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Pronoun-Nightmare

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Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 02 Nov 2008, 21:20
Hi frends,

I view two sentence from Og as my confusal, posting here for your help!

1. Dialogistic Test 42

Public universities can collect student activity fees even if they have objections to particular activies and the groups that are given to money are chosen without regard to their views

OG says: (Referent for "they" is "student activity fees"), for me, "they" can also refer to "universities", so "they" is ambiguous.

but

2. Verbal Review -19

While depressed property values can hurt some large investors, they are potentially devastating for homeowners, whose equity-in many cases representing a life’s savings-can plunge or even disappear.

OG says "This sentence is correct and concise."They" clearly refers to "property values"

Do you mind answering my question why in 2, "they" does not refer to "investors"?

Many thanks!
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 02 Nov 2008, 21:28
I agree that your example (1) is ambiguous though.

Option (2) is clearer for two reasons:
a) The sentence structure starting with "While" - so we know to expect a second half of the statement.
b) If the pharse was referring to "some large investors", it should start with "who", for example "who have huge sums of money tied up in property, "
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 02 Nov 2008, 23:30
Thanks Prince13

Friends one more questiion,

Verbal Review 53.

"two upstate New York counties owed restitution to three tribes of Oneida Indians because of their unlawful seizure of their ancestral lands in the eighteenth century."

OG did not claim about the red "their", which is understood to refer to "countries", but the blue "their", saying "the pronoun reference the blue "their" is ambiguous.

Friends, why are the red and the blue different? the red is clear and therefore correct, but the blue is ambiguous and therefore incorrect?

Many thanks
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 03 Nov 2008, 04:15
I have another question in diagnostic test question no. 42 which Sondenso has quoted above:

In this question, option A is different from the original sentence. Is this possible in GMAT?
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 03 Nov 2008, 05:53
vscid wrote:
I have another question in diagnostic test question no. 42 which Sondenso has quoted above:

In this question, option A is different from the original sentence. Is this possible in GMAT?


No. It must be a misprint. The option A is the same as the underlined statement ALWAYS.
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 03 Nov 2008, 08:22
sondenso wrote:
"two upstate New York counties owed restitution to three tribes of Oneida Indians because of their unlawful seizure of their ancestral lands in the eighteenth century."

I would say that both of the "their" are ambiguous though. What is the source of this question?

Wouldn't this be better?: "two upstate New York counties owed restitution to three tries of Oneida Indians because of the counties' unlawful seizure of the Indians' ancestral lands in the eighteenth century"
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 03 Nov 2008, 09:42
Hi Guys,
I am back after a very long time, did not take gmat .... with do in Dec or Jan 09.

Anways,
"Public universities can collect student activity fees even if they have objections to particular activies and the groups that are given to money are chosen without regard to their views".

they = subject = universities
activity fees = object = should be reffered as those.
As it is the same clause.

Your Q would have been correct in-case there were a conjuction of clauses, for ex:
While public universities can collect student activity fees, they have ....
Now we are try to join two clause . The "they" is now ambiguos !

But I agree - Pronouns are nightmare :P
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 03 Nov 2008, 17:49
Thanks guys!

@Prince13,
1.The red "their" is correct since it is not in the underlined part of the sentence.
2. the source is Verbal Review 53

huntgmat wrote:
they = subject = universities
activity fees = object = should be reffered as those.
As it is the same clause.


@huntgmat: I would challenge your reasoning by another question also from Verbal Review 85:

Any medical test will sometimes fail to detect a condition when it is present and indicate that it is presentwhen it is not

Anh the OG says "In this sentence the pronoun it does not always refer to condition, and, for the sake of clarity and correctness, it must.

That means, "it" here does not refer to "medical test". It is nightmare! :-D

Friends, I am calling for all the expert tips on PRONOUNS!
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 03 Nov 2008, 18:44
huntgmat wrote:
Hi Guys,
I am back after a very long time, did not take gmat .... with do in Dec or Jan 09.

