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Re: Express-Verbal-Experience [#permalink]
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most apparent answer that I believe is GMAC wants to encash its established monopoly to generate more revenue from multiple attempts and failures of students in exam (pure business dirty tactic). Even GMAC recently got opportunity to publish such new SCs in OG15, but it didn't. It knows how to encash much value as an electronics company knows how to encash much from old products before releasing a new products. So definitely it is in its favor not to release new SCs. Moreover, who hates more revenue??


i totally agree with you on this . in fact i strongly believe that GMAC should publish the type of sc's that it is actually testing it at the moment .the questions that have been released are the discarded once which were there in the pool when the patten might not have changed !!
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Re: Express-Verbal-Experience [#permalink]
gmathopeful25 wrote:
PiyushK wrote:
there were no subject verb errors in answer choices or any apparent common error that we normally see in OG.


I find this to be quite astonishing. Can anyone confirm if SC has really changed this much? It actually makes sense that GMAC wouldn't want to let people game the test by using splits and memorizing a number of error types.


Hi, I took GMAT second time and I always had similar experience, as posted above, with SC questions. Further, I have no doubt on my SC skills, because my accuracy with all published SC problems is around 90%, and I am familiar with pattern and format of questions published by GMAT till date. Even I was surprised by pattern, format and splits in questions appearing in the exam. Focus of SCs has shifted to sentence structure, parallelism and modifiers and SC is not testing basic conventional concepts as subject-verb issue etc. But, it does not mean that one should stop studying all basic concepts that GMAT used to test because concepts are important for good business writing; though gmat is not testing basic stuff, learn it for your personal improvement.
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Re: Express-Verbal-Experience [#permalink]
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PiyushK wrote:
Hi, I took GMAT second time

Hello Piyush, if it's ok, can you let us know how much you scored, especially in verbal.

Quote:
Further, I have no doubt on my SC skills, because my accuracy with all published SC problems is around 90%, and I am familiar with pattern and format of questions published by GMAT till date

Indeed, reading your posts on the SC forum, I do get a sense that you have a pretty good handle of SC.

Quote:
Focus of SCs has shifted to sentence structure, parallelism and modifiers

Around a couple of years back, GMAC actually came up with this "official statement" (in one of the "outreaches" that they organize) that GMAT SC would progressively test "meaning" issues more and more. I believe you would be aware of this (and this was also the reason why GMAC also said that idioms would be tested lesser).

In light of that, it seems quite justified to me that parallelism and modifiers are now increasingly being tested on GMAT, since these two topics obviously occupy a lion's share, when it comes to testing students on meaning related sentences.

So, my question is: Why did it surprise you? Or may be it didn't surprise you and you are just informing us.
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Re: Express-Verbal-Experience [#permalink]
EducationAisle wrote:
So, my question is: Why did it surprise you? Or may be it didn't surprise you and you are just informing us.


It did not surprise me, because I appeared for second time, and I was much prepared to face it.

EducationAisle wrote:
GMAC actually came up with this "official statement" (in one of the "outreaches" that they organize) that GMAT SC would progressively test "meaning" issues more and more.


Yes, it is an old story, and almost everyone knows this fact. Problem is not this shift that is toward meaning based questions by increasing proportion of modifiers or parallelism based question; Problem is the sentence structure and splits in answer choices. Sentences were convoluted and modifiers and parallelism were encapsulated in such convoluted sentence structures. Overall, in 30% problems, I found it difficult to understand the structure of the sentence and to decipher the meaning.

Though it may sound justified that GMAT is testing more on meaning, we need problems to practice to hit that frequency. In fact, meaning is the soul of SC, so even test prep companies are not singing any new song; they just want to present existing problems in the light of "meaning" and do not want to write problems on the lines that GMAT is testing actually. "GMAT is testing meaning" is a vague answer, because it can cover anything; probably, problem is that people are not expressing the symptoms correctly or they are not asking right question for the right treatment.
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Hello Piyush, since you mentioned that your accuracy level in SC is generally 90% upwards, and assuming that you were hitting that accuracy level in the exam, that might explain why you were being tested with questions "difficult to understand and decipher the meaning".

