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San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared

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San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 30 Sep 2010, 05:18
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San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared Los Angeles a world city, yet within twenty years a powerful municipal had made this boast a reality .

yet within twenty years a powerful municipal had made this boast a reality
yet within twenty years a powerful municipal made this boast a reality
yet a powerful municipal within twenty years will make this boast a reality
yet this boast had become a reality within twenty years because of a powerful will municipally
yet within twenty years a municipal will had made this boast a powerful reality
+1 Kudos if you like the question and if you want the OE :) . this is from Kaplan and the OA is indeed correct!
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 30 Sep 2010, 08:23
I opted for B, why do we need past perfect participle here.. ?

I think simple past tense is better in this sentence then past perfect... can anyone explain ?
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 30 Sep 2010, 08:30
I opted for B. Simple past is enough right?
Correct me if i am wrong.
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 30 Sep 2010, 10:16
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hemanthp wrote:
San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared Los Angeles a world city, yet within twenty years a powerful municipal had made this boast a reality .

yet within twenty years a powerful municipal had made this boast a reality
yet within twenty years a powerful municipal made this boast a reality
yet a powerful municipal within twenty years will make this boast a reality
yet this boast had become a reality within twenty years because of a powerful will municipally
yet within twenty years a municipal will had made this boast a powerful reality
+1 Kudos if you like the question and if you want the OE :) . this is from Kaplan and the OA is indeed correct!



OA can't be A.

All the options are wrong IMO! I think there is something missing in the sentence!

See, I believe everyone knows when to use past perfect tense.

In this sentence, 'the municipal making this boast a reality occurred after San Franciscans mocked the claim.' I don't think we can have the later part in past perfect! It would be fine if the first part is in past perfect but then that part we can't change as that part is not underlined.

Please check out the questions again, IMO a piece of information is missing in this question.
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 30 Sep 2010, 10:53
kissthegmat wrote:


OA can't be A.

All the options are wrong IMO! I think there is something missing in the sentence!

See, I believe everyone knows when to use past perfect tense.

In this sentence, 'the municipal making this boast a reality occurred after San Franciscans mocked the claim.' I don't think we can have the later part in past perfect! It would be fine if the first part is in past perfect but then that part we can't change as that part is not underlined.

Please check out the questions again, IMO a piece of information is missing in this question.


I totally agree with kissthegmat there is no sense in using past perfect here.
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 30 Sep 2010, 11:21
I have also PMed the Kaplan representative here on this forum to look into this question. Hope we'll listen from Kaplan representative soon.
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 30 Sep 2010, 12:17
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My understanding of this unusual grammatical construction is that we can read 'within twenty years' as 'before twenty years passed'. Thus, focusing only on the second clause after the comma, the earliest event is the boast becoming reality. Since the boast becomes reality before that time finishes passing, the perfect tense is appropriate (though not mandatory).

Hope this helps!
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 30 Sep 2010, 13:13
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KapTeacherEli wrote:
My understanding of this unusual grammatical construction is that we can read 'within twenty years' as 'before twenty years passed'. Thus, focusing only on the second clause after the comma, the earliest event is the boast becoming reality. Since the boast becomes reality before that time finishes passing, the perfect tense is appropriate (though not mandatory).

Hope this helps!


This sounds odd. Even if anyone could infer that 'within twenty years' is 'before twenty years passed' it is still (as you mentioned) unnecessary. And as far as I remember perfect is only used when doing otherwise distort meaning or causes and ambiguity regarding the occurrence of events. Both do not happen here, the sentence is perfectly clear when using the simple tense. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 30 Sep 2010, 13:20
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rafi wrote:
KapTeacherEli wrote:
My understanding of this unusual grammatical construction is that we can read 'within twenty years' as 'before twenty years passed'. Thus, focusing only on the second clause after the comma, the earliest event is the boast becoming reality. Since the boast becomes reality before that time finishes passing, the perfect tense is appropriate (though not mandatory).

Hope this helps!


This sounds odd. Even if anyone could infer that 'within twenty years' is 'before twenty years passed' it is still (as you mentioned) unnecessary. And as far as I remember perfect is only used when doing otherwise distort meaning or causes and ambiguity regarding the occurrence of events. Both do not happen here, the sentence is perfectly clear when using the simple tense. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Hi rafi,

You've got the right idea, but it's too narrow. The perfect tense is only required in those circumstances, but it can still be correctly used if the meaning is clear from other context.



