LBS 2012 - Calling All Applicants

Visa Issues / Bank Loan

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to get a confirmation/opinion on visa issues.

It seems to me that schools are not 100% straight forward in advising about the difficulties posed in staying/working, post studies, in the UK if one is not from European Union. The changes in the UK immigration law which come into effect from this year means that to be able to work in the UK one must be sponsored by an employer.

Now, for big banks and big consultancies, they have big HR set up to deal with the UKBA. But even in their case, they have to prove that they couldn't fill those vacancies with UK/EU nationals who have the right to work in the UK. This simply implies non-EU graduates stand second in line behind EU graduates during the recruitment process. Schools will never explicitly say that.

I am sure most of us have heard of the cuts in banking sector in London in the last quarter of 2011 and proposed cuts over the next 2-4years due to changes in the banking sector regulation proposed by the government. Most of it imply that the investment banking/ trading activities will be curtailed severely and hence result in a large chunk of jobs ( and the ones most sought after by MBAs) being lost.

School recruitment committees are dismissive of these facts (government regulation / banking job losses) as cyclical issues. However, its not....anyone who pays attention to market dynamics and to whats happening knows the regulation being pushed by the UK government are radical and will take at least 5 years to be implemented and are once in an era or generation thing. They are bound to curtail the London finance sector in a big way in the coming years. And thats why the government is trying extremely hard to prop up other sectors in london (east london specifically) and move away from london's / UK's reliance on finance.

My interactions with alumni reveal that a lot of graduates in the past got jobs in small private equity firms/ hedge funds/ boutique consultancies. These are small set-up but offer most lucrative opportunities. As such, they are lean and busy, and hardly want to bother with unnecessary bureaucratic hurdles in one of the least important chores - recruiting an MBA graduate. In case they do agree to recruit a non-EU candidate, they will have to once again prove non-availability of UK/EU national to do the same work.

Now speaking to alumni, it appears that its not as easy as appearing for the interview at the campus and walking out with a job offer. Its a real slog and lots of luck. They say (again in confidence) most of the jobs simply wouldn't be available if the firms are going to need to overcome this barrier - simply because, the supply(UK/EU candidates) far exceeds the demand.
This huge supply compared to contracting demand factor, in fact, is one of the reason that the UK government has made changes to its immigration policy to curb foreigners from getting jobs. Schools might try to give it a spin by saying "we are working with employers to make them understand the new rules" but the reality is rules have become more stringent and are aimed at preventing/making it more difficult for foreign students from taking up jobs in the UK.

As for past year statistics on jobs, they will be rendered mostly invalid for future job prospects given the changes underway. Even in its present form, most of us should know how they are manipulated with things like purchasing power parity, etc. to come out on top of rankings table.

Loans:
Banks know that given the future difficult, if not impossible, job/visa scenario, giving loans to foreign students is stupid. That is why HSBC withdrew its MBA loan scheme, which it had run for a number of years, in the middle/peak of admissions season. And that too, just before the visa changes come into play. They know the potential of that loan to turn into a bad asset is very high. You might still get a loan from some other source but obviously not from a bank which has a much superior risk assessment methodology.

Now the cost of MBA + living/other expense = 85k pounds. With no guarantee of any good future job prospects.

I am sure about some will get good jobs anyways. But what about the rest. What is promised is despair, uncertainty and insecurity at a very cheap price of $135k. Now that is a bargain , isn' it?

Sorry, if I sounded cynical or too critical here. I spoke (in confidence) to a number of Alumni recently. My impressions of those conversations is what I reflect here.

A good post, although the immigraiton restrictions don't apply to me for the moment and thanks for sharing the insights from the alums as I've noticed it is sometimes difficult to get a true reflection of the negative sides of an MBA programme since alums may be drilled into giving positive info only.

Having said that, I might be mistaken, but immigration rules are tightened around the world due to the outcries of local population and rising unemployment levels.