On a separate point, I don't believe "GMAT is testing meaning" is vague answer. I am sure you are as aware of this as anyone, that parallelism and modifiers are indeed the two most potent means to genuinely affect the meaning.
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Re: Express-Verbal-Experience [#permalink]
EducationAisle wrote:
Hello Piyush, since you mentioned that your accuracy level in SC is generally 90% upwards, and assuming that you were hitting that accuracy level in the exam, that might explain why you were being tested with questions "difficult to understand and decipher the meaning".

On a separate point, I don't believe "GMAT is testing meaning" is vague answer. I am sure you are as aware of this as anyone, that parallelism and modifiers are indeed the two most potent means to genuinely affect the meaning.


I can not reproduce the questions that I attempted, but I can confirm you that my first question was an SC that had an indecipherable sentence structure and I spent 4 min in decoding its meaning and picking my answer. Further, 90% accuracy in published SC material is not a true indicator of performance in actual GMAT.

I will re-appear for GMAT again in coming days, and work on RC and CR to fine tune my score to my expected score in verbal.
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Not sure what to say, but I do not completely agree with you, I gave the GMAT back in July and did not face this problem, there were subject verb errors, counting errors, parallelism errors. All of them ...

And I feel that 90% accuracy on the official problems is actually a good indicator of success.
I myself had close to 90%accuracy in the official problems. I solved the guides compiled by Souvik.

But yes, one thing I agree to ... we should not leave RC and CR unattended and should give them due attention.
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Re: Express-Verbal-Experience [#permalink]
ankurgupta03 wrote:
Not sure what to say, but I do not completely agree with you, I gave the GMAT back in July and did not face this problem, there were subject verb errors, counting errors, parallelism errors. All of them ...

And I feel that 90% accuracy on the official problems is actually a good indicator of success.
I myself had close to 90%accuracy in the official problems. I solved the guides compiled by Souvik.

But yes, one thing I agree to ... we should not leave RC and CR unattended and should give them due attention.


Then, I think you are genius. Good for you.
Read this thread: real-gmat-sc-experience-136558.html
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Re: Express-Verbal-Experience [#permalink]
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PiyushK wrote:
I recently took my GMAT, and as I promised to few fellow gmatclub members, I am sharing my express-experience and -advise for verbal (especially SC).

For SC only concept that helped me allot during exams was parallelism; there were no subject verb errors in answer choices or any apparent common error that we normally see in OG. Therefore, whatever I noted in my diaries since last 1.5 year (various rules or concepts) appeared obsolete during exam (No concept helped me in identifying any answer, not even any multi-step process or Ron's gyan). I think GMAT decided to explore zones beyond conventional concepts and more on sentence structure; GMAT is presenting sentences written in structures that we do not normally see (see, use or read in academic books). Further, I remember that in one question it used "which" as restrictive modifier and other choices were so bad that it literally forced :beat me to go with "no comma+which" option; usually we say "without comma which" is wrong on GMAT land, but in exam, GMAT crossed that rule as well. Most of the questions were governed by parallelism or modifier rules encapsulated in weird sentence structures (structures, not even published in any version of OG).

Also, I noted that first option in 30% SC problems were (complete train wreck :roof ) so weird that it was difficult for me to understand what sentence was trying to convey: there were splits between that and he; and which (relative pronoun) and and (coordinating conjunction). Usually we see splits of same level or category, but in current SC sentences splits are completely nonsensical as somebody randomly threw something in fill in the blank. I think some new agency is writing GMAT SC problems, one who completely ignoring conventional splits in answer choices.

Following is my self created sentence, but I saw a sentence in which similar underlined part was present in every choice; usually we say how can a term can include a object and we are used to of seeing many examples in guide portraying examples in different sense that we feel such usage is generally incorrect, but such expression is not wrong.

the term "super computer" may include computer works on xyz os or computers work on pqr os.

So just don't limit your thinking to rules. GMAT SC is taking advantage of what we know, by throwing parallel correct sentences (acceptable meaning) which we don't know, to confuse us. Try to choose best out of worst choices, and in exam, with free mind you can manage to eliminate all train wreck sentences.

Further, I would add; Do not waste time in reading forums, writing rules or practicing old problems published by GMAT; just solve GMATPrep SCs/ Exam Pack SCs and Question Pack SCs, and don't even buy OG for SC. GMATPrep SCs adequately covers parallelism rules that GMAT is testing, so only concentrate on that part (learn how parallelism is being tested) "either ... or ...." / not only ... but also... etc kinds. But, definitely be prepared to get such parallelism encapsulated in weird sentence structure (with many commas + or adverbs in between) .

