Find all School-related info fast with the new School-Specific MBA Forum

It is currently 18 Apr 2014, 08:02

Close

GMAT Club Daily Prep

Thank you for using the timer - this advanced tool can estimate your performance and suggest more practice questions. We have subscribed you to Daily Prep Questions via email.

Customized
for You

we will pick new questions that match your level based on your Timer History

Track
Your Progress

every week, we’ll send you an estimated GMAT score based on your performance

Practice
Pays

we will pick new questions that match your level based on your Timer History

Not interested in getting valuable practice questions and articles delivered to your email? No problem, unsubscribe here.

Events & Promotions

Events & Promotions in June
Open Detailed Calendar

Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers

  Question banks Downloads My Bookmarks Reviews Important topics  
Author Message
Intern
Intern
Joined: 19 Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Location: United States
Concentration: Operations, Entrepreneurship
Schools: INSEAD '14
WE: Consulting (Manufacturing)
Followers: 0

Kudos [?]: 7 [0], given: 8

Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink] New post 29 Apr 2013, 10:10
Hello friends,

I have a specific question related to modifiers.
Need some help in understanding more about the relative pronoun "THAT" in the below construction.

Neither first lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press,and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of the historic program in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what the two women wereresponsible for.

My question is can that refer to a list? (In this case public employment, relief and social security)??
Is this sort of construction acceptable on the GMAT?


Also when can a comma precede a THAT in a sentence?
example - "Large manufacturing companies such as ferrari, THAT"

Please help..

Thanks,
Chechaxo
Kaplan Promo CodeKnewton GMAT Discount CodesVeritas Prep GMAT Discount Codes
Manager
Manager
User avatar
Joined: 12 Dec 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Poland
Followers: 3

Kudos [?]: 77 [0], given: 67

Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink] New post 29 Apr 2013, 22:09
chechaxo wrote:
Hello friends,

I have a specific question related to modifiers.
Need some help in understanding more about the relative pronoun "THAT" in the below construction.

Neither first lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press,and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of the historic program in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what the two women wereresponsible for.

My question is can that refer to a list? (In this case public employment, relief and social security)??
Is this sort of construction acceptable on the GMAT?


Also when can a comma precede a THAT in a sentence?
example - "Large manufacturing companies such as ferrari, THAT"

Please help..

Thanks,
Chechaxo



As to your first question, I am curious the answer myself. This is related: click (answer of Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:28 am).

As to your second question: Comma can precede a "that", when the "that" opens a non-essential modifier (NEM). The entire NEM should be flanked by commas, just as an essential modifier (EM) must not be. However, Manhattan SC advises that GMAC will use "that" for essential, and "which" for non-essential modifiers in most cases. Nevertheless, the use of commas in NEM/EM is superior to the choice between "that" and "which", as the latter is disputable.
_________________

If I answered your question with this post, use the motivating power of kudos!

Manhattan GMAT Instructor
User avatar
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 403
Followers: 178

Kudos [?]: 241 [0], given: 4

Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink] New post 30 Apr 2013, 05:51
Expert's post
chechaxo wrote:
Hello friends,

I have a specific question related to modifiers.
Need some help in understanding more about the relative pronoun "THAT" in the below construction.

Neither first lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press,and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of the historic program in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what the two women wereresponsible for.

My question is can that refer to a list? (In this case public employment, relief and social security)??
Is this sort of construction acceptable on the GMAT?


Also when can a comma precede a THAT in a sentence?
example - "Large manufacturing companies such as ferrari, THAT"

Please help..

Thanks,
Chechaxo


Looking at the question above, the correct answer does not use that: "Neither first lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press,and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible." The phrase "For which" (in place of that) above refers to the historic programs and the prepositional phrase "in public employment, relief and social security" provides additional detail on the historic programs.

About the comma preceding 'that', your example includes a non-essential phrase, which should be set off by commas, before that. It should read - "Large manufacturing companies, such as Ferrari, that..." In that case, they commas are related to the non-essential phrase, not that.

KW
_________________


Kyle Widdison | Manhattan GMAT Instructor | Utah


Manhattan GMAT Discount | Manhattan GMAT Course Reviews | View Instructor Profile



Intern
Intern
Joined: 19 Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Location: United States
Concentration: Operations, Entrepreneurship
Schools: INSEAD '14
WE: Consulting (Manufacturing)
Followers: 0

Kudos [?]: 7 [0], given: 8

Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink] New post 30 Apr 2013, 07:38
Thanks HumptyDumpty and KyleWiddison,

I am clear about my second question on the use of " Comma + That".
HumptyDumpty, from what i learn from Kyles response the comma structure before the that refers to the NEM.

For example in the sentence - "one will encounter more women wearing pants than wearing skirts, yet it was only two or three generations ago, in 1945, that actress Marlene Dietrich was forced by police to leave Paris for daring to wear

- that modifies generations ago while the "," before the that intends to demarcate the NEM "in 1985".

KyleWiddison, Please correct me if i am wrong.

Kylewiddson, HumptyDumpty,
However i am not still clear on whether "that" can refer to a list.
Please can you clarify with an example?