Anways,
"Public universities can collect student activity fees even if they have objections to particular activies and the groups that are given to money are chosen without regard to their views".

they = subject = universities
activity fees = object = should be reffered as those.
As it is the same clause.

Your Q would have been correct in-case there were a conjuction of clauses, for ex:
While public universities can collect student activity fees, they have ....
Now we are try to join two clause . The "they" is now ambiguos !

But I agree - Pronouns are nightmare :P


Great analysis. Just one small correction.. object form of they is them. Those is the plural form of that.
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 03 Nov 2008, 20:05
sondenso wrote:
Hi frends,

I view two sentence from Og as my confusal, posting here for your help!

1. Dialogistic Test 42

Public universities can collect student activity fees even if they have objections to particular activies and the groups that are given to money are chosen without regard to their views

OG says: (Referent for "they" is "student activity fees"), for me, "they" can also refer to "universities", so "they" is ambiguous.
but

2. Verbal Review -19

While depressed property values can hurt some large investors, they are potentially devastating for homeowners, whose equity-in many cases representing a life’s savings-can plunge or even disappear.

OG says "This sentence is correct and concise."They" clearly refers to "property values"

Do you mind answering my question why in 2, "they" does not refer to "investors"?

Many thanks!



Answer to both questions is based on following thump rule
If in the previous clause there is more than one noun that agrees with the pronoun, the pronoun will usually refer to the subject
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 03 Nov 2008, 20:17
rprabhu2001 wrote:
If in the previous clause there is more than one noun that agrees with the pronoun, the pronoun will usually refer to the subject


Verbal Review 85

Any medical test will sometimes fail to detect a condition when it is present and indicate that it is present when it is not

the three uses of the pronoun "it" refer clearly to condition

Pronoun "it" does not refer to the subject "test"
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 03 Nov 2008, 20:23
sondenso wrote:
Verbal Review 53.

"two upstate New York counties owed restitution to three tribes of Oneida Indians because of their unlawful seizure of their ancestral lands in the eighteenth century."

OG did not claim about the red "their", which is understood to refer to "countries", but the blue "their", saying "the pronoun reference the blue "their" is ambiguous.

Friends, why are the red and the blue different? the red is clear and therefore correct, but the blue is ambiguous and therefore incorrect?

Many thanks

By the way, do you have the full question with 5 options? It would be interesting to see. Sorry I don't know what Verbal Review 53 is? IS there a link where I can go and see it, thanks
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 04 Nov 2008, 03:52
arorag wrote:
sondenso wrote:
Hi frends,

I view two sentence from Og as my confusal, posting here for your help!

1. Dialogistic Test 42

Public universities can collect student activity fees even if they have objections to particular activies and the groups that are given to money are chosen without regard to their views

OG says: (Referent for "they" is "student activity fees"), for me, "they" can also refer to "universities", so "they" is ambiguous.
but

2. Verbal Review -19

While depressed property values can hurt some large investors, they are potentially devastating for homeowners, whose equity-in many cases representing a life’s savings-can plunge or even disappear.

OG says "This sentence is correct and concise."They" clearly refers to "property values"

Do you mind answering my question why in 2, "they" does not refer to "investors"?

Many thanks!



Answer to both questions is based on following thump rule
If in the previous clause there is more than one noun that agrees with the pronoun, the pronoun will usually refer to the subject


I do not understand. So are you saying that in diagnostic q42 (OG), the 'their' in the correct answer D, is referring to the subject ' public universities' .
Also, 'groups given money' : is that grammatically correct?
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 05 Nov 2008, 20:17
vscid wrote:
arorag wrote:
sondenso wrote:
Hi frends,

I view two sentence from Og as my confusal, posting here for your help!

1. Dialogistic Test 42

Public universities can collect student activity fees even if they have objections to particular activies and the groups that are given to money are chosen without regard to their views

OG says: (Referent for "they" is "student activity fees"), for me, "they" can also refer to "universities", so "they" is ambiguous.
but

2. Verbal Review -19

While depressed property values can hurt some large investors, they are potentially devastating for homeowners, whose equity-in many cases representing a life’s savings-can plunge or even disappear.