I collected following sentence structures from nytime.com, which may resemble to what I believe I saw in exam.
(I)
modifier........................> as a X, that blah blah ..... as .......blah.......
modifier........................> as a X, he blah that blah more than...... blah blah.........
(II)
.............. blah blah blah....., adverb, ...... blah blah ..........., or adverb, blahh...........

I would say that GMAT is giving additional advantage to natives and to those who read allot from JK Rolling's HP, Lords of the rings to Shakespeare's work.

So question comes, how one can improve score ? Here is good news: GMAT has not modified pattern of CR and RC, and thus by shifting focus from SC to these two areas one can definitely improve one's score. Verbal CR and RC is all about temperament and more about how you do active reading under time pressure and that's the only thing on which one should work to improve score. For, SC trust your ears and instinct + parallelism + modifier rules and leave everything on God :gl.

Further, question comes why GMAC is not publishing these new problems? most apparent answer that I believe is GMAC wants to encash its established monopoly to generate more revenue from multiple attempts and failures of students in exam (pure business dirty tactic). Even GMAC recently got opportunity to publish such new SCs in OG15, but it didn't. It knows how to encash much value as an electronics company knows how to encash much from old products before releasing a new products. So definitely it is in its favor not to release new SCs. Moreover, who hates more revenue??

At the end again, I would say don't waste time on SC, instead work on CR and RC, and read allot, because published material for SC is obsolete, and we do not know exactly what to prepare. Give as many mocks as possible to improve your reading under time pressure.

Thanks for reading.



Hi Piyush...

I know what you mean..precisely the feeling that I had when I took the exam in Aug-14...I had this weird feeling on Sentence correction and we have discussed this all before(offline) that may be people are spending too much time on SC (Like I did) and not focussing on CR and RC...

I had the feeling on Sentence correction that the sentences were too convoluted for you to make sense in under 1min 30 sec...it was not happening and I did fairly well otherwise on SC....

What we take away from your experience is that focus on Gmatprep questions on SC and start focussing on CR and RC questions...
You know it well that even on GMAT Club there has been more active discussions on SC forum compared to RC and CR ones....

It may sound strange but may be with re-takers this might be a problem because we are thinking as per the rules and what is being tested in GMAT sometimes not able to look beyond...


"Another thing I noticed which was told to me by Gmat prep company tutor is that usually it is not good idea to take the test in this period as GMAC wants to maintain bell curve (score range) and it is bit more difficult to score if you schedule your tests in later part of the year..."

Can experts comment on this bit..
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Re: Express-Verbal-Experience [#permalink]
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PiyushK wrote:
Then, I think you are genius. Good for you.
Read this thread: real-gmat-sc-experience-136558.html


Dude first thing first, that thread was started in 2012. I do not agree with anyone, that since 2012, GMAT has changed its SC format.

Second.... you gotta read this
real-gmat-sc-experience-136558.html#p1194194
This is from the same thread that you have suggested me to read.

Third, do not behave like a disgruntled student. Learn where did you go wrong and how to solve the problems.

Last, I am no genius, I learned how to solve SC the hard way and most importantly via official questions only

P.S. Can you let me know your score in verbal?

Regards,
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Re: Express-Verbal-Experience [#permalink]
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PiyushK wrote:
I will re-appear for GMAT again in coming days, and work on RC and CR to fine tune my score to my expected score in verbal.

Sorry since this thread is about SC, couldn't help point out the classic redundancy here: re-appear and again.

Piyush, believe me, most of us do understand your angst. However, for every claim that actual GMAT SC is significantly different from GMATPrep/official GMAT questions, there are many claims that the performance on GMATPrep/official GMAT questions does reflect your likely performance on the actual exam. I am a part of a coaching establishment myself, and I can vouch that barring few cases, performance on GMATPrep is indeed a reasonably good indicator of one's performance on the actual exam.