Although I don't follow this topic closely since it's irrelevant to me at the moment, it's indeed worrying that post-study work visas are eliminated as of April, 2012 and, therefore, MBA grads are really at the mercy of companies to sponsor them. Now, this has been long coming but it does further undermine the competitiveness and potential future ranking of UK MBA programmes including LBS.
https://www.immigrationmatters.co.uk/pos ... ished.html

Libraal,

You are right that visa issues are changing everywhere but in the UK one will have to leave the country almost immediately after completing the MBA whereas in the US one can stay for upto an year and work.

Guys,

Just came across this at bloomberg businessweek this morning. You can read the whole article on businessweek website.

MBA Journal: Farewell, London
By Isaac Iglesias on March 01, 2012 Tweet Facebook LinkedIn Google Plus 1 Comment
Related

MBA Jobs Outlook: Cloudy at Best

My exchange experience in London has come to an end and it is time to return to Shanghai for a final term at CEIBS. My time at London Business School has exceeded my expectations, though the economic woes in the ‘old continent’ never end and inevitably diminish the mood on campus. Despite the lack of optimism, I think the new colleagues I leave behind in Europe will do well. Their skills and experience have impressed me.

While clubs and the night life are intriguing, B-schoolers are earning degrees to get jobs. Things are more difficult than in the pre-crisis years, so LBS career-services staffers approach the MBA job hunt a little differently. They work hard but are also realistic about managing the expectations of students. They realize that personal networking is vital to landing a good job in a solid company. Despite the efforts, help, and professionalism offered by career services, some students in LBS are still struggling to find their dream job. I am sure they eventually will do so.

My colleagues on the other side of the world in Shanghai are much happier about their job prospects. CEIBS is welcoming more companies with exceptional reputations than in any prior year, and students are finding more and better-paid jobs than their predecessors did. In these ever-more-uncertain times, I would advise readers considering an MBA to be extra-careful about its timing, location, and economics.

Things in Europe, as we all know, still look pretty grim. My native Spain is struggling immensely, as are most of our neighbors. The U.K., while trying to protect the autonomy of the City of London, has caused a major stir in the already fragile unity of the EU. In this year of the Olympics and the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee, the mood in London has not been that cheerful. The eyes of the world are looking at Europe for hope of a better tomorrow. For the sake of my friends at LBS, I hope things improve. I will soon be starting my final term at CEIBS, but my eyes will be fixed on Europe.

In between journal entries, you can keep track of Isaac’s business school adventures at the Business Schools Facebook page. Follow the Bloomberg Businessweek B-Schools team on Twitter.

After five years in finance, Iglesias was ready for business school. He did not want the typical experience, and he planned to add a sixth language to his resume. He already speaks Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, and English. In an attempt to raise his international profile, he is in earning his MBA in China at CEIBS (CEIBS Full-Time MBA Profile), China Europe International Business School, where he is learning Chinese.[/quote]
Basically, it just reiterates what I posted earlier regarding the reality and spin at LBS.

Well, it is said (according to Mayan calculations) that the world is due to end in December 2012. So, you don't want to pay hefty GBP 57000, if you can enjoy your life and spend it now. Think twice.
Alternatively, you can go to CEIBS ( from the post above, it seems that their graduates will enjoy very bright employment prospects). If the world does not end then you will safe extra money and have an edge in getting a job.


You were reckless, man. Be careful next time. ))

Portal has not been updated yet, it shows 158 people still however we know that there were so new admits since last week. Let me check on Monday again.

Hi Arman,

I think wheretogo raises valid points. I got a feel of real picture when I spoke last week to a couple of alumni from Brazil and India. Both of them were planning to return to their home countries after not being able to find good jobs in the UK. They were trying but were not very hopeful. i also visited said business school, similar situation. Also, I think from next year things will be even more difficult.

Hi mymbaapp,

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to appear offensive, but isn't it a well known fact that it is difficult nowadays for aliens to get a job in the UK or in other European countries? Someone knowledgeable on this forum aptly noted that for aliens even after M7 schools getting a job in the US is close to impossible. The job market is not as good as many applicants wish it to be. That is a reality that has been known for a while. And this situation has nothing to do with LBS or any other school for that matter. I might be wrong, but I don't think that difficulty of getting a job in the UK or in any other country is a valid reason to give up on an MBA.