OG says "This sentence is correct and concise."They" clearly refers to "property values"

Do you mind answering my question why in 2, "they" does not refer to "investors"?

Many thanks!



Answer to both questions is based on following thump rule
If in the previous clause there is more than one noun that agrees with the pronoun, the pronoun will usually refer to the subject


I do not understand. So are you saying that in diagnostic q42 (OG), the 'their' in the correct answer D, is referring to the subject ' public universities' .
Also, 'groups given money' : is that grammatically correct?



Sorry for the late reply didn't have internet access

Lets go one by one
q.42 Here it is more do with meaning sentance, actual meaning is--student have objection so when you say they---it can refer students or something elase but there where no mention of student before the use of they.... So it is more do with CLARITY

Q19 While depressed property values ( SUB) can hurt some large investors (Object),they are potentially They can be used for peoperty values or large investor But given option it pronoun, They, will always to with subject sentence

For other question
Any medical test will sometimes fail to detect a condition when it is present and indicate that it is presentwhen it is not --when you using when then it always qualified its previous word or clause, and this case it is condition--singular one
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 06 Nov 2008, 00:12
arorag wrote:
when you using when then it always qualified its previous word or clause, and this case it is condition--singular one


Arorag, thank you for your effort to explain.

Unfortunately, OG say: "the pronoun [color=#FF0000]it does not always refer to condition, and, for the sake of clarity and correctness. it must. Detect a condition when it is present is correct[/color]"

arorag wrote:
Q19 While depressed property values ( SUB) can hurt some large investors (Object),they are potentially They can be used for peoperty values or large investor But given option it pronoun, They, will always to with subject sentence


Sorry for my my question as confusal

ManhattanSC:

Eva exercised daily with Jasmine so that SHE would stay in good shape.

And explain: "She" seems to be referring to Jasmine but it also could be refering to Eva. It means, "she" does not only refer to subject "Eva". Oach

HELP! HELP! HELP!
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 06 Nov 2008, 00:33
sondenso wrote:
Hi frends,

I view two sentence from Og as my confusal, posting here for your help!

1. Dialogistic Test 42

Public universities can collect student activity fees even if they have objections to particular activies and the groups that are given to money are chosen without regard to their views

OG says: (Referent for "they" is "student activity fees"), for me, "they" can also refer to "universities", so "they" is ambiguous.

but

2. Verbal Review -19

While depressed property values can hurt some large investors, they are potentially devastating for homeowners, whose equity-in many cases representing a life’s savings-can plunge or even disappear.

OG says "This sentence is correct and concise."They" clearly refers to "property values"

Do you mind answering my question why in 2, "they" does not refer to "investors"?

Many thanks!


Here is my take:
1) they has to logically refer to "public universities" and not "activity fees" because activity fees can not have objections

2) they refers to " depressed property values" because of the context of the rest of the sentence that isnt underlined. Look what happens when we swap "they" with large investors and with depressed property values

While depressed property values can hurt some large investors, depressed property values are potentially devastating for homeowners, whose equity-in many cases represent a life’s savings-can plunge or even disappear. .....makes sense

While depressed property values can hurt some large investors, large investors are potentially devastating for homeowners, whose equity-in many cases represent a life’s savings-can plunge or even disappear. .....doesnt make sense
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Re: Pronoun-Nightmare [#permalink] New post 06 Nov 2008, 00:39
If two clauses are joined using a conjunction, the structural must be parallel. Thus, in the following example, "while" is a conjunction and hence they references the subject of the previous clause correctly.

While depressed property values can hurt some large investors, they are potentially devastating for homeowners, whose equity-in many cases representing a life’s savings-can plunge or even disappear.

However, when one clause is the sub-ordinate clause of the the main clause, then depending upon the context and placement, the pronoun may be correctly referencing the noun.

For example, in "Eva exercised daily with Jasmine so that SHE would stay in good shape." "she" has ambiguous referent as it is used in a sub-ordinate clause.
Re: Pronoun-Nightmare   [#permalink] 06 Nov 2008, 00:39
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