Also, you mention that the very first question in SC "had an indecipherable sentence structure". As you are aware, the first question starts with a moderate difficulty level (around 560 GMAT level, I think). So, by stating that the first question itself was very tough, we are actually challenging the entire computer adaptive algorithm of GMAT. Having said that, GMAC's way of assigning difficulty level to a question is a statistical exercise (based upon the percentage of people who answer a question correctly), and so, the question that seemed easy to most people might seem tough to you, and vice-versa.
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Occasionally i hear about such experiences and I have seen people get 40 on the GMAT Prep and then a 20 on the test. In these situations and conditions you should retake. Sometimes GMAC goes overboard and sometimes you do get a lot of experimental questions that are just weird or wrong (we have had a user who has gotten a question that was wrong as her first one. She challenged GMAC on it and they admitted it). Things like that happen very rarely but they happen. Experimental questions can really mess you up.

Also, sometimes SC's make no sense because of how they are written (if the first part is underlined) and that throws me off often. That is usually an indicator of a higher level and difficulty, so I am surprised that you did not get the score you wanted.

At the end of the day, feeling failure on the GMAT is normal. Since it is an adaptive test, you fail at your highest level of ability and always feel like you are struggling no matter what your level is. It is normal. I would not think too much about the whole test and take it question by question when you take it the next time.
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Took the test today and got V42

From what I can remember, there were still splits and several problems that made use of parallelism. I don't know what the exams were like historically but OG and Gmatprep SC questions are still the best for preparation!
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Re: Express-Verbal-Experience [#permalink]
I had a very interesting experience today.. and it was my 2nd GMAT in 3 months time...

1st time i gave my GMAT 3 months , i did encounter weird sentences, as mentioned in the posts above.. there was questions on S-V errors.. all were tests on parallelisms and modifiers. and there were punctuations ( : and - ) in between all of them... I even found CR very very tough..infact i had no clue on couple of questions
I ended up with a V32 then.

Today, when i gave my GMAT.. i did not encounter any such weird sentence(maybe i was better prepared this time).. there were questions on S-V errors, use of it/they, could/would/will and on meanings, but no tough sentences.. and I did not get a RC till 6th question.... even the CR questions were fairly easy and straightforward and I did not get a single Boldface CR( while i got two boldface CR, in my previous attempt).. only hiccup was the RC( where i have abstract topics like philosophy and art etc)..
Overall, i thought it was fairly straightforward and nothing like last time... Score -37

Now comes the interesting part.. in the first attempt my math score was 49 types and this time my Math score fell to around 47.
Do you think there is a correlation between your math score and the questions you get in verbal( somehow both are inter linked)...

I would assume that I kept getting easy Verbal questions(600 types questions), but as i went up the verbal scoring chain(towards higher 600s)..wasn't I supposed to get few complex sentences(but I didn't)... this got me confused even more :|
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Express-Verbal-Experience [#permalink]
ankurgupta03 wrote:
Not sure what to say, but I do not completely agree with you, I gave the GMAT back in July and did not face this problem, there were subject verb errors, counting errors, parallelism errors. All of them ...

And I feel that 90% accuracy on the official problems is actually a good indicator of success.
I myself had close to 90%accuracy in the official problems. I solved the guides compiled by Souvik.

But yes, one thing I agree to ... we should not leave RC and CR unattended and should give them due attention.


Hi Ankur,

I also had a similar experience on my 2 attempts ( scored V32 & V33). My accuracy on the official questions has been consistently 90% but I was not able to clearly comprehend the meaning on the original choice of many SC questions on the actual test. I do not want to debate whether GMAT is changing patterns or the official questions are representative or not. I would like to know what could be the potential reasons why we were not able to comprehend the meaning or where exactly we might be faltering. I have a GMAT in 2 weeks time. I would really appreciate if you could provide some pointers on this.
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I didn't see much of a difference honestly...

However, I saw comment today that I wish I had seen a long time ago...it basically said that if you remember to do one thing during the gmat, make sure it is to concentrate with all your might on the those last 5 verbal questions. By that point you're mentally and physically exhausted....in addition to anxious, nervous, impatient, etc etc. It's the home stretch and so easy to make a mad dash to the finish line just to see your score pop up on the screen. I know that I blew through those last 5 like they were bonus questions or something.....
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Re: Express-Verbal-Experience [#permalink]
PiyushK wrote:
I recently took my GMAT, and as I promised to few fellow gmatclub members, I am sharing my express-experience and -advise for verbal (especially SC).