Hi guys,

can you please advise which schools offer full alumni status to LBS MBA exchange students.

I've created the topic at the link below which I shall update based on our collective input:
lbs-international-exchange-full-alumni-status-129955.html

Visa / Bank Loans

Thanks a lot guys. The posts above have been extremely insightful and an eye opener. It is indeed true why would anyone want to spend $130k+ on an MBA which cant even get you a good job at the end of it. Most students like me would be taking out loans to finance the course. I dont think the market is as bad in the US and foreigners have a much better chance at landing jobs in the US due to its vast market and easier visa regime. Specifically for LBS, its not such a strong a brand globally but will cost almost as much as Harvard to obtain an MBA. In the UK, at least Oxford/Cambridge cost half as much (when fees and living expense are included) and take half the time ( 9-12 months as compared to 18-24 months at LBS). Plus Oxford/Cambridge/INSEAD are far bigger brands globally including here in the US.
As for rankings, it should be taken with a pinch of salt. Doesn't it speak volumes when a so-called top MBA school is struggling to move its students into good jobs and there is a "lack of optimism" at the campus. The LBS student's account in Businessweek posted above is indeed a true reflection of things behind the smoke screen.
Actually, i am a wee bit surprised that it was this bad at LBS.

I know what I am doing..... enrolling at Chicago Booth. ( Actually, I might change my mind and and go to Shanghai as mentioned in the Businessweek article above ).

Hi ArnoldTW,

A couple of things, if you have the choice to go to Chicago/INSEAD, then I think in the current climate they indeed may be better value propositions. I don't think you'd get the same internationalism level in Chicago as you would in LBS or INSEAD, however, I get the impression that the brand may be more global and stronger.

With regards to Cambridge and Oxford, you're right with regards to the strength of the brand, however, for the people "in the know" LBS/INSEAD MBA would be much stronger than that of Oxford or Cambridge. See my post below on Cambridge.
ranks-and-clusterings-of-various-international-b-schools-78320-80.html#p1067839

With regards to employment. I think LBS MBA has enough strength to attract the employers internationally, but one may have to be prepared to go back to their home country or another country rather than stay in the UK. INSEAD graduates may have better prospects due to the Singapore campus.

On the local recruitement level, unless one speaks good French I can't see Insead in France giving better options than LBS in the UK. If we're talking about global recruitement by international companies, both INSEAD and LBS would give you similar opportunities as these bigger companies have the resources to arrange for the paperwork, etc.

By the way, I read somewhere that recruitment of the MBA graduates in the UK is not subject to the visa cap, hence, making it easier for the companies to recruit MBAs vs. non-MBA non-EU workers.

As for the Asian schools, yes, they are up and coming, but you need to take into account that the salary levels in the FT are PPP-adjusted and you can probably easily land a similar paying job to that of the CEIBS graduate having graduated from LBS (a counter argument would the bigger loans you'd have to take out for LBS).

Those of you interested, may read the source document from the UK Home Office for more info:
https://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... s/sop4.pdf

Another interesting source(s):
https://www.mbaworld.com/lobbyingactivity
https://www.migrationexpert.com/uk/visa/ ... applicants
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... OZmqIwqur4

Visa / Bank Loans

Libraal

Well, I would refer you to the two posts above by "wheretogo'. Those posts clearly mention the spin a school might want to give. The fact of the matter is all future Non-EU students will need an employer to sponsor them - cap or no cap or anything else is a matter of detail for companies, their HR and lawyers to sort out. And not all companies will have that kind of resource infrastructure. Refer to the posts by "wheretogo" above again. In any case, why would companies sponsor a foreign candidate to work in London when there is an extremely large pool of EU candidates of suitable calibre available locally. Lets not kid ourselves. Overtly or covertly, there will be always be preference for EU workers. As for small companies they would never bother with this kind of bureaucracy and hassle. Simply put, there does not exist a level playing field anymore for foreigners.