Thanks,
Chechaxo
Intern
Intern
Joined: 19 Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Location: United States
Concentration: Operations, Entrepreneurship
Schools: INSEAD '14
WE: Consulting (Manufacturing)
Followers: 0

Kudos [?]: 7 [0], given: 8

Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink] New post 30 Apr 2013, 07:43
Hello again!

During the course of my preparation many a times, I came across the structures -"For Which", "In Which", "From Which"....

My question - Just like "WHICH", do "FOR WHICH", "IN WHICH" and "FROM WHICH" have to modify the NOUN immediately preceding these constructions?

Please, can someone explain with an example?

Thanks in Advance.
Chechaxo
Manhattan GMAT Instructor
User avatar
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 403
Followers: 178

Kudos [?]: 241 [0], given: 4

Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink] New post 30 Apr 2013, 08:26
Expert's post
chechaxo wrote:
Thanks HumptyDumpty and KyleWiddison,

I am clear about my second question on the use of " Comma + That".
HumptyDumpty, from what i learn from Kyles response the comma structure before the that refers to the NEM.

For example in the sentence - "one will encounter more women wearing pants than wearing skirts, yet it was only two or three generations ago, in 1945, that actress Marlene Dietrich was forced by police to leave Paris for daring to wear

- that modifies generations ago while the "," before the that intends to demarcate the NEM "in 1985".

KyleWiddison, Please correct me if i am wrong.

Kylewiddson, HumptyDumpty,
However i am not still clear on whether "that" can refer to a list.
Please can you clarify with an example?


Thanks,
Chechaxo


Chechaxo-

You are correct about 'that' modifying 'generations ago' and the commas creating the non-essential modifier.

'That' (when acting as a noun modifier) and 'which' will modify the closest noun, so 'that'/'which' will not modify an entire list (without some extra effort). Here is an example: I went to the store, the restaurant, and the ice cream shop that recently opened. The clause "that recently opened" attaches to the closest noun, which is 'ice cream shop'. We could move the clause around to modify the different elements. I went to the store, the restaurant that recently opened, and the ice cream shop. Here, only the restaurant is modified. If we wanted to modify all three we have to be a bit more creative. I went to the store, the restaurant, and the ice cream shop, all of which were recently opened. [I don't really like that construction at all and wouldn't expect to see it on the GMAT].

KW
_________________


Kyle Widdison | Manhattan GMAT Instructor | Utah


Manhattan GMAT Discount | Manhattan GMAT Course Reviews | View Instructor Profile



1 KUDOS received
Manhattan GMAT Instructor
User avatar
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 403
Followers: 178

Kudos [?]: 241 [1] , given: 4

Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink] New post 30 Apr 2013, 08:34
1
This post received
KUDOS
Expert's post
chechaxo wrote:
Hello again!

During the course of my preparation many a times, I came across the structures -"For Which", "In Which", "From Which"....

My question - Just like "WHICH", do "FOR WHICH", "IN WHICH" and "FROM WHICH" have to modify the NOUN immediately preceding these constructions?

Please, can someone explain with an example?

Thanks in Advance.
Chechaxo


Chechaxo-
Yes, it's the same situation with these variations of 'which'. Here are some examples:

The Forbidden City in Beijing, from which the emperors ruled by heavenly mandate...
The Declaration of Independence, in which the American Colonies declare independence from Great Britian...

The 'which' still modifies the preceding noun, there is just the inclusion of a preposition that is necessary for proper meaning. If you said, "the Forbidden City in Beijing, which the emperors ruled by heavenly mandate" the meaning changes from Beijing being the capital city of the emperors to Beijing being the only area under the rule of the emperors.

KW
_________________


Kyle Widdison | Manhattan GMAT Instructor | Utah


Manhattan GMAT Discount | Manhattan GMAT Course Reviews | View Instructor Profile



Intern
Intern
Joined: 19 Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Location: United States
Concentration: Operations, Entrepreneurship
Schools: INSEAD '14
WE: Consulting (Manufacturing)
Followers: 0

Kudos [?]: 7 [0], given: 8

Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink] New post 30 Apr 2013, 10:43
Thanks Kyle,

Your explanation perfectly addresses my questions.

Cheers,
Chechaxo
Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers   [#permalink] 30 Apr 2013, 10:43
    Similar topics Author Replies Last post
Similar
Topics:
New posts SC: A question about relative pronouns ggarr 5 01 May 2007, 01:51
New posts 4 Experts publish their posts in the topic parallel modifiers - relative pronouns catfreak 3 11 Sep 2012, 02:54
Moved topic 1 Experts publish their posts in the topic Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers chechaxo 7 29 Apr 2013, 10:10
New posts Relative pronoun modifier and prepositions. ramannanda9 1 29 Jul 2013, 20:08
This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies. New Experts publish their posts in the topic Relative Pronoun : What does they modify ? Noun closer to SkandanNinja19 1 05 Apr 2014, 22:37
Display posts from previous: Sort by

Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers

  Question banks Downloads My Bookmarks Reviews Important topics  


GMAT Club MBA Forum Home| About| Privacy Policy| Terms and Conditions| GMAT Club Rules| Contact| Sitemap

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group and phpBB SEO

Kindly note that the GMAT® test is a registered trademark of the Graduate Management Admission Council®, and this site has neither been reviewed nor endorsed by GMAC®.