden last year. You are right of course, about the likelihood of tougher competition for BB slots at Tuck. So if the difference is substantial, this will be an important point to consider.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 14:56
AlexInter wrote:
Joy4ol, I would strongly recommend you to choose Darden. As a current IFC employee, I can say that both schools are equally represented and have the same brand recognition within IFC. Going to Tuck won't give any advantage in this case. So given a very generous scholarship that Darden offers it is a no-brainer for me.

On a separate note, if you interested in the investment stream at IFC/World Bank then all joint degrees in the public interest are not relevant at all. As I undestand, you already have finance experience (fixed income researh), so you should be fine at the interview there.

Please feel free to PM if you need any additional info about IFC/World Bank.

Good point AlexInter. And you got that part about my interest in the investment stream (basically the investment officer track) correct. But i like the idea of MBA/MPA as well now (I know I am a confused guy :) ) Anything to not do ibanking i guess :D

PMed you for more info. Darden is pretty much in my consideration at this moment. Waiting for the fellowship weekend!
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 15:32
joy4ol wrote:
Congrats on your BB summer, Abacab. Is there a substantial difference in the number of recruitment slots that banks decide on at semi-core programs such as Fuqua/Darden? As I said before, I am a bit worried about the absence of international recruits at the top BBs like GS and JPM at Darden last year. You are right of course, about the likelihood of tougher competition for BB slots at Tuck. So if the difference is substantial, this will be an important point to consider.


Yes there is a substantial difference. Banks like Morgan Stanley or JPM might have only 1-2 slots for a non-core school while Wharton or Harvard will have 7-8 spots. Not to mention the numbers you will see for JPM or GS are diluted by PWM roles and some IB roles are actually for international students home countries like Tokyo office which should not be counted. Then there is the group placement where your brand and alumni connection matters, along with post summer offer success. If you were at a place like Chicago, Columbia or Wharton where 70% of students are trying IB, competition is really bad. But a non finance, but top school like Kellogg or Tuck is much better for IB numbers game. There won't be enough qualified students on campus to compete with (many will try for consulting, true for Darden and Fuqua as well). Your short term goal is not IFC, it's a BB. If you land there, you can go to IFC regardless of Darden, Tuck or UNC. So go somewhere that will put you in best shape for BB. Recruiting is a tough game and everyone in each school thinks they will end up at MBB consulting or BB, and only a small portion does.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 16:06
cheetarah1980 wrote:
abacab wrote:
joy4ol wrote:
Congrats on your BB summer, Abacab. Is there a substantial difference in the number of recruitment slots that banks decide on at semi-core programs such as Fuqua/Darden? As I said before, I am a bit worried about the absence of international recruits at the top BBs like GS and JPM at Darden last year. You are right of course, about the likelihood of tougher competition for BB slots at Tuck. So if the difference is substantial, this will be an important point to consider.


Yes there is a substantial difference. Banks like Morgan Stanley or JPM might have only 1-2 slots for a non-core school while Wharton or Harvard will have 7-8 spots. Not to mention the numbers you will see for JPM or GS are diluted by PWM roles and some IB roles are actually for international students home countries like Tokyo office which should not be counted. Then there is the group placement where your brand and alumni connection matters, along with post summer offer success. If you were at a place like Chicago, Columbia or Wharton where 70% of students are trying IB, competition is really bad. But a non finance, but top school like Kellogg or Tuck is much better for IB numbers game. There won't be enough qualified students on campus to compete with (many will try for consulting, true for Darden and Fuqua as well). Your short term goal is not IFC, it's a BB. If you land there, you can go to IFC regardless of Darden, Tuck or UNC. So go somewhere that will put you in best shape for BB. Recruiting is a tough game and everyone in each school thinks they will end up at MBB consulting or BB, and only a small portion does.

Where in the world did you the statistic that 70% of students at these schools are trying IB? I'm at Booth and less than 20% of my class is recruiting for IB positions. In fact, interes tin IB has gone DOWN at many of the "finance" schools over the last few years. In fact at Booth it's common knowledge that you pretty much have to take dump on an MD's desk not to get a banking offer. Most IB recruits actually wind up with MULTIPLE offers. I'm not saying IB isn't competitive in and of itself, but please don't give people the idea everyone and their mama is recruiting for it at certain schools. Maybe 10 years ago this was the case but definitely not today. The career interests of most business schools' student bodies have become much more diverse.



Cheetah is totally right on this point. At the top programs interest in i-banking has declined considerably in the last few years. That helps explain the precipitous decline in apps to columbia/nyu last year. Consulting remains super hot, but a lot of people are looking into startups, tech, marketing, corporate strategy, and buyside jobs.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 17:06
Actually I know Booth students who wanted banking real bad and didn't get it without taking a dump at MDs desk. EOD at a top MBA almost everyone will be employed and no one will keep track of who didn't end up in first choice. Do agree on the strong consulting movement. Again did everyone who wanted McKinsey got it or ended up at Deloitte or something? Hard to say.

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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 17:21
abacab wrote:
Actually I know Booth students who wanted banking real bad and didn't get it without taking a dump at MDs desk. EOD at a top MBA almost everyone will be employed and no one will keep track of who didn't end up in first choice. Do agree on the strong consulting movement. Again did everyone who wanted McKinsey got it or ended up at Deloitte or something? Hard to say.

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According to my friend at kellogg, about 30-40% of his classmates who recruited for MBB consulting got offers. I imagine the % hit rate is similar at booth. Consulting hiring, unlike finance, is SUPER HOT.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 19 Jan 2013, 20:26
Means 60-70% who did recruit for MBB didn't get it which is a good 100+ very qualified people, from a M7 school none the less.

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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 20 Jan 2013, 13:10
abacab wrote:
Means 60-70% who did recruit for MBB didn't get it which is a good 100+ very qualified people, from a M7 school none the less.

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That's looking at the glass as being half-empty. You're not going to get a highly coveted job on a silver platter just because you're at a certain school. As I see it, 30-40% chance at MBB (maybe slightly higher at HSW) is amazingly good odds.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 20 Jan 2013, 14:56
Not saying any place will guarantee a job. Just good to be aware that you could be on the half empty side as easily and best to stack up in the favorable side and put in the leg work.

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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship) [#permalink] New post 20 Jan 2013, 14:57
Lets keep it on topic, guys. Feel free to start a new discussion in the career forum if you so desire.
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Re: Tuck vs Darden ($$$+chance at prestigious fellowship)   [#permalink] 20 Jan 2013, 14:57
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