For SC only concept that helped me allot during exams was parallelism; there were no subject verb errors in answer choices or any apparent common error that we normally see in OG. Therefore, whatever I noted in my diaries since last 1.5 year (various rules or concepts) appeared obsolete during exam (No concept helped me in identifying any answer, not even any multi-step process or Ron's gyan). I think GMAT decided to explore zones beyond conventional concepts and more on sentence structure; GMAT is presenting sentences written in structures that we do not normally see (see, use or read in academic books). Further, I remember that in one question it used "which" as restrictive modifier and other choices were so bad that it literally forced :beat me to go with "no comma+which" option; usually we say "without comma which" is wrong on GMAT land, but in exam, GMAT crossed that rule as well. Most of the questions were governed by parallelism or modifier rules encapsulated in weird sentence structures (structures, not even published in any version of OG).

For your information one of the official explanation in OG13 states below:
some writers follow the convention that which can only be used for non restrictive clauses, but insistence on this rule is controversial.


Also, I noted that first option in 30% SC problems were (complete train wreck :roof ) so weird that it was difficult for me to understand what sentence was trying to convey: there were splits between that and he; and which (relative pronoun) and and (coordinating conjunction). Usually we see splits of same level or category, but in current SC sentences splits are completely nonsensical as somebody randomly threw something in fill in the blank. I think some new agency is writing GMAT SC problems, one who completely ignoring conventional splits in answer choices.

GMAT is a no formula game be it quant or verbal, it is pretty straight forward. The answers to questions are purely governed by LOGIC and not rules or splits. As I explained you after my last attempt, meaning is supreme in SC without inferring that you will land up in timing issues and looking for splits won't help.

Following is my self created sentence, but I saw a sentence in which similar underlined part was present in every choice; usually we say how can a term can include a object and we are used to of seeing many examples in guide portraying examples in different sense that we feel such usage is generally incorrect, but such expression is not wrong.

the term "super computer" may include computer works on xyz os or computers work on pqr os.

So just don't limit your thinking to rules. GMAT SC is taking advantage of what we know, by throwing parallel correct sentences (acceptable meaning) which we don't know, to confuse us. Try to choose best out of worst choices, and in exam, with free mind you can manage to eliminate all train wreck sentences.

Further, I would add; Do not waste time in reading forums, writing rules or practicing old problems published by GMAT; just solve GMATPrep SCs/ Exam Pack SCs and Question Pack SCs, and don't even buy OG for SC. GMATPrep SCs adequately covers parallelism rules that GMAT is testing, so only concentrate on that part (learn how parallelism is being tested) "either ... or ...." / not only ... but also... etc kinds. But, definitely be prepared to get such parallelism encapsulated in weird sentence structure (with many commas + or adverbs in between) .

I collected following sentence structures from nytime.com, which may resemble to what I believe I saw in exam.
(I)
modifier........................> as a X, that blah blah ..... as .......blah.......
modifier........................> as a X, he blah that blah more than...... blah blah.........
(II)
.............. blah blah blah....., adverb, ...... blah blah ..........., or adverb, blahh...........

I would say that GMAT is giving additional advantage to natives and to those who read allot from JK Rolling's HP, Lords of the rings to Shakespeare's work.
I don't think there is an advantage since a lot of non-natives have done well in the past.

So question comes, how one can improve score ? Here is good news: GMAT has not modified pattern of CR and RC, and thus by shifting focus from SC to these two areas one can definitely improve one's score. Verbal CR and RC is all about temperament and more about how you do active reading under time pressure and that's the only thing on which one should work to improve score. For, SC trust your ears and instinct + parallelism + modifier rules and leave everything on God :gl.

Further, question comes why GMAC is not publishing these new problems? most apparent answer that I believe is GMAC wants to encash its established monopoly to generate more revenue from multiple attempts and failures of students in exam (pure business dirty tactic). Even GMAC recently got opportunity to publish such new SCs in OG15, but it didn't. It knows how to encash much value as an electronics company knows how to encash much from old products before releasing new products. So definitely it is in its favor not to release new SCs. Moreover, who hates more revenue??

At the end again, I would say don't waste time on SC, instead work on CR and RC, and read allot, because published material for SC is obsolete, and we do not know exactly what to prepare. Give as many mocks as possible to improve your reading under time pressure.

Thanks for reading.


My responses in red. Please don't feel offensive but these are facts.
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