See http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/pastperfect.html
Quote:
If the Past Perfect action did occur at a specific time, the Simple Past can be used instead of the Past Perfect when "before" or "after" is used in the sentence. The words "before" and "after" actually tell you what happens first, so the Past Perfect is optional. For this reason, both sentences below are correct.

Examples:

She had visited her Japanese relatives once in 1993 before she moved in with them in 1996.
She visited her Japanese relatives once in 1993 before she moved in with them in 1996.

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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 30 Sep 2010, 13:27
KapTeacherEli wrote:
Hi rafi,

You've got the right idea, but it's too narrow. The perfect tense is only required in those circumstances, but it can still be correctly used if the meaning is clear from other context.



See http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/pastperfect.html
Quote:
If the Past Perfect action did occur at a specific time, the Simple Past can be used instead of the Past Perfect when "before" or "after" is used in the sentence. The words "before" and "after" actually tell you what happens first, so the Past Perfect is optional. For this reason, both sentences below are correct.

Examples:

She had visited her Japanese relatives once in 1993 before she moved in with them in 1996.
She visited her Japanese relatives once in 1993 before she moved in with them in 1996.


OK, so according to that there are two correct answers in the answer choices in this question.
When I see two correct answers like these two and I remember that the GMAT prefers simplicity I will choose answer choice B and not A. So why is A the OA?
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 30 Sep 2010, 13:55
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OK, so according to that there are two correct answers in the answer choices in this question.
When I see two correct answers like these two and I remember that the GMAT prefers simplicity I will choose answer choice B and not A. So why is A the OA?
Excellent question, rafi. The answer is that I'm not reading carefully enough! The exception that I cited applies to sentences with specified times, which this sentence lacks. Good catch, and thanks for pointing it out.

That being said, the past perfect tense is used to stress that one event happens before another--again, in this case, before the 20 years passes. The 'had been' past perfect is not limited exclusively to cases where it's omission would make the sentence ambiguous. For that reason, the word 'within' in the past will take the past perfect tense. Here's a couple of examples lifted from periodicals:
Quote:
He won the lottery and moved to California. Within five years, he had filed for bankruptcy.

Within five years he had another congregation at work not far from his home.
[/quote]If you're not convinced that it's grammatically necessary, then chalk it up to idiomatic language--but the 'had' tense is required here.
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 30 Sep 2010, 14:16
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KapTeacherEli wrote:
Excellent question, rafi. The answer is that I'm not reading carefully enough! The exception that I cited applies to sentences with specified times, which this sentence lacks. Good catch, and thanks for pointing it out.

That being said, the past perfect tense is used to stress that one event happens before another--again, in this case, before the 20 years passes. The 'had been' past perfect is not limited exclusively to cases where it's omission would make the sentence ambiguous. For that reason, the word 'within' in the past will take the past perfect tense. Here's a couple of examples lifted from periodicals:
Quote:
He won the lottery and moved to California. Within five years, he had filed for bankruptcy.

Within five years he had another congregation at work not far from his home.
If you're not convinced that it's grammatically necessary, then chalk it up to idiomatic language--but the 'had' tense is required here.


Thanks, I now got it. It is the idiomatic language that confused me to thinking that the 'within twenty years' does not represent an event for which it is necessary to define a past perfect when talking about another event.
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 30 Sep 2010, 19:16
Thanks KapTeacherEli and rafi. It was nice to read your discussion.
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 01 Oct 2010, 06:29
Am I the only one who thinks that the problem with this sentence is "a powerful municipal", rather than the verb form? "Municipal" is an adjective, not a noun, and using it like a noun in this way makes it sound like some unnamed, powerful force just decided within twenty years that LA was a world city. It should say something along the lines of "yet within twenty years, LA becoming a world city made this boast a reality." I chose (E), because it's the only one that has a definite subject ("a municipal will" - in other words, LA made itself into a world city through the power of its own will).

hemanthp wrote:
San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared Los Angeles a world city, yet within twenty years a powerful municipal had made this boast a reality .

yet within twenty years a powerful municipal had made this boast a reality
yet within twenty years a powerful municipal made this boast a reality
yet a powerful municipal within twenty years will make this boast a reality
yet this boast had become a reality within twenty years because of a powerful will municipally
yet within twenty years a municipal will had made this boast a powerful reality
+1 Kudos if you like the question and if you want the OE :) . this is from Kaplan and the OA is indeed correct!
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 01 Oct 2010, 09:39
I fell for B!
after some more reading I noticed why A is right.