Reality is - It will be more difficult to recruit foreign MBA workers as compared to EU MBA workers.

What do you have to say about the mood of pessimism at campus as has been describes by an LBS student himself in businessweek (posted above). Students struggling to find good jobs. Career service trying to temper expectations rather get students into decent roles. The student author praying for his classmates whom he leaves behind at LBS. Ridiculous stuff.

Brand - What good is a brand if it cant fetch students that one thing for which they want to be associated with a particular brand. It seems LBS brand is particularly good at extracting money out of students and giving very little in return.

I wouldnt even bother comparing INSEAD with LBS. Suffice it to say INSEAD is in the league of Harvard and Stanford, and people "in the know" know it.

Internationalism - is good-to-have, not a must-have
Good Job - is a Must-have

Rankings - If the Economist can rank the unheard-of - University of Bath MBA as a top one, whats the big deal in FT ranking LBS MBA as top one.

Hey AnroldTW,

Yes, I see your point and I can sense some frustration and disillusionment in your post.

Depending on your circumstances and if you have admits from INSEAD and Chicago, I'd go for them. You should choose what's best for you. I myself have not yet decided, but my circumstances are different from yours, e.g. I don't have any immigration restrictions in the UK.

Best of luck!

Thanks Libraal,

I am leaning towards Chicago. Though I might consider INSEAD. Still to decide. What else are you considering? Good luck to you too.

Just read the said article in detail and have some observations.
https://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... ell-london

Every student will be emotionally invested and biased towards their own school. This does come through in the author's tone which although tries to pay due respect to LBS emphasizes the pros of CEIBS.

With regards to the grading system, I think it's a moot point whether the grades should be disclosed or not. I like academia and am a bit of a nerd I suppose, but I am going to try and follow the advice of my interviewer whose only regret was not spending enough time socialising. Dean's list, honours and distinction are good to have, but according to him, in the end of the day not many interviewers will examine your academic performance at the school under a magnifying glass! Plus, I believe other schools also practice non-disclosure of grades which fosters collaborative rather than competitive spirit.

To me the selling point of LBS is the clubs and this is what I'm really looking forward to. Now, you won't get the same amount of time to socialise and attend clubs in a 1 year programme - let's be realistic.

With regards to recruitement, I agree that one's prospects will be better of in a growing economy. So, in terms of location, it's not Europe. Perhaps, IMD in Switzerland is a good exception. States are in slightly better shape. Also, LBS students will obviously have to be more creative in finding jobs as financial services recruitement is probably not what it was in its heyday. Doesn't bother me too much cause I don't covet spending 18 hour days in an investment bank. Thank you buth thank you

I've got admit from IMD which was my top choice when I started this journey as I am on a more mature side, my interests lie in general management, personal development and my career interests are in industry.

But I need to travel some days back to the UK to settle my British immigration paperwork and have recently realised that it might not be possible with IMD's intensity and discipline culture. Having a phonecall with the programme director to see what can be done about it.

Other than that, my family circumstances tell me I should go with LBS. Also, what I do like about LBS (and things possibly missing or not available to the same extent at IMD) are:

exchange option
greater network size (IMD's class size is 90, although the responsiveness is excellent!)
proximity to headquarters of many companies
clubs (including MBA band - I'm going to try out for a lead singer (lol)
internships
no exchange rate risk (I'm based in the UK)

There seems to be a lot of sudden pessimism based on some vague reports of a 'damped mood', which seems strange. It's clearly true that the UK visa rules could have some impact for non-EU students, and that the financial crisis changed the recruiting landscape somewhat. That said, the most recent employment reports from both LBS and INSEAD show increases in employment and an increase in the number of jobs in finance, almost to pre-crisis levels. The large firms I've spoken with all recruit from LBS and INSEAD, while recruitment at Oxbridge is more spotty. I plan to remain in the EU for work, and in terms of return on investment I think LBS and INSEAD are both significantly ahead of the other schools.