I hope not to see such a thing on the real test :-$
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 12 Oct 2010, 09:54
Just two questions.

1). I have found that another Kaplan instructor explained the issue quite differently: http://www.beatthegmat.com/past-perfect-t55356.html
Looks like she is inversing the sequence of two events. Am I right thinking that she is not exactly right?

2). I have read in some reliable resourse that if two events occured VERY long time ago, say 1 000 000 years ago, we have to use did and did rather than did and had done. So, If we were given THE SAME constructed ans-choises but there were a question speaking about events occured in prehistoric times, would we still have to chose (A)? Or (B) would be preferable because of the antiquity?

Thanks.
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 12 Oct 2010, 10:54
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Financier wrote:
Just two questions.

1). I have found that another Kaplan instructor explained the issue quite differently: http://www.beatthegmat.com/past-perfect-t55356.html
Looks like she is inversing the sequence of two events. Am I right thinking that she is not exactly right?

2). I have read in some reliable resourse that if two events occured VERY long time ago, say 1 000 000 years ago, we have to use did and did rather than did and had done. So, If we were given THE SAME constructed ans-choises but there were a question speaking about events occured in prehistoric times, would we still have to chose (A)? Or (B) would be preferable because of the antiquity?

Thanks.
Hi Financier,

That wasn't another instructor--that was me :-)

And I'm pretty sure I said the same thing both times--we are considering the second clause, in which 'becoming reality' is an event in the past that happens before 'twenty years', and is therefore correct in the past perfect. If I mis-typed in either explanation and introduced any confusion, I apologize, but it seems to me that I was consistent!
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 12 Oct 2010, 11:00
KapTeacherEli wrote:
Financier wrote:
Just two questions.

1). I have found that another Kaplan instructor explained the issue quite differently: http://www.beatthegmat.com/past-perfect-t55356.html
Looks like she is inversing the sequence of two events. Am I right thinking that she is not exactly right?

2). I have read in some reliable resourse that if two events occured VERY long time ago, say 1 000 000 years ago, we have to use did and did rather than did and had done. So, If we were given THE SAME constructed ans-choises but there were a question speaking about events occured in prehistoric times, would we still have to chose (A)? Or (B) would be preferable because of the antiquity?

Thanks.
Hi Financier,

That wasn't another instructor--that was me :-)

And I'm pretty sure I said the same thing both times--we are considering the second clause, in which 'becoming reality' is an event in the past that happens before 'twenty years', and is therefore correct in the past perfect. If I mis-typed in either explanation and introduced any confusion, I apologize, but it seems to me that I was consistent!


I alredy figured out my mistake and started to correct my post, but you are faster :) Could you answer my second question about antiquity?
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 12 Oct 2010, 11:03
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I alredy figured out my mistake and started to correct my post, but you are faster :) Could you answer my second question about antiquity?
Sure thing!

I've never heard of such a rule, nor seen it on the GMAT, which means you probably don't need to worry about it. However, English is a fantastically complex language, so it's entirely possible that you're correct; I'd love to see the source of that rule if you can track it down.

Hope that helps!
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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared [#permalink] New post 13 Oct 2010, 06:44
Quote:

I've never heard of such a rule, nor seen it on the GMAT, which means you probably don't need to worry about it. However, English is a fantastically complex language, so it's entirely possible that you're correct; I'd love to see the source of that rule if you can track it down.

Hope that helps!


Of course, I headed to find you the rule I was talking about - I wanted to show that I was right. Actually, I was wrong:). On the picture below MGMAT is talking about another case. Anyway, I feel good because this dialog helped me fix a flaw in my reasoning. Thank you very much.

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Re: San Franciscans of the 1890s mocked the claim that declared   [#permalink] 13 Oct 2010, 06:44
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